KS14S Speed Throttling

[Marty Backe]

Here's a short video that demonstrates speed throttling on my KS14S. It's bad enough that it was advertised to reduce speed (via incessant beeping and tilt-back) at 50% battery, but it turns out that speed reduction occurs between 70 and 80% battery.

It's linear once it starts. It slowly decreases the maximum speed from 19mph to 9mph at 30% battery. So once the battery gets in the sub 40% the wheel really isn't fun to ride anymore.

So this video is for you @KingSong69

 

[HermanTheGerman]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Here's a short video that demonstrates speed throttling on my KS14S. It's bad enough that it was advertised to reduce speed (via incessant beeping and tilt-back) at 50% battery, but it turns out that speed reduction occurs between 70 and 80% battery.

It's linear once it starts. It slowly decreases the maximum speed from 19mph to 9mph at 30% battery. So once the battery gets in the sub 40% the wheel really isn't fun to ride anymore.

So this video is for you @KingSong69

 

Ouch, that's strange, because I thought the 14S has the same engine and batteries like the 16S ?

On my KS16B speed reduction starts somewhere around 25% battery, and reduces the speed down to 20 km/h, also in a linear way, which is acceptable.

[US69]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Here's a short video that demonstrates speed throttling on my KS14S. It's bad enough that it was advertised to reduce speed (via incessant beeping and tilt-back) at 50% battery, but it turns out that speed reduction occurs between 70 and 80% battery.

It's linear once it starts. It slowly decreases the maximum speed from 19mph to 9mph at 30% battery. So once the battery gets in the sub 40% the wheel really isn't fun to ride anymore.

So this video is for you @KingSong69

 

Thanx Marty!

That is definitly not the correct wheel behaviour i know from the KS14d/s!!! (Like we have discussed before)

Btw.: It is not that i did'nt believe you about that!..it is just that my Point is:

Correct (or wanted/reported) Speed reduction on the KS14d/s should be to slow it down at 50% Batterie to 20kmh....and that you would be able to drive 20kmh up until 10% battery!

I have asked some of the KS sellers i know....nobody of them EVER had a Speed reducement experienced or reported from 70-80%....Kingsong would and SHOULD be killed on all social Networks if one of their wheels behave like that!!!

What your wheel does/show here is absolutly ridiculous and -as far as i know- not the normal Ks14d/s behaviour....

Feeling with you ;-)

50 minutes ago, Asylsteirer said:

Ouch, that's strange, because I thought the 14S has the same engine and batteries like the 16S ?

On my KS16B speed reduction starts somewhere around 25% battery, and reduces the speed down to 20 km/h, also in a linear way, which is acceptable.

It is on all KS wheels different and depending on the Motor abilities under low battery:

KS16S-max 35kmh--reducing starts at 40% step by step going lineardown

KS16B/C-max 30kmh-FW 1.25 recducing starts at 25-20% step by step going linear down, FW .123 reducing starts by 40% step by step going linear down

KS14d/s-FW over 1.00->max 30kmh-reducing starts by 50% (should do it linear)

KS18s-max 50kmh-reducing starts by 40% step by step going linear down, 20%->still 30-35kmh

Edited September 14, 2017 by KingSong69

[meepmeepmayer]

Which firmware, Marty?

[US69]

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Which firmware, Marty?

newest...1.0.4

[meepmeepmayer]

Hmm... defective wheel then?

[Jason McNeil]

There's no denying this speed throttling on v1.04 is inexpertly applied by King Song. 

Without giving the matter too much thought, the King Song Engineers used batches of the 14D boards to the 14S. If the original specification was maintained, this would be adequate, but on receiving feedback from a high-volume distributor in Asia that the speed reduction threshold of 55v (on the 14D) was too close to the safety margin, they bumped this up to 60v in v1.04 [Edit: or earlier]—without notifying us of the new restrictions. 

Now, because the firmware of the 14D & 14S is identical, & the 14S have a serial number that does not differentiate itself from the 14D, I'm told that it's proving to be problematic. For some reason, that I don't fully comprehend, KS say there's a dependency on the release of the new App to push the corrected firmware down to the 14D/14S.

