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Gotway ACM just died @ 30kph+


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16 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

And I thought I was safe from unexpectedly overpowering the wheel due to the 3rd alarm (if this is really true, but somehow I believe it):cry2:

How does KS do this, do they have a real overpower warning?

Crazy how the manufacturers don't even give such simple info. Who do we have to ask to get a definitive answer for Gotway wheels?

KS has a voice "caution overpower" warning...

I only get it to trigger if i grap a post and do constant idling..no normal idling, more like smashing the wheel back and forth very hardly trying it to cutout....then i got the "caution overpower"!

Have not been driving hard enough to hear it :-)

Btw.: i did this "smashing idling test" also to my V3....no beeps, but i got it that far, that the wheel "snaps" over...doing a mini-cutout, with directly recovering. Very disappointing....(but its the 67volt model!)

 

I asked GW Linnea\Jane back in October 2016....that was a time, when these both were much more responsive to active EUC drivers. I guess nowadays.....its a bit harder to get this question answered

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43 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

This better be true only for the older models!!!!!:furious:

@Marty Backe Since you only use the 3rd alarm on your Gotways, can you tell if they always occur at the same speed, or not and thus are in some way power/torque/battery-related?

 

33 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

I am pretty sure his answer is that he never hears them :-)

I have said that i asked that for my wheel...and i personal can only confirm that for my V3....but AFAIK this is for all GW models, that they call it the "80% alarm"....but that it is just coded at about 80% speed of each wheel. But hey...who cares ;-)

Wow @KingSong69, you know me well :thumbup: I never hear my alarms (except on the 14S :crying:) because I never ride at the upper speed limits. I ride fast, but not too fast :D

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7 hours ago, EU_Newbie said:

Thanks everyone. I'll take a stab here at each of the questions in the thread - combining them into one single reply to make it easier for everyone to read and follow:

  1. Where is your ACM from (dealer)? Is it new or used?
    • It is new. 1.5 weeks old. Bought on eBay from a regular seller of these but I am not sure I'd call them a dealer - maybe, maybe not. But it was new. Version 2. Has the new grippy style pedals on it as well. I've not taken it apart to see if it is indeed the better 12 mosfet version but I would assume so.
  2. What version ACM is this, 67V or 84V?
    • It is a 680wh
  3. What is your skill level or month(s)/year(s) riding EUCs?
    • I've only been riding for a few weeks (hence my handle EU_Newbie). But picked it up quickly and have been riding every day. This was the first time I've taken it 4mi+ and pushed the wheel this hard.
  4. What was the battery levels when you started and crashed?
    • Battery at the start of the ride was 100%. After the crash it is sitting at 90%. BUT, digging deeper into the settings I found that the wheel now thinks it only has 2.4km on it for miles ridden... about the distance back to house after the wreck plus a test run. This might imply a total reset of the system.
  5. How hard were you accelerating?
    • Very hard. About as hard as I have ridden it. 
  6. Was the wheel still powered on when you went to go pick it up post crash?
    • I wish I could recall specifically - was focusing on other things like wounds. If I had to say, it may have still been on -- but the answer to #4 above with the system resetting to zero lifetime km in the app may imply otherwise.
  7. Did you hit anything, bump, etc, before you went down?
    • No bumps. Smoothest pavement I've been able to find which was why I had (mistakenly) felt this as a good place to test out giving it the speed. 
  8. Was there any oscillation / vibration when traveling high speeds before going down?
    • No
  9. it really doesn't run smooth now anymore?
    • It actually does feel smooth still. No change to the ride quality that I can tell. 
  10. it is scratching against the shell now alltime?
    • No. Only at certain points in the rotation (albeit many). 
  11. How steep of a hill? I will say that 30km/h up a hill (depending on the hill) can consume lots of power. When the wheel has no more power to give, it stops balancing. I myself avoid hard accelerations (or excessive speeds) when going up hill or down hill.
    • About 20 degrees. This is sounding to me like the issue. And this is clearly good / important advice.
  12. This quite presumably is no failure of the wheel - just an non advertised intrinsic property of each electronic motor: the higher the load (acceleration, going uphill) and/or the lower the battery voltage (roughly left capacity) the lower the maximum possible speed. Gotway advertices maximum speed for quite low load with full batteries - one has to adopt this downwards depending on load and battery state to still drive safely.
    • Similar to above. I just wish I wasn't such a newbie at this and had known about this. 
  13. This intrinsic characteristic of electric motors leads to all the questions of the other posters here in this topic - to "reveal" if it was a "normal" behaviour of the wheel (which a new driver normaly does and cannot  know anything about - even if one would read the manual...) or really some failure ...
    • Thanks -- helps me feel at least a little bit less like a schmuck for not knowing. ;)
  14. If you had good luck its just bend plastics of the cover which rubs - if you had bad luck it is, as already mentioned a "bend" axle or metalic frame part. The second case has to be replaced, for a plastic cover problem some tinkering should be sufficient.
    • Given that it rides smoothly, I plan to try and ticker with the plastic a bit today and see if I can improve it or not. Hoping that's all it is. 

