US69 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Looks like in a couple of years you guys in Europe won't be able to buy most popular EUCs made by KingSong and Gotway. I'm certainly hoping nothing like PLEV ever shows up in the United States. Yeah, seams so...creating a standard, quote: 12 minutes ago, OliverH said: Keep in mind that current manufacturer create amazing products for the level of maturity they have. In many cases this will be not enough for the next step. means none of the today existing wheels have „the standard“.... Thats just crazy...but typical! Shoot yourself in the foot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 18 minutes ago, OliverH said: To sell PLEVs in Europe and use them legal on street from 2019 up the manufacturer need to show PLEV conformity/ declaration of conformity. Following this route manufacturers can participate from the potential of the European market and enter mass production. Its allready hard enough for the manufacturers to make a living and profit and sell enough wheels...or why is it that IM , IpS, firewheel and other have left the market?....its ironic (at best) to say they can participate from the „potential“ of the european market, when it gets somewhat harder to produce „PLEV allowed“ wheels....with requirements that NOBODY has achieved till today ..... My guess would be...f“&§@ the european market....deliver to the rest of the world....but this discussion is worthless.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgez Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Looks like in a couple of years you guys in Europe won't be able to buy most popular EUCs made by KingSong and Gotway. I'm certainly hoping nothing like PLEV ever shows up in the United States. That's why I'm not waiting any longer and buying one NOW. Who knows what kind of regulation in a couple of years will be in effect..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 1 hour ago, KingSong69 said: Its allready hard enough for the manufacturers to make a living and profit and sell enough wheels...or why is it that IM , IpS, firewheel and other have left the market?....its ironic (at best) to say they can participate from the „potential“ of the european market, when it gets somewhat harder to produce „PLEV allowed“ wheels....with requirements that NOBODY has achieved till today ..... My guess would be...f“&§@ the european market....deliver to the rest of the world....but this discussion is worthless.... The sales are so low because of no harmonization of the markets and no legal base to use them. There's a company developing PLEVs (incl. EUCs) to be conform to PLEV. Another German company is developing an eKickboardscooter developed in Europe. If there's a business case company use the attraction of the market. What happens if a current strong market in Europe is enforced by police like in Germany because of missing regulation and incidents happens more and more? What happens to the low volume of our current brands? How much lower can they the production and survive? Where is there break even. Regulation is the solution to get in other sales dimensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Dealer marketing, legality, prices, people's perception of wheels (or lack thereof) influence EUC sales. 24 minutes ago, OliverH said: Regulation is the solution to get in other sales dimensions. No. Certainly not this regulation. "We'll make EUCs popular by effectively banning them" is not how it works (just mentioning the 25km/h limit makes it clear this is supposed to kill real car alternatives and limit them to fringe toys, not strengthen alternatives). Even safe toys won't make EUCs more popular. In the Netherlands heavy gas scooters can use bike paths up to 45km/h, this is how regulation that is actually intended to expand the market looks. Not this PLEV crap. Not what they did to e-bikes (25km/h limit =no useage of their potential or >25km/h not allowed on bike paths to make sure nobody thinks it would be a good idea to use one!!!!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 1 hour ago, OliverH said: The sales are so low because of no harmonization of the markets and no legal base to use them. There's a company developing PLEVs (incl. EUCs) to be conform to PLEV. Another German company is developing an eKickboardscooter developed in Europe. If there's a business case company use the attraction of the market. What happens if a current strong market in Europe is enforced by police like in Germany because of missing regulation and incidents happens more and more? What happens to the low volume of our current brands? How much lower can they the production and survive? Where is there break even. Regulation is the solution to get in other sales dimensions. I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with this. Regulation reduces commerce. It places restrictions on the free flow of creativity/commerce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: Dealer marketing, legality, prices, people's perception of wheels (or lack thereof) influence EUC sales. No. Certainly not this regulation. "We'll make EUCs popular by effectively banning them" is not how it works (just mentioning the 25km/h limit makes it clear this is supposed to kill real car alternatives and limit them to fringe toys, not strengthen alternatives). Even safe toys won't make EUCs more popular. In the Netherlands heavy gas scooters can use bike paths up to 45km/h, this is how regulation that is actually intended to expand the market looks. Not this PLEV crap. Not what they did to e-bikes (25km/h limit =no useage of their potential or >25km/h not allowed on bike paths to make sure nobody thinks it would be a good idea to use one!!!!). You're welcome to bring up a solution. But if you talk about speeds above 25 km/h it will be difficult to do it. I suppose it will be a heavy challenge. Our EUCs are special and not easy to handle in perspective of safety concerns. The faster the higher the performance level (ISO 13849). PLEV likes to have 25 km/h, Germany, Switzerland, Norway 20 km/h, Belgium 18 km/h. France requests additionally a pedestrian mode (6 km/h) if on pedestrian area (pavement,..). