eddiemoy Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 3 hours ago, KingSong69 said: do you have voice on...instead of beeps? yes. i'm guessing i've not stressed the unit enough. i was trying the idling for 30 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 34 minutes ago, Dancer said: It is not logical. It is Gotway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 56 minutes ago, Dancer said: It is not logical. If there are 3 fixed speed alarms, why call the first 2 speed alarms and the third a power alarm. If I was an EUC firmware programmer and my boss told me to put in an 80% power alarm, I would write a routine to constantly calculate the max power and sound the alarm at 80% of that max power. I think this would be very difficult (impossible?). First difficulty: You have a chemical reaction in the battery which provides voltage. As you draw a little current from the battery, the voltage stays constant. When you try to draw too much current, the voltage drops (this is bad). All kinds of things affect the chemical battery's ability to supply current - temperature, level of charge, age, load pattern, etc. Though you might be able to predict ability to supply current, I suspect that it would be very difficult to predict this accurately. I think it's a little like the Schrodinger's Cat problem - until you try, you don't really know for sure. Second difficulty: The EUC power demands fluctuate very quickly/wildly. When you suddenly accelerate, I suspect that the power demand spikes so quickly that there wouldn't be time for an alarm. You could even be decelerating slightly (restoring power) and then accelerate. If you were detecting the voltage drop, by the time you detected it, it would be too late. An alarm wouldn't have time to beep before you'd be on the ground. Even if you were detecting the rise in current demand against a predicted ability for the battery to supply the current, this rise in current demand is happening really fast. Consider this idling test that's being discussed. For each change of direction, the wheel is decelerating (restoring power) until the speed hits 0, then suddenly accelerating hard in the other direction. The transitions are happening in milliseconds, not seconds. You may be able to detect the voltage drop in milliseconds, but you probably need 100 ms to sound an audible alarm. The human rider needs more than 100 ms to react to the audible alarm; so even if you could alarm, it would do no good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caelus Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 3 hours ago, Dancer said: It is not logical. If there are 3 fixed speed alarms, why call the first 2 speed alarms and the third a power alarm. Maybe it was ment to be 80% of the speed at max power? In the newer spec sheets (here for Msuper V3) this alarm name has been changed to "80% of motor effiency". Anyway, I did some more test today with my MCM V3: At full battery and on the flat street I can accelerate till the overspeed alarm. That comes in at around 30km/h (did not measure the speed). So that is significantly lower than the no load case (38km/h). Concluding, at least for my wheel, it is not the case that the overspeed alarm is at a fixed speed. At lower battery or at an incline, the overload alarm kicks in before I can reach the overspeed alarm. The lower the battery or the steeper the incline, the lower is the speed where I get the overload alarm. At below 10% battery I get a low battery alarm (2 beeps) in the case of overload (instead of the regular 3 beeps overload alarm). So my guess is that older Gotway wheels did have the overspeed alarm at fixed speed, maybe just for simplicity, and probably there also wasn't any additional power related alarm. That would be consistent with Jane Mo's specs and also with the reported behavior. However, this seemingly has changed in newer firmware. 2 hours ago, JimB said: I think this would be very difficult (impossible?). You could, for example, trigger the overload alarm if in 10 consecutive measurements the current is above certain threshold. But seemingly, the algorithm is a little more complex and also incorporates battery level. I think it's a quite new idea to make power related alarms (for example, my AirWheel X8, alarm, and finally tiltback kicks in at fixed speed - that's all) and maybe it took a while to get it implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 14 hours ago, eddiemoy said: yes. i'm guessing i've not stressed the unit enough. i was trying the idling for 30 minutes. i have to say i have done that "stress idling" like the KS guy in the video only to my old Ks16, where it trully triggered the voice warning! I am not keen to try it on my 18S in that way...As it is unbelivable stress for the batteries and also for the board compartments, and i dont know why i should weaken them just to get it confirmed that the voice warning is actually there. I better leave that stress to the moments when i really need it, emergency