Liam Neil Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Hi guys, Looking for some advice really. Had my first crash today... Which I knew I would and was inevitable really. So firstly, I've set my tiltback to 42kmh using the Gotway app and disabled the first alarm. I was riding in a straight line, in a tarmac carpark and my Msuper decided it was going to chuck me off. I didn't hit any bumps, neither did my alarms go off. I didn't feel the tilt back come into play either so I was wondering if anyone knows the answer as to why I came off? I was sure the tilt back would let me know when I was getting too fast? The only thing I think it could be, was too fast acceleration?? Is that a thing? Secondly, can anyone give me advice with repairs? My Trolley handle came out as it was bouncing across the car park and has bent and will not retract. Annoyed! Also, when I turn on my wheel now, it seems to slowly tilt itself backwards when stationary? Any ideas would be a great help. Also, the wheel doesn't sit central. For the record, I rode it home fine, just a bit shook with some minor injuries. Luckily my wrist guards saved me, other than that I'm injured where there was no protection. Lesson learned. Please help, hate that I've mashed up my wheel after 2 weeks! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Neil Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 Bounced off my hip... Gloves did the trick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 20 minutes ago, Liam Neil said: Hi guys, Looking for some advice really. Had my first crash today... Which I knew I would and was inevitable really. So firstly, I've set my tiltback to 42kmh using the Gotway app and disabled the first alarm. I was riding in a straight line, in a tarmac carpark and my Msuper decided it was going to chuck me off. I didn't hit any bumps, neither did my alarms go off. I didn't feel the tilt back come into play either so I was wondering if anyone knows the answer as to why I came off? I was sure the tilt back would let me know when I was getting too fast? The only thing I think it could be, was too fast acceleration?? Is that a thing? Secondly, can anyone give me advice with repairs? My Trolley handle came out as it was bouncing across the car park and has bent and will not retract. Annoyed! Also, when I turn on my wheel now, it seems to slowly tilt itself backwards when stationary? Any ideas would be a great help. Also, the wheel doesn't sit central. For the record, I rode it home fine, just a bit shook with some minor injuries. Luckily my wrist guards saved me, other than that I'm injured where there was no protection. Lesson learned. Please help, hate that I've mashed up my wheel after 2 weeks! Thank you! Ouch. Sorry to hear/see this. You'll most likely have to buy a replacement trolley handle (Speedyfeet should be able to get that for you). When it slowly tilts back, does it then stop balancing? What happens eventually? Can you still ride it? Where did you buy the wheel and do you know the production date (see the QC stamp on the paperwork that came with the wheel)? We I/we can maybe provide some further guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Neil Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 @Marty Backe Thanks for your speedy reply. Yeah so if I hold it so the pedals are sat parallel to the floor, then switch it on, it tilts back about an inch. I'm new to this, so not sure if it does that anyway or because I'e recently put it in sport mode? The wheel stays rigid after its tilted a little and it's still ridable, I rode home, just super cautiously. Just hoping that I havn't damaged the gyro at all. I bought the wheel from a company in China, who directly ship them, brand new to you, from the factory. Came in the official box with tags etc, as you would expect to find. It was produced my Kebye Co. Ltd if that helps. The QC Stamp says QC02 2017-08-01 Pass. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Liam Neil said: I didn't hit any bumps, neither did my alarms go off. I didn't feel the tilt back come into play either so I was wondering if anyone knows the answer as to why I came off? I was sure the tilt back would let me know when I was getting too fast? can you describe your fall a bit better? Did the machine/motor cutoff? Did not sound like that...as you even have no 2. or last/80% alarm? What Msuper you have? 67volt is max speed about 45-47kmh...84volt much higher at about 56-58kmh before cut-off. But on both before reaching that speed you are bombed with the last alarm....so perhaps it was just driver fault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 13 minutes ago, Liam Neil said: @Marty Backe Thanks for your speedy reply. Yeah so if I hold it so the pedals are sat parallel to the floor, then switch it on, it tilts back about an inch. I'm new to this, so not sure if it does that anyway or because I'e recently put it in sport mode? The wheel stays rigid after its tilted a little and it's still ridable, I rode home, just super cautiously. Just hoping that I havn't damaged the gyro at all. I bought the wheel from a company in China, who directly ship them, brand new to you, from the factory. Came in the official box with tags etc, as you would expect to find. It was produced my Kebye Co. Ltd if that helps. The QC Stamp says QC02 2017-08-01 Pass. Thank you PERHAPS the board in the wheel moved a bit from crashing, so that now its gyro has "parallel" a bit unset... You can "calibrate" with the app, to set it new again. But: When your wheel REALLY cutout on a speed under 35/40kmh...it might have another defect...weak batteries etc So be cautious! And check proper..