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 53 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with this. Regulation reduces commerce. It places restrictions on the free flow of creativity/commerce. Situation is different in Europe. European/ national product safety laws are very clear. Regulation gives access to strong markets where EUC riders are not allowed because no regulation available (e.g. Germany and even small Switzerland (the public transportation country)). Looking on the statistics from Eco Drift shows one part of the dilemma: Quality issues at it's best. As a PLEV device manufacturer you need very fast to act to prevent withdrawn of your decleration of conformity/ or get hit with a sales ban up to the moment you can with trust show off you've fixed the issue. The rising speed with the new models run in the problem that the "new transportation devices" are on focus of government decision. The party in Europe could be over in some time without regulation. We can take PLEV or we stand by and see EUCs are banned on market after market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedig Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 I look forward to the laws that regulate how many breaths I can take in a 24hr period and how deeply I can draw them. LCD law is a crime against humanity. it protects but it also limits growth and opportunity. evolution is necessary for survival. /me waits for the hate mail... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 14 minutes ago, stevedig said: I look forward to the laws that regulate how many breaths I can take in a 24hr period and how deeply I can draw them. LCD law is a crime against humanity. it protects but it also limits growth and opportunity. evolution is necessary for survival. /me waits for the hate mail... Why do you think regulation is that bad? We could wait for national regulations. Each different to each other. Or we can do it the EC style: harmonised. I like to take my EUC to France, Germany, Sweden , Spain or what ever country and ride my EUC - without problems and just ride it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedig Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 This is kind of off topic I guess but I'll lay it out. lcd = lowest common denominator. lcd law e.x. 6 km/h ... regardless of conditions what if the pedestrian traffic is traveling at 8 or even 10 km/h ... or there is no pedestrian traffic and no blind corners. your on the sidewalk alone crossing a bridge or rolling down a stretch of road with long open drives or ... 25 km/h ... again regardless of conditions or an individual skills and experience. I ride many of the greenways around the city here. I have bicycle traffic go flying past me on a regular basis, and I generally cruse the greenways in the 20 to 25 km/h range. as long as everyone respects each other, riders slow and yield to pedestrians, there are no problems. people get hurt. people die. it's the nature of life. everyone should have the freedom to choose the risks they introduce themselves to. they should also be responsible for the choices they make while doing so. if you go out and do something stupid and hurt yourself... that is your responsibility, not the governments. If you go out and do something stupid and hurt or damage someone else ... again, your responsibility to make right. the government may then become a third party issuing judgement and enforcing it if needed. legislating people into sheep ends evolution. it ends learning. it stifles invention and innovation. why change? just my philosophy. not worth much at all really. it would seem much of the world does not share it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 Couldn't find one without a horse, but fast should yield to slow is the general idea. And all that means is slow down the closure rate near slower moving objects, so the potential collision is less hurtful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 2 hours ago, OliverH said: Why do you think regulation is that bad? We could wait for national regulations. Each different to each other. Or we can do it the EC style: harmonised. I like to take my EUC to France, Germany, Sweden , Spain or what ever country and ride my EUC - without problems and just ride it. It's philosophical and peoples views will generally be influenced by the country that they live in. The United States is pretty big on liberty and small government. Trends are moving away from that (unfortunately, in my view), but it still resonates with most Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christoph Zens Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 13 hours ago, OliverH said: Why do you think regulation is that bad? Stupid regulation is bad. It doesn't make any sense to request that EUCs must not be able to go faster than 20 or 25 km/h. It makes sense to regulate maximum speed on bike lane, sidewalk, and road, but not maximum speed of the vehicle itself. By that logic, any car going faster than 130 km/h would have to be banned in Austria. Still, I can buy a car that does 220 km/h and it's perfectly legal to drive it through town at 30 or 50 km/h. Why would that not apply to EUCs? Europe is obsessed with over-regulating any aspect of life, to the point where people forgot how to make decisions on their own and take responsibility for what they decided to do. We are all like big babies, being taken care of by our governments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 16 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: No. Certainly not this regulation. "We'll make EUCs popular by effectively banning them" is not how it works (just mentioning the 25km/h limit makes it clear this is supposed to kill real car alternatives and limit them to fringe toys, not strengthen alternatives). Even safe toys won't make EUCs more popular. Thanks! On Point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 If we like to ride legal on public road we can use the route of PLEV. All EUC not in scope of PLEV are sport vehicle and not legal on public road. But all