Hopefully that provides enough context. I'm wondering if it is simply never OK to push it hard, level ground or otherwise? Thanks for all the helpful comments and questions. Any other thoughts are welcomed. 

J

Thanks for all the additional info. I agree with you, I suspect the problem occurred because you were pushing it really hard up a pretty steep hill. Don't do that ;)

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2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

And I thought I was safe from unexpectedly overpowering the wheel due to the 3rd alarm (if this is really true, but somehow I believe it):cry2:

How does KS do this, do they have a real overpower warning?

Crazy how the manufacturers don't even give such simple info. Who do we have to ask to get a definitive answer for Gotway wheels?

I've had one alarm from my V8 so far related to overpower. If going fast (27-28kph) and I hit a bigger bump in the road it gives the overspeed alarm sound but no tiltback. Looking in the log it says something like "high current draw at high speed alert".

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4 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

I've had one alarm from my V8 so far related to overpower. If going fast (27-28kph) and I hit a bigger bump in the road it gives the overspeed alarm sound but no tiltback. Looking in the log it says something like "high current draw at high speed alert".

Even at low speeds or stationary, when too much pressure is put on the footrests of my V8 to accelerate, the alarm will also come on (despite nowhere being near top speed). I always ease off when alarm comes on, for safety. RTB! I've been dumped by my X3 before, so I don't push past the alarm anymore.

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4 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Believe it or not, the 80% alarm on the GW's (at least on my V3) isrelative hard coded alarm at about 36-38kmh!

Has nothing to do with current or torque...Gotway just calls it the "80% alarm".

I answered both Linnea and Jane when i received my V3 in October 2016 and they both said its not batterie/ amps or torque related....

My MCM V3 does give me alarm 3 beeps at 38km/h at no load and full battery by lift test. It cuts out at 47km/h. These speeds are dependent on battery level. Under load, I am 95kg, smooth flat road, I get the alarm around 28km/h. All app speed. On hills, the alarm comes in at much lower speed. I am not sure, whether that is the same beep, will investigate that again. I also did not test it any further, so I can't tell if or when it does tilt back or finally cut out.

There are several bench test of electro-sport.de that test the alarms and the cut out under load, simulated by a weight rack (see their youtube channel). Unfortunately their test bench cannot handle tilt back. As soon as the wheel tilts back, it is pushed down by the weight rack, so it abruptly speeds up and then cuts out. This cut out occurs at much lower speed than the no load cut out. In case of MCM3 V2 it was 43km/h with 75kg weight at full battery (instead of 47km/h without load). It does not tilt back, see this video! As battery depletes it will give alarm and tilt back. In this example it was approx 23km/h at 10% battery. Then it tilted back, accelarated to 38km/h and cut out.  

So what is the algorithm of these tilt backs, repespectively cut outs? They do, apparently, depend on battery level and load.

It however does not cut out on high peeks of current, as EUC_extreme has tested. That also implies, that it does not cut out on voltage drop. Newer model Gotway batteries also don't have a low voltage protection, afaik.
Edit: This test for ACM 84V shows 70A peeks (=5880W) without alarm.