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Neil Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 15 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: can you describe your fall a bit better? Did the machine/motor cutoff? Did not sound like that...as you even have no 2. or last/80% alarm? What Msuper you have? 67volt is max speed about 45-47kmh...84volt much higher at about 56-58kmh before cut-off. But on both before reaching that speed you are bombed with the last alarm....so perhaps it was just driver fault? I have the 820Wh Msuper. I don't think it cut off as the wheel was spinning when I picked it up, then it shut off. As for the fall, I just went progressively faster, over approximately 30 meters, in a straight line, on tarmac. I was going quick but as I mentioned before, there were no alarms nor did Tilt Back work. I thought that was my safety mechanism and that it wouldn't let me go faster than I should as it was set to 42kmh before tilt back came on. Not sure when the alarms go but I've only disabled the first one. If it was my fault, any idea what I did wrong, so not to replicate this? Thanks @KingSong69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, Liam Neil said: I have the 820Wh Msuper. I don't think it cut off as the wheel was spinning when I picked it up, then it shut off. As for the fall, I just went progressively faster, over approximately 30 meters, in a straight line, on tarmac. I was going quick but as I mentioned before, there were no alarms nor did Tilt Back work. I thought that was my safety mechanism and that it wouldn't let me go faster than I should as it was set to 42kmh before tilt back came on. Not sure when the alarms go but I've only disabled the first one. If it was my fault, any idea what I did wrong, so not to replicate this? Thanks @KingSong69 No need to thank, thats what the forums are for :-) So it looks as you were not to fast, as second alarm is at 30 on the 67volt Msuper! Hmmh, i can not give exact advise, as i dont really know how it came to this fall. When you say you are not that long driving...just dont have to much self confidence when going faster...get your progress slowly! Driving faster than 20-25kmh is not that easy for a beginner.....i often hear about wobbles when going fast, i myself had them, too! Before speeding up ...get practice for your new wheel, so that you can handle bumps, wobbles or other complications without even thinking about them. That would be my tip, as this all were things i also had done wrong when i started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Neil Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 @KingSong69 @Marty Backe Thank you for your input guys. The calibration worked and now my light shines forwards and not 10° upwards! Seems to be fine to ride. I've dressed my wound and I'm going back out shortly. Any suggestion on settings to use? Especially for the tilt back. Annoyed that I've scuffed the shell and bent the handle, but I knew I was going to come off, just didn't expect it to be 20mph! If you can figure the answer to why I fell thay would be cool, because I have no clue. Thanka again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 My personal setting is the Tiltback set to OFF....1 and 2 alarm off It is only disturbing to have a tiltback...it is just important to listen to the last alarm! (80% on about 36-38kmh on v3 67volt). When you hear it...just go a bit slower...or at least not faster anymore.! But please! Get used to wheel before thinking of going faster! If you are totally new to EUC...you will for sure get wobbles and kind of "weak" legs when trying to speed up! These wobbles will just leave over time when getting really safe with driving EUC... "muscle memory" must be developed over time :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 4 hours ago, Liam Neil said: @KingSong69 @Marty Backe Thank you for your input guys. The calibration worked and now my light shines forwards and not 10° upwards! Seems to be fine to ride. I've dressed my wound and I'm going back out shortly. Any suggestion on settings to use? Especially for the tilt back. Annoyed that I've scuffed the shell and bent the handle, but I knew I was going to come off, just didn't expect it to be 20mph! If you can figure the answer to why I fell thay would be cool, because I have no clue. Thanka again! Good that the calibration worked. Based on how the board is mounted internally I can't see how it would have shifted. The date stamp places it around the period that Gotway was shipping wheels with the bad firmware. Except