New KingSong 18L?

[US69]

1 hour ago, mezzanine said:

There is still uncertainty about how much engine power will be in the production version because the KS rep says the 18L in the video is 1800w.  Earlier I posted a rumour from the french forum that the final version will have a 2000w engine, but I'm guessing it will be 1800w. 

Thomas Hoon, which posted all those videos, and was at the fare, and is KS region seller Singapore, said that the production model will get an 2000Watt motor. Normally his infos are direct from KS and very accurate

[mrelwood]

I consider a 10% difference in power to be ignorable if not just because of possibly different measurement methods, but since the firmware controls how the power is utilised and how it feels.

This issue is amplified (heh) in guitar amps’ power measurements, where standards regarding allowed distortion are hard to unify, as the poweramp distortion is the sound most are after anyway. One brand’s 30W is another’s 100W. And even speaker sensitivity and size can override the power differences tenfold. And then a kid chooses a 35W amp because he heard that the 30W is not loud enough. And then I cry.

[houseofjob]

The difference between 1800W & 2000W nominal on the spec sheet is negligible IMHO.

It's more important that the motor is in the same ballpark as the current competition (Gotway Tesla - 1900W; GT16v2 - 2000W)

GT16 specs wavered from 1900W to 2000W nominal, depending on who you consulted, which seems suspiciously like a bump up for marketing purposes.

 

Besides, there are other considerations we don't normally toss around in these discussions, like max power, and max power over speed (as evidenced in EcoDrift.ru's Dyno Test they conducted earlier this year below.... really hope they do another dyno test after the dust has settled on new EUC models after Q1 2018).

 

[US69]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

difference between 1800W & 2000W nominal on the spec sheet is negligible IMHO.

It's more important that the motor is in the same ballpark as the current competition (Gotway Tesla - 1900W; GT16v2 - 2000W)

GT16 specs wavered from 1900W to 2000W nominal, depending on who you consulted, which seems suspiciously like a bump up for marketing purposes.

i am totally with you....Tesla production model is btw said to have 2000W also.

BUT (or and) even then, a 1500Watt wheel against a 1500wh wheel from the competition may behave totally different.

I saw that especially on the 18S and V3...both 67volt...but a difference like night and day.

One much more torque and agile,  while the other one was drawing a LOT more amps, when the app numbers can be trusted a bit.

So it also comes to wiring in the wheel and firmware of the board, and i am very exited to see KS first 84Volt move :-)

If they take the behaviour of the “S”Series and bring that up on 84Volt...this wheel will more than nice.

Comments i saw from -very, very experienced- drivers which got the chance to try the 18L, where more than enthusiastic:-)

 

[WARPed1701D]

At what point does more watts in the motor simply become bragging rights rather then practically useful in real life? I understood that unless you ate too many pies all the time or wanted to wheel up a cliff face then 1500W was more than enough for safe rides (little chance of overlean for example) at reasonable speeds (<40kph). Sure if you have a fringe use case then more power might be of use to you but to the rest of us when does more power just become dead weight/unnecessary expense?

[mrelwood]

23 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

At what point does more watts in the motor simply become bragging rights rather then practically useful in real life?

Good question. I think long steep inclines are really the only situations where the nominal power matters anymore. Sudden accelerations at high speed and potholes that need a lot of power to climb up from fall within the peak power requirement. On accelerations on level surface it's hard to reach even 1KW (or am I a wuss?). But a great amount of headroom is always a safe bet.

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

i am totally with you....Tesla production model is btw said to have 2000W also.

Non-Chinese distributors seem to list 1900W nominal [eWheels][urban360], while AliExpress sellers seem to like to list 2000W nominal [intelligent walking store].

Gotway specs seem to list 1900W nominal. More and more convinced they're rounding up to 2000W for marketing appeal.

Agree with you though, but the only hiccup for me is being neutered to 40km/h for the first 1,000km, they really need to get rid of that, or bump it up to 45km/h.

 

@WARPed1701D @mrelwood not sure how much you guys weigh, but heavyweighters who simply can't purchase most EUCs out might have a bone to pick with you 

That, and yes, improving acceleration for superman / Michael Jackson -leans, rocketing uphill, and eliminating those pothole overpower beeps really are the last frontier. New EUC riders someday will never know the phenomenon of 'overlean cutout'.

[mezzanine]

4 hours ago, WARPed1701D said:

At what point does more watts in the motor simply become bragging rights rather then practically useful in real life? I understood that unless you ate too many pies all the time or wanted to wheel up a cliff face then 1500W was more than enough for safe rides (little chance of overlean for example) at reasonable speeds (<40kph). Sure if you have a fringe use case then more power might be of use to you but to the rest of us when does more power just become dead weight/unnecessary expense?