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33 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

I've had one alarm from my V8 so far related to overpower. If going fast (27-28kph) and I hit a bigger bump in the road it gives the overspeed alarm sound but no tiltback. Looking in the log it says something like "high current draw at high speed alert".

We heard that during our last group ride. @noisycarlos was borrowing @Stan Onymous's V8 and he had  the alarm momentary go off. It was loud as hell and scared us. Guess they aren't taking any chances.

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8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

We heard that during our last group ride. @noisycarlos was borrowing @Stan Onymous's V8 and he had  the alarm momentary go off. It was loud as hell and scared us. Guess they aren't taking any chances.

I've hit similar bumps at lower speeds and not heard the alert. Based on the text in the Wheellog data it would seem this alert requires speed and a high load.

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20 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:
56 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

 

We heard that during our last group ride. @noisycarlos was borrowing @Stan Onymous's V8 and he had  the alarm momentary go off. It was loud as hell and scared us. Guess

I get that alarm all the time! It sounds like an old landline phone that was left off the hook. Inmotion is very thrifty licensing its default sounds. I usually say something like "your phones off the hook." to anybody near me. It also sounds off when I take a sidewalk jump and it flies more than a foot in the air. It tilts back pretty well too and shuts off if maximun spin is reached for very long when lifting it without disengaging the wheel with a safety button under the handle. I have not made evil knevil jumps with it and do not plan on it either being afraid that it will shutdown in mid air. :efee96588e:

It definately has the tiltback, but you really have to be going fast. As soon as you go over the 30kp/h it seems to just take over and lean back. This has happened while going downhill on crystal springs road in Griffith park to me. Its actually much mellower than the kingsong tiltback but just as effective.

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1 hour ago, caelus said:

My MCM V3 does give me alarm 3 beeps at 38km/h at no load and full battery by lift test. It cuts out at 47km/h. These speeds are dependent on battery level. Under load, I am 95kg, smooth flat road, I get the alarm around 28km/h. All app speed. On hills, the alarm comes in at much lower speed. I am not sure, whether that is the same beep, will investigate that again. I also did not test it any further, so I can't tell if or when it does tilt back or finally cut out.

There are several bench test of electro-sport.de that test the alarms and the cut out under load, simulated by a weight rack (see their youtube channel). Unfortunately their test bench cannot handle tilt back. As soon as the wheel tilts back, it is pushed down by the weight rack, so it abruptly speeds up and then cuts out. This cut out occurs at much lower speed than the no load cut out. In case of MCM3 V2 it was 43km/h with 75kg weight at full battery (instead of 47km/h without load). It does not tilt back, see this video! As battery depletes it will give alarm and tilt back. In this example it was approx 23km/h at 10% battery. Then it tilted back, accelarated to 38km/h and cut out.  

So what is the algorithm of these tilt backs, repespectively cut outs? They do, apparently, depend on battery level and load.

It however does not cut out on high peeks of current, as EUC_extreme has tested. That also implies, that it does not cut out on voltage drop. Newer model Gotway batteries also don't have a low voltage protection, afaik.
Edit: This test for ACM 84V shows 70A peeks (=5880W) without alarm.

?

I am talking about the Msuper v3 and about the so called 80% acoustic warning beep.....not about cut-outs!

Sure...batterie gets depleted...wheels cut out a bit further then! Yes, wheels cutout under load a lot before as if they have no load...Nobody said anything else and  nobody talked about low batterie tiltback-until now...

And yes! Cut-outs depend on batterie level-aka Voltage- and load.....   ( and not temperature, btw, have you again overread that?)

Take a look-search what "back-EMF" means....perhaps then you understand, why a wheel cutsout at all at a certain speed...not only on the testbench of electrosport when there is nearly no load...also in real life...

And Yip....electro-sport has a nice test bench, one of their Videos is completly about one of my wheels :-)

 

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1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

?

I am talking about the Msuper v3 and about the so called 80% acoustic warning beep...

Which is for my MCM load and battery dependent. Doesn't yours behave the same?
BTW, my instruction manual says: "der Maximallastwarnton kann bei geringem Akku oder starker Belastung auch bereits vor den beiden Geschwindigkeitswarntönen ertönen"

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

.....not about cut-outs!