I've been lobbying very hard lately to have sensible limiters put back in place. The current agreed position is:

1. 14S: 30kph until 55v, then stepped reduced down, similar to the 16S
2. 14D: 30kph until 58v, subsequent stepped reduction in speed as one would expect 

We're in the process of placing a fairly large 200 unit Wheel order, & getting a prompt fix for the 14 series is a prerequisite before going ahead with this deal. 

On the credit side of the equation, improved replacement side-pads with flush surfaces (reducing the pressure point at the top shins) are being produced & should be available in the next several weeks. 

  

Edited September 14, 2017 by Jason McNeil

[US69]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Without giving the matter too much thought, the King Song Engineers used batches of the 14D boards to the 14S. If the original specification was maintained, this would be adequate, but on receiving feedback from a high-volume distributor in Asia that the speed reduction threshold of 55v (on the 14D) was too close to the safety margin, they bumped this up to 60v in v1.04—without notifying us of the new restrictions. 

Now, because the firmware of the 14D & 14S is identical, & the 14S have a serial number that does not differentiate itself from the 14D, I'm told that it's proving to be problematic. For some reason, that I don't fully comprehend, KS say there's a dependency on the release of the new App to push the corrected firmware down to the 14D/14S.

That would all be ok, if Marty would not Report about a Speed reduction at 70-80%, which is about 63Volt!

60Volt would be 50%...

 

And just as additional Information:

The Speed reducement is/was set on the 14d/s since Firmware 1.02...not 1.04

14D and 14S always have the same board, the same Serial number system,  as D and S only differs by the sidepads and the size of Batterie....From the serialnumber you CAN see if it is a 14d or S...on this serialnumber for example the "mileage left" is calculated:

Serialnumber starting with:

14d1... 340wh->14d

14d2... 420wh->14d

14d3... 680wh->14s

14d4...820wh->14s

In fact it is all "S" series are using the letter "d" in the serialnumber ( not sure about the 16S, , but 14d/s and 18s do)

And at last: New beta app is allready available...one of the main -technical- differences: If you ever fail to "install" a Firmware...now the app is able to redo the process...no Need to contact seller anymore as it was before :-)

 

Appreciate your working on changing the Speed behaviour...hopefully they will listen...

Edited September 14, 2017 by KingSong69

[steve454]

9 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Here's a short video that demonstrates speed throttling on my KS14S. It's bad enough that it was advertised to reduce speed (via incessant beeping and tilt-back) at 50% battery, but it turns out that speed reduction occurs between 70 and 80% battery.

It's linear once it starts. It slowly decreases the maximum speed from 19mph to 9mph at 30% battery. So once the battery gets in the sub 40% the wheel really isn't fun to ride anymore.

That watch is great, shows instantaneous battery level.  I noticed when accelerating , the faster the acceleration, the more battery sag, I think it went from 62% to 44% a couple times, very fast like one or two seconds, then when low load cruising the voltage recovered to 62%.

[Marty Backe]

55 minutes ago, steve454 said:

That watch is great, shows instantaneous battery level.  I noticed when accelerating , the faster the acceleration, the more battery sag, I think it went from 62% to 44% a couple times, very fast like one or two seconds, then when low load cruising the voltage recovered to 62%.

That's why I recommend the Pebble watch to all Gotway & KingSong owners. I use it all the time. 

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

There's no denying this speed throttling on v1.04 is inexpertly applied by King Song. 

Without giving the matter too much thought, the King Song Engineers used batches of the 14D boards to the 14S. If the original specification was maintained, this would be adequate, but on receiving feedback from a high-volume distributor in Asia that the speed reduction threshold of 55v (on the 14D) was too close to the safety margin, they bumped this up to 60v in v1.04 [Edit: or earlier]—without notifying us of the new restrictions. 

Now, because the firmware of the 14D & 14S is identical, & the 14S have a serial number that does not differentiate itself from the 14D, I'm told that it's proving to be problematic. For some reason, that I don't fully comprehend, KS say there's a dependency on the release of the new App to push the corrected firmware down to the 14D/14S.

