ir_fuel Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Just now, meepmeepmayer said: I don't know, what certifications do road bike/racing bike tires need to have? Or mountain bike tires? It's more than tires. The entire device needs certification. Just as any other vehicle (even a bicycle). You should know this, you live in the heimat of the TüV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 @ir_fuel [..] You are right. On the other hand, do you consider it normal that a company can build a euc that can go 60 km/h, doesn't need to have any certification / proof of reliability, that they could make it using plastic engine parts/axles that are too weak to stand up to those speeds and that someone gets killed because of this? "Sorry, Chinese low quality product. Better luck next time!" [...] Yes we the beta testers of this glorious revolution. And you too will in the Future say proudly that you took part in it Regultations are a 2 edged sword. They do sound so very good but they also cut down on making things really usefull. One example: The German MOFA. Basicly a motorcycle that has a max speed of about 25 KM/H (15.5 mph) ... Now because of regulations you still have to this very day have to have always a full motorcycle helmet and a driving licence (for which you had do pay) and an insurance policy for your MOFA with you when ever you drive one of those things... talk about over regulation ... at the same time any good bicycle can do the same speed and faster without any of the regulations ... (those MOFA weigh about 50-60 Kg btw) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Roland said: One example: The German MOFA. Basicly a motorcycle that has a max speed of about 25 KM/H (15.5 mph) ... Now because of regulations you still have to this very day have to have always a full motorcycle helmet and a driving licence (for which you had do pay) and an insurance policy for your MOFA with you when ever you drive one of those things... talk about over regulation ... at the same time any good bicycle can do the same speed and faster without any of the regulations ... (those MOFA weigh about 50-60 Kg btw) Same here. Never understood this. The excuse is "if we enforce protection on bicycles people will not want to ride a bike", but as soon as it has an engine just go for it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 @ir_fuel The Regulators will do as much as they think they can get away with. Because something could happen! Will someone think about the children! ... etc... It all sounds great untill you think that there is more to live than just more and more protection and security. And that is not just from a hedonistic (Just enjoy it yeah!) perspective. To much regulation will also kill/strangle efficiency in an industrial/modern society Thats why the american way of doing things after they went sideways is better in my opinion... (Sue the company that acted recklessly - instead of making frivolous regulations that kill innovation and adaptation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 7 minutes ago, Roland said: Thats why the american way of doing things after they went sideways is better in my opinion... (Sue the company that acted recklessly - instead of making frivolous regulations that kill innovation and adaptation) You do realise that "Kinder Surprise" is illegal in the US because too dangerous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 @ir_fuel Well ... will somebody think of the children ... Yeah ... they did that as a way of keeping competition out of the US ... But looking at the way the US is dealing with food regulations.... Remember the chlorinated chicken? And of course ... You can import french cheese like BrIe and Camenbert ... but the strange regulations on raw milk etc. does not allow for a real cheese culture in the USA ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 37 minutes ago, ir_fuel said: It's more than tires. The entire device needs certification. Just as any other vehicle (even a bicycle). You should know this, you live in the heimat of the TüV I don't suppose EUCs are sold here illegally, so I assume the CE certification is what I meant. No idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking 30 minutes ago, ir_fuel said: Never understood this. The excuse is "if we enforce protection on bicycles people will not want to ride a bike", but as soon as it has an engine just go for it ... Pretty sure it's due to lobbying from the auto (and oil and insurance and construction and whatnot) industry back in the day, not wanting real competition to cars (and less gas usage, and lower insurance fees, and less road construction, and whatnot). You really think the widespread 25 km/h limit (originating from Mofas and hitting e-bikes, etc too) still exists and was ever anything but "We can't get away with banning things slower than bikes, but we can certainly sabotage everything else!"? You think the fact that e-bikes over 25 km/h (and of course limited to 40 for no reason) need a mandatory insurance (including ugly number plate) and aren't allowed to go on fucking bike paths (not even below 25) is a coincidence? Clear sabotage. It only makes no sense if you assume regulation was made in good faith (aka with legitimate goals and legitimate=scientific justification). Also, in general, if something can't be explained with good faith, it necessarily has to be explained without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 It's just too dangerous. A bicycle that goes 40 km/h is dangerous. Not only for the person on it, but the biggest issue is people misjudge the speed. They look to their left before crossing "oh that bike is still pretty far away", next thing you know the bike, ridden at 40 km/h, hits your car door. And of course you can say "you should watch out", but the fault here is with the person in the car not looking and the damage is for the person on the bike being killed, so just saying "deal with it" makes no sense IMO. I don't think there is a conspiracy. It's more of a historical fact. Back in the day you'd be pushing rather hard to do 25 km/h on a bike all the time, so there are a bunch of devices that are considered "equal" to a bike. When I was a kid you could drive your 25 km/h moped without helmet or any protection. As soon as you go 40 km/h, different rules are at play. It's also not safe to drive/ride something at 40 km/h when everyone around you is going (a lot) slower. Speed is usually not an