brakings or so :-) I trust KS in that part...i have seen and heard it on the 14d/s, 16, 16s...so i see no reason why it shouldn't be there on the 18S. If you want to try again, go forward...thing is you really just not have to idle, thats not enough,.key is this "snap" movement the KS guy is doing when moving forward.... There is another video existing, where an KS engineer is doing that in a bureau complex to a 16S....for over one minute or more slamming the wheel in this idling move. i personnaly found it quite amazing, what the mosfets/boards are capable on the S series...other/older wheels definitely would have blown the mosfets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 10 hours ago, caelus said: However, this seemingly has changed in newer firmware. I doubt that, Sorry.....Some of my friends are driving the newest iterstions of v3s+ or Acm 84 volt...none of that has a real "overpower" alarm Btw.: which is the production date of your V3? Sticker on the box and/or motor rim number? As the V3 (even when it is a V3v2) can be called all, but not "new"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 13 hours ago, JimB said: Second difficulty: The EUC power demands fluctuate very quickly/wildly. When you suddenly accelerate, I suspect that the power demand spikes so quickly that there wouldn't be time for an alarm. You could even be decelerating slightly (restoring power) and then accelerate. If you were detecting the voltage drop, by the time you detected it, it would be too late. An alarm wouldn't have time to beep before you'd be on the ground. Even if you were detecting the rise in current demand against a predicted ability for the battery to supply the current, this rise in current demand is happening really fast. Thats the exact reason, why an overpower alarm makes no sense! Amps are drawn so heavily on an EUC and spiking up so fast that real (amp related) alarms are never heared or always. Talking about accelerations and hill climbing! Even when KS has a overpower alarm....is quite useless at all!!! you never hear it! And when you hear it, it is on something like this power idling, amd it comes up when the wheel is collapsing or shortly before(so also makes no sense).., On a highspeed setting a real overpower alarm would be quite useless...as it are not the to high amps that make an wheel cutout at highspeed(these are relative low), it is the available voltage to then produced"back-emf voltage" that leads to a highspeed cutout. (For non-believers: Search the Forum, there are quite some -very long- articles about that!) And i guess thats the main reason, why the 3rd -last alarm is just nothing more than a speed alarm...set to something like 80/85% of the standard speed on the wheel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caelus Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 1 hour ago, KingSong69 said: Thats the exact reason, why an overpower alarm makes no sense! I get the overpower alarms. And they are quite helpful to know that you get close to max torque. They are not only amps related. The overpower alarm is also described in the manual. My MCM V3 manual is the same as the one for the Msuper V3, which I could find here (German. Could not find an English version of it), see page 5 and page 14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Just now, caelus said: I get the overpower alarms. And they are quite helpful to know that you get close to max torque. Thy are not only amps related. The overpower alarm is also described in the manual. My MCM V3 manual is the same as the one for the Msuper V3, which I could find here (German. Could not find an English version of it), see page 5 and page 14. Just believe what you want...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 30 minutes ago, caelus said: I get the overpower alarms. And they are quite helpful to know that you get close to max torque. They are not only amps related. The overpower alarm is also described in the manual. My MCM V3 manual is the same as the one for the Msuper V3, which I could find here (German. Could not find an English version of it), see page 5 and page 14. And just a Little hint MY wheel is the MSuper V3...where the last 80% Alarm is at about 36-38kmh...it has a free run of 53kmh...under 75kg it cutsout on a belt at 48kmh... That These alarms are programmed for each wheel on it's own should be clear, or? YOUR wheel is a MCM V3 which has the last 80% Alarm at 30kmh.....which has a free run of 47kmh...under 75kg it cutsout on a belt at 43kmh... And the link is an isnstruction Manual for a Msuper 1500 Watt...NOT for an MCM V3 800Watt...which is totally different... 