for the firmware problem all of the modern (2016+) Gotway wheels are very reliable in terms of not cutting out while riding. Only if you were going 25+ mph would I be concerned. You didn't say how fast you were going (you may not know exactly), but your tiltback speed was set near the upper limit of that wheel. Frankly, I wouldn't feel comfortable going much faster than ~22mph on that version of the MSuper and still maintain plenty of margin. Unless you can say for sure that you were only going 20mph, I suspect the failure was from overspeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 The 1st August date is far after the oscillation issue. Should not be a problem here. If you like, post a picture of the sticker on the box (production date is under the bar code) and maybe of what it says on the sticker on the board. No need to worry about the sensors damaging from falls. I don't think that ever happened, ever, at all. Not sure why the calibration changed. That's the real question. Is the board firm and nothing's loose? Any rattling if you shake the wheel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Neil Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 11 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: The 1st August date is far after the oscillation issue. Should not be a problem here. If you like, post a picture of the sticker on the box (production date is under the bar code) and maybe of what it says on the sticker on the board. No need to worry about the sensors damaging from falls. I don't think that ever happened, ever, at all. Not sure why the calibration changed. That's the real question. Is the board firm and nothing's loose? Any rattling if you shake the wheel? No, the wheel still feels firm. Glad to hear that they're hard to damage. @Marty Backe I think you're probably right there. I don't ride that fast, was supposed to be a demonstration ?, although I've been hearing that if the battery power is lower then your power outlet lowers also meaning you can't ride as fast? Also, I've not heard a third alarm yet. Do you think the tiltback caused me to come off? Maybe it tried and I was too far forward so it gave in? Just shooting questions really. Seen a youtube vid of someone who did the same thing, except his alarms were going off. I thought I was being a good boy setting the tilt back lower than the maximum (42kmh). Do you think this could have been the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 7 hours ago, Liam Neil said: No, the wheel still feels firm. Glad to hear that they're hard to damage. @Marty Backe I think you're probably right there. I don't ride that fast, was supposed to be a demonstration ?, although I've been hearing that if the battery power is lower then your power outlet lowers also meaning you can't ride as fast? Also, I've not heard a third alarm yet. Do you think the tiltback caused me to come off? Maybe it tried and I was too far forward so it gave in? Just shooting questions really. Seen a youtube vid of someone who did the same thing, except his alarms were going off. I thought I was being a good boy setting the tilt back lower than the maximum (42kmh). Do you think this could have been the issue? It's a lot of speculation. Tilt-back could have been a factor. So hard to know. I ride with the 1st and 2nd alarms off and tilt-back off, for safety. The theory that some of us believe in is that if tilt-back kicks in at high speed and lower battery levels, the wheel might not have the necessary power to keep balancing as the tilt-back is occurring (tilt-back consumes additional power). And a cutout results. I know myself, how I ride, and the capacity of the wheels that I ride. Even on my 84volt wheels (which now is all of my wheels) I rarely exceed 22mph except on the Monster, but the Monster can travel safely much faster. I religiously listen for the 3rd alarm and always reduce the speed if I hear it, which I rarely do because I'm not a speed demon. I think if you're going to use tilt-back it should be for slower speeds. So only people who want to maintain their maximum speeds much lower (e.g., 20 mph) should enable tilt-back. We all tend to get ourselves into trouble when doing demonstrations Human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acturbo Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 On 9/2/2017 at 9:49 AM, Liam Neil said: Hi guys, Looking for some advice really. Had my first crash today... Which I knew I would and was inevitable really. So firstly, I've set my tiltback to 42kmh using the Gotway app and disabled the first alarm. I was riding in a straight line, in a tarmac carpark and my Msuper decided it was going to chuck me off. I didn't hit any bumps, neither did my alarms go off. I didn't feel the tilt back come into play either so I was wondering if anyone knows the answer as to why I came off? I was sure the tilt back would let me know when I was getting too fast? The only thing I think it could be, was too fast acceleration?? Is that a thing? Secondly, can anyone give me advice with repairs? My Trolley handle came out as it was bouncing across the car