6 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

...but a wheel will not cutout because of to much heat!!!!

The bench tests do not address overheating. So, probably you have some specific source of information that heat sensors are neglected in overload situations? Is there any other overload cut out if the wheel cannot accelerate, i.e., on hills? As fas as I understand your point, there's never any overload cut out (except some weird "mini-cutouts") - until the hardware does melt.

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I am not sure everybody means the same when writing cut out. To my understanding a wheel may well limit its power depending on heat or battery status.

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2 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

I get that alarm all the time! It sounds like an old landline phone that was left off the hook. Inmotion is very thrifty licensing its default sounds. I usually say something like "your phones off the hook." to anybody near me. It also sounds off when I take a sidewalk jump and it flies more than a foot in the air. It tilts back pretty well too and shuts off if maximun spin is reached for very long when lifting it without disengaging the wheel with a safety button under the handle. I have not made evil knevil jumps with it and do not plan on it either being afraid that it will shutdown in mid air. :efee96588e:

It definately has the tiltback, but you really have to be going fast. As soon as you go over the 30kp/h it seems to just take over and lean back. This has happened while going downhill on crystal springs road in Griffith park to me. Its actually much mellower than the kingsong tiltback but just as effective.

Mellow tiltback sounds good, unlike the guy on the wheel that accelerated so fast that the tiltback bounced him off like an ejector seat.

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18 minutes ago, steve454 said:

Mellow tiltback sounds good, unlike the guy on the wheel that accelerated so fast that the tiltback bounced him off like an ejector seat.

Yes, the deceleration was almost as if I had done it myself. Very natural and yet with the sound very school boy chastising as well. Very nostalgic indeed. 

Lol titlt back ejected a rider? Now thats good proof that machines can think. ???

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18 hours ago, EU_Newbie said:
  1. What is your skill level or month(s)/year(s) riding EUCs?
    • I've only been riding for a few weeks (hence my handle EU_Newbie). But picked it up quickly and have been riding every day. This was the first time I've taken it 4mi+ and pushed the wheel this hard.
  2. How hard were you accelerating?
    • Very hard. About as hard as I have ridden it. 

I think this failure may be typical.  New rider gets comfortable with the wheel and tries to demand too much performance.  Let's REALLY accelerate this time!

I drive a sports car.  Some times you just want to rev the engine, pop the clutch, and get hammered back into the seat...  but you can't do that with an EUC.

With an EUC, you REQUEST power by gently accelerating/decelerating.  If you try to DEMAND power, the wheel says "screw you" by violently dumping you on your face.

 

See my post regarding a similar spill in January:

My wrist is mostly recovered now.  But still not 100%.

 

My learnings:

  • I'm glad I was wearing a helmet
  • I should have been wearing wrist guards (I wear them now)
  • Don't try to force the wheel, accelerate/decelerate more cautiously
  • I get warning beeps at 15mph, top speed is 20mph.  I pay attention to the warning beeps and slow down.

Glad you weren't hurt.  EUCs are great, but always be prepared to fall on your face.

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On 8.9.2017 at 9:42 PM, KingSong69 said:

I have said that i asked that for my wheel...and i personal can only confirm that for my V3....but AFAIK this is for all GW models, that they call it the "80% alarm"....but that it is just coded at about 80% speed of each wheel. But hey...who cares ;-)

On 8.9.2017 at 9:18 PM, KingSong69 said:

Believe it or not, the 80% alarm on the GW's (at least on my V3) isrelative hard coded alarm at about 36-38kmh!

Has nothing to do with current or torque...Gotway just calls it the "80% alarm".

I answered both Linnea and Jane when i received my V3 in October 2016 and they both said its not batterie/ amps or torque related....

My experience with it says the same, i only get it on 36/37 kmh...but never on crazy hills at 25-33kmh or so.....