12 hours ago, caelus said: At full battery and on the flat street I can accelerate till the overspeed alarm. That comes in at around 30km/h (did not measure the speed). So that is significantly lower than the no load case (38km/h). Yes...it behave's exaclty like it is meant to do...as YOUR 3.rd Alarm is not set at 36-38kmh....on an MCM V3 the 3rd and last Alarm is set to 30kmh: And i guess now i am finished with this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caelus Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 1 hour ago, KingSong69 said: Some of my friends are driving the newest iterstions of v3s+ or Acm 84 volt...none of that has a real "overpower" alarm Could be, that the power of these wheels is so high, that they just don't get at that level? You really have to lean to the edge of it. Just doesn't seem plausible, that the Msuper don't have it, when the MCM does, and it also says so in the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, caelus said: Could be, that the power of these wheels is so high, that they just don't get at that level? You really have to lean to the edge of it. Just doesn't seem plausible, that the Msuper don't have it, when the MCM does, and it also says so in the manual. Sometimes i wish These Forum would have an Option to block or ignore some Messages... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caelus Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 3 hours ago, KingSong69 said: Btw.: which is the production date of your V3? Sticker on the box and/or motor rim number? As the V3 (even when it is a V3v2) can be called all, but not "new"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 4 hours ago, caelus said: Could be, that the power of these wheels is so high, that they just don't get at that level? You really have to lean to the edge of it. Could it be that you just do not get it! It is a fundamental property of the electric motors ( that you understand so little about) that Max output power occurs at 50% of no load speed and max torque at zero RPM. The faster you go the more back emf there is opposing the voltage from the battery. The resistance of the electric train remains fairly constant so if the applied voltage goes down so does the current and therefore, obviously to most mere mortals, the power. Over powering a wheel can only really happen if going from backwards to forwards continuously very quickly, so the RPM stays low but power demand very high, or going up a very steep hill very slowly as @Marty Backe demonstrated so well. At high speed you are unable to draw anything near the amount of power you can at low speeds under high acceleration or steep climb so you will NEVER get a true overpower alarm due to speed unless the maximum speed of the wheel is limited to 50% of no load speed - a dumb thing for a manufacturer to do because max efficiency occurs at around 80% of no load speed (I.e. Where power in is closest to power out.) Like @KingSong69 I'm tired of your desire to have the last word even when you have no idea what you are talking about so this is the last word I'm going to say on this subject as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Could we talk about the earth being flat now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EU_Newbie Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 On 9/8/2017 at 4:31 PM, Marty Backe said: Thanks for all the additional info. I agree with you, I suspect the problem occurred because you were pushing it really hard up a pretty steep hill. Don't do that Indeed - have made a big "note to self" on that one now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EU_Newbie Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 On 9/9/2017 at 3:36 AM, JimB said: I think this failure may be typical. New rider gets comfortable with the wheel and tries to demand too much performance. Let's REALLY accelerate this time! I drive a sports car. Some times you just want to rev the engine, pop the clutch, and get hammered back into the seat... but you can't do that with an EUC. With an EUC, you REQUEST power by gently accelerating/decelerating. If you try to DEMAND power, the wheel says "screw you" by violently dumping you on your face. See my post regarding a similar spill in January: My wrist is mostly recovered now. But still not 100%. My learnings: I'm glad I was wearing a helmet I should have been wearing wrist guards (I wear them now) Don't try to force the wheel, accelerate/decelerate more cautiously I get warning beeps at 15mph, top speed is 20mph. I pay attention to the warning beeps and slow down. Glad you weren't hurt. EUCs are great, but always be prepared to fall on your face. Thanks for this Jim B. Yes, glad I was wearing helmet and full pads for sure. The moment I get the beeps now I definitely lay off. Not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 8 hours ago, ir_fuel said: Could we talk about the earth being flat now? There is absolutely no need, its all covered in great detail and clarity here: https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/ Even the recent eclipse proves the earth is flat - allegedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 59 minutes ago, Keith said: There is absolutely no need, its all covered in great detail and clarity here: https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/ Even the