I've been lobbying very hard lately to have sensible limiters put back in place. The current agreed position is:

1. 14S: 30kph until 55v, then stepped reduced down, similar to the 16S
2. 14D: 30kph until 58v, subsequent stepped reduction in speed as one would expect 

We're in the process of placing a fairly large 200 unit Wheel order, & getting a prompt fix for the 14 series is a prerequisite before going ahead with this deal. 

On the credit side of the equation, improved replacement side-pads with flush surfaces (reducing the pressure point at the top shins) are being produced & should be available in the next several weeks. 

  

Thanks for the additional info Jason. It's discouraging to read that there's a possibility my 14S will remain like this. Except for the speed throttling this wheel was a 10 for 10 in my eyes. But we buy wheels to ride and no matter how great the other features, if it's a slow wheel it's a crappy wheel (for me anyway). I should have kept my 14C 

[Jason McNeil]

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

discouraging to read that there's a possibility my 14S will remain like this

We're not going to let his happen. In the hierarchy of possible outcomes, one scenario, further down the list, involves Expressing a batch of 14S boards with improved speed reductions. 

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I should have kept my 14C 

It ought to be a first-principle of Development where the team Manager is constantly striving to ensure that, from the Customer's standpoint, the new product that is replacing an earlier one commands a substantial superiority to it. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Jason McNeil

[US69]

23 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Thanks for the additional info Jason. It's discouraging to read that there's a possibility my 14S will remain like this. Except for the speed throttling this wheel was a 10 for 10 in my eyes. But we buy wheels to ride and no matter how great the other features, if it's a slow wheel it's a crappy wheel (for me anyway). I should have kept my 14C 

Didn't you read that?

2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

 

From the serialnumber you CAN see if it is a 14d or S...on this serialnumber for example the "mileage left" is calculated:

Serialnumber starting with:

14d1... 340wh->14d

14d2... 420wh->14d

14d3... 680wh->14s

14d4...820wh->14s

That's why i asked for your serialnumber :-)

To Show that the "S" is also a "D" :-) so if Kingsong is willing to make a FW Change....your S definitly can be recognized as "S"

Edited September 14, 2017 by KingSong69

[Marty Backe]

17 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Didn't you read that?

That's why i asked for your serialnumber :-)

To Show that the "S" is also a "D" :-) so if Kingsong is willing to make a FW Change....your S definitly can be recognized as "S"

Yes, my serial number starts KS14D4B1708....

Yet Jason says he's getting pushback from KingSong, that it's not so simple.

I guess we'll find out eventually.

[Raptor]

13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Here's a short video that demonstrates speed throttling on my KS14S. It's bad enough that it was advertised to reduce speed (via incessant beeping and tilt-back) at 50% battery, but it turns out that speed reduction occurs between 70 and 80% battery.

It's linear once it starts. It slowly decreases the maximum speed from 19mph to 9mph at 30% battery. So once the battery gets in the sub 40% the wheel really isn't fun to ride anymore.

So this video is for you @KingSong69

 

Hi!

I really like KingSong's safe and high quality wheels but I like to accelerate aggressively but about this ,kingsong not think !

Once accelerated, very gentle and slow, not  this problem ( for my point and style  , very gentle and slowly   ) and then a speed limitation is like kingsong has been said and promised .

It seems to me that kingsong did not consider one very important point when writing a SW !  The wheel should realize that there is not real discharge the battery ,when there 75% battery is such a wery rapid drop voltage to 50-40% !  The controlboard should read here for this voltage drop, little delay !!!

My KS18 many times, almost with full battery ,in during accelerateing has hit me to the legs ( very agressivly lift the pedals ) due to this incorrect calculation of the system , already 35km / h !  But then, I accelerated further  gentle and then it did not raise pedals before 42km / h  !!!

Edited September 14, 2017 by Raptor

[steve454]

8 minutes ago, Raptor said:

Hi!

I really like KingSong's safe and high quality wheels but I like to accelerate aggressively but about this ,kingsong not think !

Once accelerated, very gentle and slow, not  this problem ( for my point and style  , very gentle and slowly   ) and then a speed limitation is like kingsong has been said and promised .

It seems to me that kingsong did not consider one very important point when writing a SW !  The wheel should realize that there is not real discharge the battery ,when there 75% battery is such a wery rapid drop voltage to 50-40% !  The controlboard should read here for this voltage drop, little delay !!!