issue, speed difference between people sharing the same part of road is. This is even an issue with cyclists these days, as you have groups of bike-"terroristen" riding in a pack of 10 with their race bikes at 40+ km/h in places where there are families cruising around at 12 km/h with children on small bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 So anything new must be crippled because people aren't used to it, or there is no infrastructure for it (and there won't be because now there's no incentive in the first place)? This leads nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 40 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: So anything new must be crippled because people aren't used to it, or there is no infrastructure for it (and there won't be because now there's no incentive in the first place)? This leads nowhere What is the choice, if people die? Especially if it is not because of "natural selection", so you die because of your own fault, but you die because someone else's fault. This is not the same as enforcing protection. That's only to save your own skin. If you don't want to wear it it's your problem. What do you propose? Get people killed until the stupid ones causing the killing get used to the new thing? For how long have motorcycles existed and still people can't correctly estimate distance/speed of those things (or simply don't see them at all ...)? In a perfect world we wouldn't need speed limits either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 @ir_fuel The case of the Electric Unicycle is a peculiar one. Any other type of transportation is inherently stable. The Unicycle is inherently unstable. Therefore there is a very definite speed limit that can be appreciated by even the most boneheaded user. In most cases the users will have a fall driving over confidently. In most cases they will then not drive to the limits of this device. You @ir_fuel sound like you feel responsible that you did not stop those users from driving to fast. ... Yes it is a shame if something happens to them. Yes it is a shame that someone else could be hurt by this accident. So are you responsible? Or are they responsible for their foolish actions? Where do you draw the line? And what will you say to someone that says draw the line earlier?! This is a slippery slope kind of argument that is the origin of overregulation. I say better to have to much freedom than to many rules and regulations. ... Things will sort themselfs out and you are not allways your brothers keeper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 People don't die, that's the point Every country but the ones in the political block influenced by the German auto lobby does not have that 25 km/h (or other arbitrary numbers) limit and everything is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 At the end of the day, what really makes for regulation is lobbying, lobbying and more lobbying. What country, just as an example, would really worry about raw milk being dangerous but happily allow its citizens to have guns and knives of type that can only be used as weapons (I.e. Where they cannot even be justified as for hunting, etc.) answer: a country with a powerful gun lobby. It happens in every country, famously when the car first appeared in the UK, Parliament legislated that it could only be driven if a man with a red warning flag was walking in front of it because it was so dangerous. This had absolutely nothing to do with any danger (after all a coach and 4 horses was a damn sight faster and less controllable) it had everything to do with the strong railways lobby in Parliament who saw the car as a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 On 18/08/2017 at 7:21 PM, Marty Backe said: I'm with you. Regulation scares the hell out of me. True. The European PLEV, if it becomes law, will require the states to permit their citizens to operate the specified EUCs in public space. That is a pretty scary type of regulation, if you think about it. But c'mon, Marty, you should be able to take it. Quote I suspect that we'll never have to worry about it in the United States. I suspect so too. I can't imagine that the US Congress will constrain the states to legalize EUCs, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 31 minutes ago, Mono said: True. The European PLEV, if it becomes law, will require the states to permit their citizens to operate the specified EUCs in public space. That is a pretty scary type of regulation, if you think about it. But c'mon, Marty, you should be able to take it. I suspect so too. I can't imagine that the US Congress will constrain the states to legalize EUCs, ever. Sorry, but I'd much rather live where there are no regulations on EUCs. Although there are too many regulations in the United States, it's still a wild west in many ways. I may be wrong, but the impression that I have of many places in Europe is that EUCs are either illegal or restricted. And these PLEV regulations will make many enthusiast wheels illegal. 99% of America has no laws or forthcoming laws about EUCs. There isn't a need for the US Congress to pass a long forbidding States to make EUC illegal because no states are threatening to do so. I pray to God that nothing like PLEV ever appears over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I pray to God that nothing like PLEV ever appears over here. I think you still missed the point: PLEV will give a permission to use EUCs in the case when they are not permitted currently. That's what you are praying for should never happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, Mono said: you still missed the point: PLEV will give a permission to use EUCs in the case when they are not permitted currently. That's what you are praying for should never happen? Nope.... The Thing is PLEV will give permission to use a SPECIFIC Euc... And as it looks now, the restrictions on PLEV are that high (redundancy etc) that in the moment no Euc exists that is inside the PLEV specification. So as i looks NOW...i also pray for PLEV not to happen... As soon as it gets implemented into law (as it is now) we are all screwed up with our nowadays wheels and instead of being tolerated and in a grey zone, law enforcement then with PLEV got something "written" against us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 13 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: As soon as it gets implemented into law (as it is now) we are all screwed up