I think I may have underestimated the difference between my V8 riding experience and what some of these bigger, more powerful wheels must be like.  I look at the speeds some of these wheels are capable of and they seem like completely abstract numbers that don't mean anything because I wouldn't dream of going that fast on my V8 even if it was capable.  I can imagine that the combination of weight and power could provide a comfort at speed that needs to be experienced to be appreciated.  

[mrelwood]

7 hours ago, houseofjob said:

@WARPed1701D @mrelwood not sure how much you guys weigh, but heavyweighters who simply can't purchase most EUCs out might have a bone to pick with you 

I didn’t mean that an actual 10% difference wouldn’t matter. But as brought up earlier, a marketing department alone can pump up the power 10%, and different measuring methods perhaps as much. Then how the firmware is able to utilize the power in practical situations, and we might be up to 30% difference. So buying a 2000W wheel made by X over a 1700W wheel made by Y because of the additional power does not make sense. No matter how much one weighs. I’m 95kg.

And then there are the rider weight limits tossed up by the manufacturer. 150kg for ACM, 120kg for GT16. Did Rockwheel file down the axle until it broke at 121kg? Nope.

And finally, the declared load capacity of the tire. It’s often 70kg, max I’ve seen on a EUC is 90kg. Does this mean that the tire will fail if a 120kg person rides on it? Nope.

[Kael]

10 hours ago, mezzanine said:

I think I may have underestimated the difference between my V8 riding experience and what some of these bigger, more powerful wheels must be like.  I look at the speeds some of these wheels are capable of and they seem like completely abstract numbers that don't mean anything because I wouldn't dream of going that fast on my V8 even if it was capable.  I can imagine that the combination of weight and power could provide a comfort at speed that needs to be experienced to be appreciated.  

Lack of beeps at road bumps and pothole traversing would be instantly noticeable. And then there’s being able to maintain speed and power up inclines; especially useful on all the bridges I have in my city. The times I really want for a new wheel are when my V8 has less than 70% battery, has already been going at top speed for a few minutes and suddenly reaches a moderately steep hill. You either slow down or have it whine at you with constant beeping.

Yes, I obviously don’t want to kill myself, but as Jeremy C says: “More POWEREEEERRRRRR” 

[Scatcat]

1 hour ago, Kael said:

Lack of beeps at road bumps and pothole traversing would be instantly noticeable. And then there’s being able to maintain speed and power up inclines; especially useful on all the bridges I have in my city. The times I really want for a new wheel are when my V8 has less than 70% battery, has already been going at top speed for a few minutes and suddenly reaching a moderately steep hill. You either slow down or have it whine at you with constant beeping.

Yes, I obviously don’t want to kill myself, but as Jeremy C says: “More POWEREEEERRRRRR” 

I mainly get overpower beeps in one of two situations, where I get heavy transients. One is going slow uphill, or even worse starting off in an incline, I sometimes push a bit hard and get a single beep. The other is the few times when I've let my batteries flag to <50% and still push the envelope a bit too hard, then I get a beep or two.

As I've learned the limits of my EUC quite well, it's very seldom I get more than a single beep because of transients. I have so far NEVER got a beep because of a pot-hole.

The GT16 has 2kW nominal, and that has never ever been a problem, but the peak is "only" 3kW, and that you can reach in situations like the first one above. I've so far only been warned once because of overleaning, and that situation was rather extreme. I went from maybe 5 mph to >20 mph in maybe a second or two, passing a bicyclist. I got a triple beep and then tilt-back. In many ways a non-event, since the tilt-back is not violent in any way, but still...

Personally I think the difference between a nominal power of 1800-1900W or 2000W is slight. You may notice on a continuous climb, but not much more than that. For pot-holes, overleaning and such, peak power is a more interesting number. That, and how long such a "peak" may be maintained before something bad happens. You should be able to maintain peak power, or close to it, throughout heavy braking from top speed to zero. And I would like an even higher peak power, like 4kW or something like it, to have that extra headroom for critical situations.

 

[eddiemoy]

2000W isn't much when compared to what they had been rumored to have, 1800W.  But is is a big jump from the current 18S, which only has 1500W and it is already a great wheel.  From what I read, the 18A to 18S jump was 300W, from 1200 to 1500, that made a huge difference.  I think it is a big difference for the wheel to jump from the 1500W to the new 2000W.  

Will see how it is, I'm definitely getting one.  What I hope is that they update the 18S shortly after to use the same 2000W motor with the updated electronics.  Maybe call it the 18S+  LOL

[US69]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

What I hope is that they update the 18S shortly after to use the same 2000W motor with the updated electronics.  Maybe call it the 18S+  LOL

I dont think that can happen....instead of 16series cells you need 20 series....and i doubt that 40cells have the place in the sidepockets, as the 32cells have now. ok, the place under the board may be usable, but the batterie packs might get an abstract form, so i dont think this we will see that. Higher voltage normall need new shell design......