products sold in Europe must comply to machine directive (2006/42/EC). But as of today there will be possibilities to import them (pseudo EC labels covering parts of EMC) or at least for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 On 10.11.2017 at 2:14 PM, Christoph Zens said: Stupid regulation is bad. It doesn't make any sense to request that EUCs must not be able to go faster than 20 or 25 km/h. It makes sense to regulate maximum speed on bike lane, sidewalk, and road, but not maximum speed of the vehicle itself. By that logic, any car going faster than 130 km/h would have to be banned in Austria. Still, I can buy a car that does 220 km/h and it's perfectly legal to drive it through town at 30 or 50 km/h. Why would that not apply to EUCs? Europe is obsessed with over-regulating any aspect of life, to the point where people forgot how to make decisions on their own and take responsibility for what they decided to do. We are all like big babies, being taken care of by our governments. A car is not a self balancing vehicle and cars are type approved and based on ISO 26262 (Safety for autonotive). Pedestrian mode is a request from France gov. Need to be clarified how to implement it.E.g. In Germany/ Switzerland it will have no use as we’re not allowed to ride on pavement/ sidewalks (lobby of walkers restrict it). This will be implemented in hardware and be part of the user manual. As I was with my EUC in Paris on my way to Brussels (gare du Lyon (TGV) to gare Nord (Thalys)) I tell you it’s a good point to restrict it in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 To make it more clear. There’re laws in Europe which are harmonised and than we’ve laws which are implemented on a national base. If nothing is specified on European layer countries can implement national laws (different to other national laws) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 On 11/10/2017 at 2:14 PM, Christoph Zens said: Stupid regulation is bad. It doesn't make any sense to request that EUCs must not be able to go faster than 20 or 25 km/h. It makes a lot of sense to many of us, if I remember the poll numbers correctly. No reasonable legislator will allow a powered vehicle of unlimited speed to be operated on public roads without heavy regulation (like cars and motorbikes which need type approval, regular inspections, insurance and drivers licence). Make your pick which regulation you want. I find a speed limit of 25km/h without any further (strong) restrictions quite reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaughthammer Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 @Mono Well, the poll asked for limits applikable to non ensured EUCs and unlicensed drivers... And I think that under those circumstances those limits should apply. However, there should be the possibility to get an insurance and a drivers license and go faster on an EUC. However, I doubt that over 25 kph is possible without a type approval. And I don't see any Chinese manufacturer caring about European customers enough to go through that trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 I believe it is quite clear what is going to happen. Bureaucracy abhors a vacuum therefore there will be rules. It is certain that a vehicle that is as fast as a bicycle and has the weight of a bicycle cannot be more dangerous than a bicycle. The same could be said about the German Mofa - top speed 25 kph(aka Töffi) (those weigh about twice as much as a normal bicycle 48-50 kg). But in Germany you are required to have a full helmet and an insurance and a licence because a motorized bicycle is more dangerous than a bicycle. The reasons for this assumption are not clear. And it is not clear why EUC are more dangerous than a bicycle. Bicycles if anything are probably the reason for most traffic accidents with injuries in cities. Therefore it would be a good solution to remove bicycles from traffic altogether. This obviously will not happen. There are good reasons why there is no helmet needed on a bike. People would not tolerate this kind of legislation. On the other hand if you have no one using a bicycle (like it is now with the EUC) - how easy would it be to make it impossible to use bicycles. Oh look - suddenly no one makes it difficult to use the nice roads. And also less accidents... The next step would then be to not allow people without a car on the street - lets all have cities without walkways ... Still accidents? Well ... people should not leave theirs houses ... Keep them all inside! At least they would not die in traffic accidents? Right? ... We have a great vehicle that is reasonably save. Ambitious regulations will ruin this. And these regulations will also not make any sense at all. There is after all no one from the EUC - industry in the room that stops the lawyers/bureaucrats from unreasonable regulations... Also: What is there to be insured that needs not to be insured on a bicycle?! ... At the very least those insurances should only be needed after it is demonstrated that they are necessary. Again - what about bicycles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 On 11.11.2017 at 10:24 PM, Slaughthammer said: @Mono Well, the poll asked for limits applikable to non ensured EUCs and unlicensed drivers... And I think that under those circumstances those limits should apply. However, there should be the possibility to get an insurance and a drivers license and go faster on an EUC. However, I doubt that over 25 kph is possible without a type approval. And I don't see any Chinese manufacturer caring about European customers enough to go through that trouble. In Europe we're excluded from type approval anyway (if you read the scope of the european type approval regulation). That's why we're handled by product saftey law and Machinery Directive/ Safety of machinery. There is/ are manufacturer(s) care about us. But manufacturers big today and not having a PLEV certified device will not participate from scale in sales and will loose sales numbers. And depending if they can compensate with other non European markets they can keep on the production level of today. But the question