EUCs are already legal in many European countries and that won't change at all. Some countries might have to open up their legislation to include the EUCs specified in the PLEV (e.g. increase the speed limit). The process is much more likely to broaden the number of legal devices than to narrow it. Your idea that law enforcement will become stricter because EUCs become legal is somewhat funny. I rather doubt that, at least on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Mono said: I think you still missed the point: PLEV will give a permission to use EUCs in the case when they are not permitted currently. That's what you are praying for should never happen? Answer me this question. What will PLEV do in all the places that currently have no laws regarding EUCs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 46 minutes ago, Mono said: EUCs are already legal in many European countries and that won't change at all. Some countries might have to open up their legislation to include the EUCs specified in the PLEV (e.g. increase the speed limit). The process is much more likely to broaden the number of legal devices than to narrow it. Your idea that law enforcement will become stricter because EUCs become legal is somewhat funny. I rather doubt that, at least on average. It is "somewhat funny" how you think law enforcement works... Until there are no laws...there cant be no punishment! Thats just a fact! So when PLEV comes into law..it can be punished to drive with a nowadays EUC...as it is not according to PLEV rules. Beside of that , i also would like to know which of the "many" European countries EUC's are legal....even in France they are only tolerated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 43 minutes ago, Mono said: EUCs are already legal in many European countries and that won't change at all. Some countries might have to open up their legislation to include the EUCs specified in the PLEV (e.g. increase the speed limit). The process is much more likely to broaden the number of legal devices than to narrow it. Your idea that law enforcement will become stricter because EUCs become legal is somewhat funny. I rather doubt that, at least on average. We must live on different planets. Regulations by their very definition restrict freedoms of people. I know that you keep focusing on how it'll make EUCs legal where they currently are not, and that would be OK if that was the only language of the regulation. But it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasenutty Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 I don't know what plev is, but I like riding around and waving back to the cops who wave when they pass me. I think that might be plev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: We must live on different planets. We do. Quote Regulations by their very definition restrict freedoms of people. Then PLEV is not a regulation, but we don't care about the definition of words, do we? The PLEV regulates what states can or cannot do, specifically what they cannot outlaw. The freedom taken away here is the freedom of the states, not the freedom of the citizens. Quote I know that you keep focusing on how it'll make EUCs legal where they currently are not, and that would be OK if that was the only language of the regulation. But it's not. How do you happen to know it is not? To my understanding it is, but I am always happy to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 57 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: It is "somewhat funny" how you think law enforcement works... Until there are no laws...there cant be no punishment! Thats just a fact! No laws, no punishment, I agree. That means you are saying they are legal. Good for us, just facts. I was so sure that you knew about punishments that happened for example in Germany, because I was so sure you were closely following the German thread and even commenting on the reports. I must be mistaken then. I also read about penalties experienced in Italy... Quote Beside of that , i also would like to know which of the "many" European countries EUC's are legal....even in France they are only tolerated... If you really like to know, check out this thread: There seem to be at least six EU countries where EUCs have been legal since 2016 or so. And then there are those where it is not literally but effectively legal, like in France. And then there are those where you have some small chance to get a hefty fine or even the EUC seized, like Germany and Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 15 minutes ago, Mono said: We do. Then PLEV is not a regulation, but we don't care about the definition of words, do we? The PLEV regulates what states can or cannot do, specifically what they cannot outlaw. The freedom taken away here is the freedom of the states, not the freedom of the citizens. How do you know it is not? To my understanding it is, but I am always happy to learn. Did you even read what PLEV specificates? And No, it is not what states can do or can not do! Like -for example- the "Mobhv" it declares and specifies exactly what an EUC must be able to And how fast it can be to get it "under PLEV" and to be allowed And as all regulations it is much harder as no regulation.... 5 minutes ago, Mono said: . That means you are saying they are legal. Good for us, just facts. No, i am just saying EUC's are NOT illegal...they are not mentioned in any law...all our street laws etc go over 2,3,4 wheels vehicles... So there have been tries by some officers to stop people from using an EUC...getting there EUC confiscated, stop them from driving, giving warnings ....MEANING our EUC's fall under "vehicles" etc etc, but until !nowadays! nobody lost an argument in front of a tribunal/trial, just because: If there is no law, there can be no punishment! Just because of some police officers thinking, that is not allowed,is not enough!!! There can be only punishment...if there is an explicit law and something is forbidden......and that will come trough PLEV! Like @Marty Backe said...regulations will not make it easier.... 10 minutes ago, Mono said: There seem to be at least six EU countries where EUCs have been legal since 2016 or so. Good that you have counted also those where the speed has to be under 6 or 20 kmh or moving at walking pace.... Top :-) You are right, perhaps these wont have troubles by PLEV, as they are even more restrictive right now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.