park and has bent and will not retract. Annoyed! Also, when I turn on my wheel now, it seems to slowly tilt itself backwards when stationary? Any ideas would be a great help. Also, the wheel doesn't sit central. For the record, I rode it home fine, just a bit shook with some minor injuries. Luckily my wrist guards saved me, other than that I'm injured where there was no protection. Lesson learned. Please help, hate that I've mashed up my wheel after 2 weeks! Thank you! If your a new rider, mashing the wheel up is inevitable. Your going to have numerous scrapes, dings, scrates, etc before its all over. From my experience these are normally a result of user error as you learn the wheel more so than the wheel causing the problem. Sounds to me like you were pushing the wheel hard, when that happens you are more prone to errors from the wheel itself. Not really sure anyone can tell you exactly what happened. Take it easy and learn the wheel. Learn how to navigate dips, bumps, cracks, etc as this will help greatly in the long run. My first wheel would look a heck of a lot better if I took it easy. Most of my damage came from me thinking: "Sure I can make it up that steep hill with a root in the middle of it", "Sure I can make it over this huge bump with no problem". Better judgement would have saved me from falling off and damage to the wheel itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kour Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 were you wobbling at all before you crashed? it doesn't take much to lose control, esp, if you're just beginning as it's 50 lbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Neil Posted September 5, 2017 Author Share Posted September 5, 2017 @kour @Acturbo Hey pal, No wobbles at all. Just tipped me off the front. Think I was pushing too hard too quickly. Disabled my tilt back now but still have my second alarm on. I'm quite observant with my surroundings and I feel as though I've had my calling with this wheel. Feels really natural and comfortable riding now. Spent the first week learning the capabilites of the wheel and pushing the cornering and manoevering over obstacles so I know what I can tackle when I'm out and about. I don't ride at high speeds in general really so a little annoyed I pushed it like that for a friend to see me come flying off. I prefer a fluent ride than a fast one. Was only on 65% battery and if it was the tilt back that tried to kick in, I never felt it. Anyone know when the third alarm comes in? I'm using wheelLog to manage my ride, and seen my second alarm come in around 26kmh - 16mph. Trying to find out if the third will kick in, but if it doesn't them I'm coming off again, which is no good. Haha! Thanks guys! P.S Thank you @Marty Backe! Duly noted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 35 minutes ago, Liam Neil said: Disabled my tilt back now but still have my second alarm on. That's a good choice! 35 minutes ago, Liam Neil said: I don't ride at high speeds in general really so a little annoyed I pushed it like that for a friend to see me come flying off. That's where a lot of falls happen...when you/we try to "Show off" the fantastic capabilities our beloved wheel has :-) No joke.... a real lot of "Show-"falls! 35 minutes ago, Liam Neil said: Was only on 65% battery and if it was the tilt back that tried to kick in, I never felt it. Anyone know when the third alarm comes in? I'm using wheelLog to manage my ride, and seen my second alarm come in around 26kmh - 16mph. 65% Batterie is far, far away from low Batterie tilt back!! Low Batterie tiltback can happen when you are under 20%. The third Alarm(which is only beeps!) usually Comes in at 36-38 kmh on the V3 820wh ( i have it myself!) As final conclusion to your fall: i would say you have had set the tiltback to low...and you were accelerating to fast into the tiltback...than a tiltback by the wheel can be quite harsh and irritate that much that it kicks you off! Now with tiltback set to OFF...you should be safe as Long as you listen to last Alarm and dont go faster when Hearing it :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaughthammer Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 5 hours ago, KingSong69 said: As final conclusion to your fall: i would say you have had set the tiltback to low...and you were accelerating to fast into the tiltback...than a tiltback by the wheel can be quite harsh and irritate that much that it kicks you off! Now with tiltback set to OFF...you should be safe as Long as you listen to last Alarm and dont go faster when Hearing it :-) I strongly disagree. The third "80% alarm" (80% of what? measured how?) is not very reliable, as it seems to have some averaging algorithm worked in it that causes a slight delay. Otherwise it would be going of constantly, as there are often rather large power spikes. So if you accelerate quickly at a constant rate, the power needed to maintain that acceleration rises over time.