is how low can be the sales to survive? PLEV is a (self) certification without type approval and inteded without licence/ insurance plate (covered by your private insurance against all damages like today for your bike) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaughthammer Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 10 hours ago, OliverH said: PLEV is a (self) certification without type approval and inteded without licence/ insurance plate (covered by your private insurance against all damages like today for your bike) I am well aware of this. But PLEV will include a speed limit of 20-25 kph, due to the lowered standards, like missing type approval. And Id doubt very strongly, that the regular private insurance suppliers would be happy, if they had to insure EUCs that go 50 kph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Just a note from current work: PLEV goes on for a stable version but the process to release the standard is difficult/ complex. I see the light In the end of the tunel.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travsformation Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 On 11/10/2017 at 12:49 AM, OliverH said: Why do you think regulation is that bad? We could wait for national regulations. Each different to each other. Or we can do it the EC style: harmonised. I like to take my EUC to France, Germany, Sweden , Spain or what ever country and ride my EUC - without problems and just ride it In Terms of Spain, I can assure you that harmony is near impossible. Every town/city can have its own set of regulations, and local regulations often contradict nationwide ones. Personal Mobility Vehicles (PMVs, which is the legal category EUCs are in here) are mostly unregulated on a national level. The Directorate General of Traffic can't quite figure out what to do with us, as EUCs don't fit the description of motorised vehicles, but aren't considered pedestrians either, so the only things that are applicable nation-wide (theoretically; more on that later) are the prohibition of riding on the sidewalk (although Murcia appears to disagree, and Barcelona and Madrid have a few nuances of their own on that subject too) and of wearing headphones/earbuds or using your phone while riding. No insurance is required, and theoretically, no helmet either (although Madrid seems to disagree and using a helmet is mandatory). I stress the theoretical component because in theory, local regulations can't contradict nation-wide ones, but as you'll see below, they do anyway in many cases Beyond that, the law says that we can ride on the road in any town that has passed legislation allowing us to do so (which is a royal pain in the ass because EVERY TOWN can have a different set of regulations...). But then of course, most towns don't have any PMV regulations in place, so it's a grey area, and for the most part, the police ignore you. In larger cities, regulations are being rolled out, and for the most part, EUC limitations are becoming pretty crippling (The laws seem to have been drafted considering them as recreational vehicles and not as a valid means of transportation). In Barcelona & Madrid we can only ride in bike lanes (roadside or sidewalk) or roads where the max. speed is 30 km/h; not on sidewalks, not on any other roads (ironic considering that both cities have left-leaning, environmentalist mayors who have "green transportation" on their agenda...). Then, beyond that, more specifically, in these two cities: In Madrid you can't go over 20 km/h (ever), and if you ride on the road (only on the roads mentioned before), a bell and lights are mandatory. Minimum age to ride an EUC is 15. In Barcelona the max. speed is 30 km/h for bike lanes that are on the road, and 10 km/h for bike lanes on the sidewalk; you can also ride in parks and on pedestrian-only streets at a max. speed of 10 km/h. No lights or bells required. Fines for infringing the regulations go from 100-500€ (in the case of speeding, unless your speed is measured with a radar, which is highly unlikely, it'll depend on the cop who stops you and the mood they're in...). Minimum age is 16. Helmets aren't mandatory unless the EUCs are used for commercial purposes (a lot of Segway rentals in Barcelona). It's even tougher in Valencia and Murcia: In Valencia we're only allowed on bike lanes and max. speed is 15 km/h (fines go from 90€ for riding on the sidewalk to 500€ for riding on the road). Also on sidewalks (as long as they're at least 3m wide) if accompanying a child who's also riding an EUC. Helmets are mandatory for minors. In Murcia you're only allowed to ride on the sidewalk and can't go over 5 km/h. Other cities: Zaragoza: Same laws applicable to bicycles: Only bike lanes and sidewalks (funny because nation-wide, bikes aren't aloud on the sidewalk...) Santander: Grey area, no regulations Pamplona: They're working on regulations based on potential danger, but they haven't been approved yet so...still grey. Vigo: Not on sidewalks. No further mention of where... A Coruña: Not on roads. Only on sidewalks where signs specifically allow bicycles and only at walking speed. Granada: Not near the Alhambra (I'm not kidding), and not on hills steeper than 15%. No further details have been provided. Málaga: Only on the sidewalk, max. speed 10 km/h. Basically, it's a mess (you have to know the specific rules for each city). Outside big cities though...as long as you don't ride on the sidewalk, ride recklessly or put anyone in danger, you should be OK (and I have my doubts on whether you'd get pulled over for riding on the sidewalk anywhere outside of big cities) and the police will either ignore you or find you amusing. Most cops don't know law on PMVs anyway, and in the absence of local regulations, it's easier for them to ignore the issue than do their homework, ask the town/city council or burden the department (or their boss) with fines whose validity no one is too sure about... So in a nutshell, it's good old Spanish chaos, with one perk: Good old Spanish lack of giving a *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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