recent eclipse proves the earth is flat - allegedly. Thanks for the links man! I was starting to get doubts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caelus Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I gave the overload alarm some more shots: Whenever I lean in hard, the voltage LEDs drop. When there is only 1 LED remaining active and I keep on pushing forward, the overload alarm will kick in, reproducibly. So the alarm seems to be voltage related only (with some hysteresis). Same behavior for all tested speed or inclination. The LEDs react with an delay of approx 1 sec, the overload alarm adds another second, roundabout. So it is an almost instant alarm feedback. But not quick enough to get triggered in the stress test going forwards and backwards. At least, I was not able to produce overload alarm by that. At good battery level, you really need to lean hard to trigger overload alarms. I was shy of doing that on high speed. So only tested it on inclines. The lower the battery level gets, the less lean is required to trigger the overload alarm. At less than half battery I didn't need inclination to trigger the overload alarm. It kicks in on sharp accelaration. At certain battery level I wasn't able to reach the overspeed alarm, because overload alarm got triggered beforehand. Still, the 3rd alarm speed could be easily reached on a mild descend. At 10% battery, you get the overload alarm at around 21km/h, see electro-sport video above at 7:37. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 On 11/09/2017 at 10:27 AM, KingSong69 said: Sometimes i wish These Forum would have an Option to block or ignore some Messages... They do. Go to the menu of your username at the upper right and check out the ignored users submenu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 10 hours ago, caelus said: Whenever I lean in hard, the voltage LEDs drop. When there is only 1 LED remaining active and I keep on pushing forward, the overload alarm will kick in, reproducibly Holy cow... thats the low battery Alarm jumping in then...which btw all other Gotways also have! When you get a good voltage drop and the Batterie sags down under 20% you are not able to drive that fast anymore! On a wheel like the MCM3 with such a small Batterie and such less parallel packages you are going to have that drop and so the Alarm quite often, epecially when you lean in! Gotway has no "overload" Alarm. Point and Out. Your wheelmotor is by the way from begin of September 2016...04.09.2016...so it is produced nearly a year ago! So perhaps you now want to tell me that the overload Alarm is only present on old wheels! 33 minutes ago, Mono said: They do. Go to the menu of your username at the upper right and check out the ignored users submenu. Thanks :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caelus Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 32 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: thats the low battery Alarm jumping in then...which btw all other Gotways also have! Gotway calls it "Maximallastwarnton", see their manual: On 11.9.2017 at 10:01 AM, caelus said: The overpower alarm is also described in the manual. My MCM V3 manual is the same as the one for the Msuper V3, which I could find here (German. Could not find an English version of it), see page 5 and page 14. Might be the same as alarm 6, yes:"6：低压14.4km/h时以上，二秒三声，more than 14.4km/h,low voltage,3 beep 2 seconds" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 39 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: thats the low battery Alarm jumping in then...which btw all other Gotways also have! both cases, low battery and "overload" result from the users perspective into the same problem: the demanded torque risks to exceed the available torque. So I wouldn't mind if they gave the same alarm signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caelus Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Mono said: both cases, low battery and "overload" result from the users perspective into the same problem: the demanded torque risks to exceed the available torque. So I wouldn't mind if they gave the same alarm signal. Yes. I was trying to figure out whether Gotway has some more elaborated overload alarm. And if it is different from the previous alarm 6, ("low voltage"). But obviously it is still voltage related only. So they probably only changed the name, not the implementation? This simple voltage alarm only works as overload alarm, if the voltage drops below the trigger value at max amps. Seemingly, it doesn't do that for models with larger batteries at good battery level. But I would appreciate a detailed test. The 12 Mosfet controller is able to draw 70 Amps, afaik, so at lower battery level you might be able to reach the overload alarm. Anyway, the manual is quite misleading. A more precise overview of the Gotway alarm systematics would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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