My KS18 many times, almost for full battery , has hit me in the legs  Abruptly lift the pedals ) due to this incorrect calculation of the system , already 35km / h !  But then, I accelerated further  gentle and then it did not raise pedals before 42km / h  !!! 

That's what I was thinking also,  the sudden voltage drop makes the pedals raise even if the battery is at 75%.  Slow acceleration does not limit the speed as much.  But fast acceleration drops the voltage so much that the safety limiter kicks in.

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, steve454 said:

That's what I was thinking also,  the sudden voltage drop makes the pedals raise even if the battery is at 75%.  Slow acceleration does not limit the speed as much.  But fast acceleration drops the voltage so much that the safety limiter kicks in.

You are of course correct. I also made a point of doing some slow and steady accelerations to show that it still throttles the speed above 50%.

Therefore, if you ride this wheel very steady with low acceleration it behaves decently enough until you hit the 50%. But it should be noted that I didn't by a KS14"S" (Sport) so that I could not zip around town. I want to zip, zip and zip 

[Raptor]

4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

You are of course correct. I also made a point of doing some slow and steady accelerations to show that it still throttles the speed above 50%.

Therefore, if you ride this wheel very steady with low acceleration it behaves decently enough until you hit the 50%. But it should be noted that I didn't by a KS14"S" (Sport) so that I could not zip around town. I want to zip, zip and zip 

Exactly and unfortunately yes,

Because the SW itself I cannot be changed then I decided to change the situation with capacitors !

4x  powerful 10000uf 100v capacitors  and through the 10AWG  cable !   Inside  KS18 there is space for it .

In a Russian forum, one man has done this and I  also decided to experiment.

I'll let know about the results here in the forum too  !

 

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Raptor said:

Exactly and unfortunately yes,

Because the SW itself I cannot be changed then I decided to change the situation with capacitors !

4x  powerful 10000uf 100v capacitors  and through the 10AWG  cable !   Inside  KS18 there is space for it .

In a Russian forum, one man has done this and I  also decided to experiment.

I'll let know about the results here in the forum too  !

 

Very interesting. I can't say that I'll do this with my KS14S, but I would be interested in learning how it works for you.

[Kalmar]

It seems that new firmware (1.04) is worse than the previous version (1.02) - KS14D

@ToffeeGirl in this topic writes about similar situation with KS14D -> http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/8164-14d-firmware-v104-is-out/?do=findComment&comment=119439
I have KS14D - v1.02 and I do not upgrade to 1.04

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Kalmar

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Kalmar said:

It seems that new firmware (1.04) is worse than the previous version (1.02) - KS14D

@ToffeeGirl in this topic writes about similar situation with KS14D -> http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/8164-14d-firmware-v104-is-out/?do=findComment&comment=119439
I have KS14D - v1.02 and I do not upgrade to 1.04

 

Yes, if 1.02 works then DO NOT UPGRADE.

[novazeus]

On 9/14/2017 at 11:49 AM, Marty Backe said:

That's why I recommend the Pebble watch to all Gotway & KingSong owners. I use it all the time. 

i like the watch too. just went to pebble and it says their not making them anymore

[Marty Backe]

39 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i like the watch too. just went to pebble and it says their not making them anymore

Correct. But the service is still supported and the watches will function even if the company does not exist. That's why you can still buy them new from Amazon for ~$50

If you have an Android phone and can afford the $50, buy one.

[novazeus]

@Marty Backe which model is yours. i like the big screen.

[Michael Vu]

3 hours ago, Kalmar said:

It seems that new firmware (1.04) is worse than the previous version (1.02) - KS14D

@ToffeeGirl in this topic writes about similar situation with KS14D -> http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/8164-14d-firmware-v104-is-out/?do=findComment&comment=119439
I have KS14D - v1.02 and I do not upgrade to 1.04

 

I remember having version 1.01 and  that was better than 1.02. SW version 1.02 starts to limit at 50% for the 14D. I have asked Kingsong about this too and even though they say they have had no problems with sudden cutoffs with 1.01, they wanted to be extra safe with newer versions.