[eddiemoy]

4 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

I dont think that can happen....instead of 16series cells you need 20 series....and i doubt that 40cells have the place in the sidepockets, as the 32cells have now. ok, the place under the board may be usable, but the batterie packs might get an abstract form, so i dont think this we will see that. Higher voltage normall need new shell design......

2000W just needs 29amps at 68V and 24amps at 84V.  30amps isn't all that much... only needs 10gauge wire, 8gauge to be safe.  what do they run in the 18S?

[US69]

10 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

2000W just needs 29amps at 68V and 24amps at 84V.  30amps isn't all that much... only needs 10gauge wire, 8gauge to be safe.  what do they run in the 18S?

dont know exactly...

But 2000W are just nominal...i think maximal it will be at least 3000/3600 like on the 18S.

And its not the wire problem it is that 67volt is 16cells of 18650 and 84 volt is 20cells of 18650, where you need a total other designed space for the batterypacks.

[eddiemoy]

48 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

dont know exactly...

But 2000W are just nominal...i think maximal it will be at least 3000/3600 like on the 18S.

And its not the wire problem it is that 67volt is 16cells of 18650 and 84 volt is 20cells of 18650, where you need a total other designed space for the batterypacks.

Well in the KS18, the battery pack isn't exactly a normal shape.  Not sure I understand the limitation.  

[US69]

7 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Well in the KS18, the battery pack isn't exactly a normal shape.  Not sure I understand the limitation.  

At the monent you have 32 cells each side....and 64 at the top...(if a 1360/1680 version).i just want to say that i dont know if 40 cells are able to sit in the sides or spread out 20cells pack otherwise. I dont say it is not possible. But might be complicated...

[LanghamP]

Are more powerful motors less efficient? For example, would sticking a 3000 watt motor use more power cruising than a 2000 watt motor, given the exact driving method?

[Jason McNeil]

Joey & I spent an afternoon at the King Song factory, talking about the specific technical details & release plans. While they didn't commit to a specific date, it is quite certain that we will not see the 18L until the first or second month of 2018. The new board type still hasn't been finalized & I'd prefer not to be the first crash-test-dummy to stress test the new system. The available battery space inside the shell is limited, I was told quite categorically that there will definitely will NOT be a 1600Wh version, at least it's not in the pipeline/

Here's a picture of the two motors side-by-side. From the outside there are no indications that the motor on the left is anything special, although it does have thicker axle. We put them on a scale & the two were exactly the same weight, resolution 50g.  

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Joey & I spent an afternoon at the King Song factory, talking about the specific technical details & release plans. While they didn't commit to a specific date, it is quite certain that we will not see the 18L until the first or second month of 2018. The new board type still hasn't been finalized & I'd prefer not to be the first crash-test-dummy to stress test the new system. The available battery space inside the shell is limited, I was told quite categorically that there will definitely will NOT be a 1600Wh version, at least it's not in the pipeline/

Here's a picture of the two motors side-by-side. From the outside there are no indications that the motor on the left is anything special, although it does have thicker axle. We put them on a scale & the two were exactly the same weight, resolution 50g.  

Please re-post your picture, it's not showing up in your original post.

Too bad about the limited battery.

[mezzanine]

Odd to get contradictory information about battery capacity; the Chinese KS rep on facebook said it would come in a 1600wh version.  It makes more sense to me based on the pictures that they're staying with the smaller capacities they've already published.  I read that they got a lot of complaints about the pads on the 16S causing discomfort and that they were going to avoid them in the future.   

[houseofjob]

4 hours ago, mezzanine said:

Odd to get contradictory information about battery capacity; the Chinese KS rep on facebook said it would come in a 1600wh version.

Not really.

I remember getting the run around about the existence of bigger Gotway MSuperV3 battery sizes when the highest was under 1kWH, so seems like par for the course for a Chinese EUC Co to me.

[ir_fuel]

How big is the difference in real life between a 1300 and 1600 version anyway?

[Zenko]

6 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

How big is the difference in real life between a 1300 and 1600 version anyway?

1036* & 1600wh ? Quite big if you think about it.

[meepmeepmayer]

34 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

How big is the difference in real life between a 1300 and 1600 version anyway?

Even if you say "only 100% to 20% battery is actually non-emergency usable" (which is realistic), 1600Wh is 20% more than 1300Wh. If you take 70km range for a 1300Wh wheel, 20% is 14km extra - not negligible!