So I have revisited that again and tried to bring all information so far into a plausible picture. Please report back if this seems correct to you:

The overload alarm is 3 beeps repeated: – – –   – – –   – – –
The overspeed alarm, before the wheel eventually cuts out is continuous short beeps: ---------------

While the cut out speed is load and battery dependent, the overspeed alarm indeed seems to be hard coded to a fixed speed. As mentioned by KingSong69 above, and also by Nomad here: "(as the last alarm was reported at 36-38 km/h). And the alarm speed was the same from fully charged down to 20-25% battery. " It also has been discussed here (but these different alarms have been confused).
Even at my MCM V3 it seems to be the same fixed 38km/h the overspeed alarm kicks in - regardless of battery level, or load, or anything else.

So we have 3 alarms that are hard coded to a fixed speed. 2 of which can be switched off. The 3rd speed alarm cannot.

And then we have the overload alarm (in my German manual: "Maximallastwarnton"), that has some more complex dependency on speed, load, and battery level. Finally, there ist the overheat alarm (manual: "Warnsignal bei CPU-Temperatur >70° C"). I am assuming that this it normal beep+short beep (– -  – -  – -), see the Monster in Marty's Hill climb video. Apparently the Gotways do a tilt back if you don't reduce the load after overheat alarm to prevent hardware failure - but will not cut out (but something might melt), except exceeding the 3rd alarm speed limit. As of yet, I could not find any report of a below that speed cut out (except some firmware hickups that are hopefully fixed now).

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Here is another "official" overview of the alarms from Jane Mo from Gotway. Unfortunately, the overload alarm is not even mentioned! And the overspeed alarm got confusing name ("80% power alarm").

Would you guys please check on your Gotways what alarms you get? A correct overview of those alarms would be very important.

On 11.6.2016 at 5:57 PM, Jane Mo said:

1;一级速度报警:每秒2声,first speed alarm,2 beep per second

2:二级速度报警:每秒3声,second speed alarm,3 beep per second

3:80%功率:秒5把(连续)   80% power alarm,5 beep per second(continuously)

4:低压7.2km/h时速内,二秒一声,less than 7.2km/h,low voltage,1 beep 2 seconds

5:低压14.4km/h时速内,二秒两声,less than 14.4km/h,low voltage,2 beep  2 seconds

6:低压14.4km/h时以上,二秒三声,more than 14.4km/h,low voltage,3 beep 2 seconds

7:电机霍尔问题,半秒两声 hall sensor defect,2 beep 1 second half

8:PCB高温报警:2秒两短声,PCB high temperature alarm,2 short beep 2 seconds

9:极低压开机,秒一声共五声 extreme low voltage power on,1 beep 1 second,totally 5 beep

10:倒下,1秒一声,共五声 fall down,1 beep 1 second,totally 5 beep

11:超压,两秒3短声 over voltage,3 short beep 2 second

 

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On 9.9.2017 at 0:16 AM, KingSong69 said:

Yes, exactly!

When you see, what he is doing there when idling....this is a real stress test!

This guy have balls,  wish i could drive backwards like him.

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On 9/8/2017 at 4:05 PM, KingSong69 said:

KS has a voice "caution overpower" warning...

I only get it to trigger if i grap a post and do constant idling..no normal idling, more like smashing the wheel back and forth very hardly trying it to cutout....then i got the "caution overpower"!

Have not been driving hard enough to hear it :-)

Btw.: i did this "smashing idling test" also to my V3....no beeps, but i got it that far, that the wheel "snaps" over...doing a mini-cutout, with directly recovering. Very disappointing....(but its the 67volt model!)

 

I asked GW Linnea\Jane back in October 2016....that was a time, when these both were much more responsive to active EUC drivers. I guess nowadays.....its a bit harder to get this question answered

are you able to get the "caution overpower" on the new KS18S?  i've been playing with the idling with the KS16, haven't heard anything yet, though i do get "clunk" noise going back and forth.

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23 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

are you able to get the "caution overpower" on the new KS18S?  i've been playing with the idling with the KS16, haven't heard anything yet, though i do get "clunk" noise going back and forth.

do you have voice on...instead  of beeps?

 

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It is not logical. If there are 3 fixed speed alarms, why call the first 2 speed alarms and the third a power alarm. If I was an EUC firmware programmer and my boss told me to put in an 80% power alarm, I would write a routine to constantly calculate the max power and sound the alarm at 80% of that max power.

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