* So it is quite easily possible to push the wheel through the third alarm into an overlean by this method, without the third alarm ever going off. I had to learn this the hard way as well, also while showing off... *physics behind this: F=m*a (force is mass times acceleration) P=F*v (Power is Force time velocity), therefore P~a*v. TL;DR: The faster you go, the slower you should accelerate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Slaughthammer said: The faster you go, the slower you should accelerate. Good advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 10 hours ago, Slaughthammer said: I strongly disagree. The third "80% alarm" (80% of what? measured how?) is not very reliable, as it seems to have some averaging algorithm worked in it that causes a slight delay. Otherwise it would be going of constantly, as there are often rather large power spikes. So if you accelerate quickly at a constant rate, the power needed to maintain that acceleration rises over time.* So it is quite easily possible to push the wheel through the third alarm into an overlean by this method, without the third alarm ever going off. I had to learn this the hard way as well, also while showing off... *physics behind this: F=m*a (force is mass times acceleration) P=F*v (Power is Force time velocity), therefore P~a*v. TL;DR: The faster you go, the slower you should accelerate. That my advice was not meant to behave like a superfool was of course set as required... :-) Otherwise i would have to write all other conditions also: not do that on low batterie, on steep hills, having forewind, when carrying two other persons, when P=F*m/a, etc etc But in general on the Msuper v3 - and especially in the context of this thread- it is a good advise. The so called "80% alarm" is on the V3 btw nothing more than a more or less hard programmed alarm around 36-38kmh...its not batterie or amps related, thats at least what linnea from GW told me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaughthammer Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 @KingSong69: The point I wanted to make was just that I don't think this incident had anything to do with tiltback or alarm settings, it's just been a typical show off overlean, caused by lack of rider awareness regarding the stated physics laws. And that just changing alarm/tiltback settings won't prevent similar incidents in future. Alarms/tiltback just prevent overspeeding, not overleaning, that has to be avoided by rider awareness! Just to complete my physics "lecture": We all know, that the max available torque from any electric motor linearly declines over speed. The torque is directly proportional to the accelerating force F. Required torque is therefore directly proportional to lean angle. Please come to your own conclusions on how not to lean as far at higher speeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 5 hours ago, Slaughthammer said: @KingSong69: The point I wanted to make was just that I don't think this incident had anything to do with tiltback or alarm settings, it's just been a typical show off overlean, caused by lack of rider awareness regarding the stated physics laws. And that just changing alarm/tiltback settings won't prevent similar incidents in future. Alarms/tiltback just prevent overspeeding, not overleaning, that has to be avoided by rider awareness! Just to complete my physics "lecture": We all know, that the max available torque from any electric motor linearly declines over speed. The torque is directly proportional to the accelerating force F. Required torque is therefore directly proportional to lean angle. Please come to your own conclusions on how not to lean as far at higher speeds Eh, the original poster basically said he crashed showing off in front of his friend. This is a good thing; I wouldn't much like any rider who hasn't crashed in front of people, or at an intersection, showing off the awesome power of da wheelz. It's the boys' club of crashing show-offs, of which I'm a proud member too. What may be annoying is him asking the why of him crashing. All the answers go something like this: not enough power, overlean, electric motor too high speed, and so on. They don't actually answer the question of why he crashed. Why did he crash? Because he doesn't have a front wheel! Glad I could clear that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Neil Posted September 8, 2017 Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 Thank you everyone for your input. All advice is taken on board. Great attention to detail will now be priority. I also have a greater understanding about my wheel, and hopefully keep my pride intact in the future. Will get some media posted in the near future to show you all of my new mastery. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Liam Neil said: Thank you everyone for your input. All advice is taken on board. Great attention to detail will now be priority. I also have a greater understanding about my wheel, and hopefully keep my pride intact in the future. Will get some media posted in the near future to show you all of my new mastery. Thanks again! Green up arrow lower right of screen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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