Tightening the Monster Axle Nuts

[Marty Backe]

Just now, Paddylaz said:

Please tell me I can get away with never having to check the tighteness on my axle nuts on the v5f+. This looks terrifying and ripe for me screwing up ?

This seems to be something only Gotway owners get to worry about 

[Paddylaz]

4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

This seems to be something only Gotway owners get to worry about 

Goddamn those guys are taking liberties with their customers. First that software thing and now this......

Is Rockwheel still in 1st place though for the Official EUC life-insurance award? ???

Edited August 15, 2017 by Paddylaz

[US69]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

And when I asked Ian (Speedyfeet, where I bought my Monster) if he sold new wedges, he didn't even know what I was talking about. When I showed him pictures he seemed to understand but told me that he'll have to look into whether he can get replacements. Great!

Yip...dont get me wrong...service of Ian is somehow good...but in maintenance and repairing there are some better shops/sellers out there. When it gets to specific....

[Rehab1]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I stand corrected. Sometimes the more I think I understand EUCs, the less I actually do 

 

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I stand corrected. Sometimes the more I think I understand EUCs, the less I actually do 

No so...trust me you are on top of your game! It's the GW manufacturers that have us all puzzled by their inept , incoherent responses to logical questions ...such as

24 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Gotway's Response: "the materials of spacers are the same as motor culumn we currently used. Msuper 2 spacers would be much hard than current spacers, but it is not good for motor culumn as it is harder than current motor culumn, it may hit the current motor culumn when there is crash. We have did some small change on the metal spacers. So please supply some motor code of these wheels has such problem for me to check if these wheels are using new spacers or not." 

If the "motor culumn"---> ( AXLE???) is fabricated out of the same soft alloy as the locking keys I would not expect the Monster to survive very long!

36 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Translation: "we're completely incapable of understanding how our foolish decisions will have knock on effects to the longevity of our Wheels. Since we don't have a proper testing program, we let our Customers find our mistakes like a terrible version of Easter Hunt. Once problems are discovered, we strive to 1) deny that they exist, 2) when the evidence is eventually overwhelming, provide the absolute minimum level support to distributors (none to Customers) & expect them to cover all associated costs of our screw-ups, including the shipping costs for sending the defective parts. Under no circumstances will we ever apologize for the pain we've inflicted. 

 @Jason McNeil I would love to email GW your 'spot on' translation!  

[Rehab1]

18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

This seems to be something only Gotway owners get to worry about 

Suppose I should fabricate a socket for my ACM------> and Luffy-------> and Mten. This sucks!

[abinder3]

Sounds like Gotway believes "why pay someone to thoroughly test our wheels when we can get the public to pay us to test our wheels for us."

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Remembering way back when, there were a few Msuper issues where people experienced the same jitters from their axle nuts loosening up.  I wonder whether a working theory might be that the older, harder anti-rotational inserts were wearing out the axle metal so maybe they decided to switch to the softer alloy to help preserve the axle itself.  Replacing the inserts would be the lesser or two evils.  They do have a point about forces applied to the axle area during crashes.  You basically have two large lever arms that get banged up against a small anti-rotational area.  Perhaps larger axles that can resist forces better would benefit everyone in that they could use more durable inserts or even redesign the whole area differently to avoid needing frequent service work.

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Remembering way back when, there were a few Msuper issues where people experienced the same jitters from their axle nuts loosening up.  I wonder whether a working theory might be that the older, harder anti-rotational inserts were wearing out the axle metal so maybe they decided to switch to the softer alloy to help preserve the axle itself.  Replacing the inserts would be the lesser or two evils.  They do have a point about forces applied to the axle area during crashes.  You basically have two large lever arms that get banged up against a small anti-rotational area.  Perhaps larger axles that can resist forces better would benefit everyone in that they could use more durable inserts or even redesign the whole area differently to avoid needing frequent service work.

Since the motors and axles are considered a single non-serviceable unit, I would take your idea (many peoples idea) of a large axle and permanently secure (weld?) the pedal brackets to the axles. If you need a new motor, the motor comes with new brackets (we aren't talking big $$$ here).

This way the big axle can take the street abuse, has more room for bigger motor cables, and the pedals can never get loose.

I'll even write this in Chinese so Gotway understands it:

 

由于电动机和车轴被认为是一个不可维修的单元，我会把你的想法（许多人的想法）的一个大的轴，并永久固定（焊接？）踏板支架到轴。如果你需要一个新的电机，电机配有新的支架（这里我们不说大的$ $$$）。 这样一来，大车轮就可以采取街头滥用，有更大的电机电缆的空间，踏板永远不会松动。

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Although in theory that sounds like a good idea, I'm not too keen on permanently welding things together.  I'm not sure if it's even possible considering that the wire harness goes through the axle so heat from a weld might melt things?  As well, it's nice to be able to open up the motor and replace hall sensors if needed.  Maybe in the future there will be many sets of hall sensors for redundancy so even if a few burn out it's not a big deal.  These parts are cheap so why not incorporate a few extra just in case?  The electronics to automatically switch to backup sensors might be more complicated plus there would be more wiring needed though.  Also if in the rare event one just needs to replace a pedal support, it'd be a shame if it is all one single unit.

I think things are getting there.  If I repeat larger axles over and over again  I hope it will come true just like Dorothy.   There's no place like larger axles, there's no place like larger axles...  When you look at bicycles, they go through lots of crashes too, but the pedal arms tend to stay secure.  Maybe some sort of screwed on pedal with a locking grubnut might work somehow.  I'm no engineerologist, but I'm sure there's a better way to skin this cat!

Edited August 16, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Marty Backe]

24 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Although in theory that sounds like a good idea, I'm not too keen on permanently welding things together.  I'm not sure if it's even possible considering that the wire harness goes through the axle so heat from a weld might melt things?  As well, it's nice to be able to open up the motor and replace hall sensors if needed.  Maybe in the future there will be many sets of hall sensors for redundancy so even if a few burn out it's not a big deal.  These parts are cheap so why not incorporate a few extra just in case?  The electronics to automatically switch to backup sensors might be more complicated plus there would be more wiring needed though.  Also if in the rare event one just needs to replace a pedal support, it'd be a shame if it is all one single unit.

I think things are getting there.  If I repeat larger axles over and over again  I hope it will come true just like Dorothy.   There's no place like larger axles, there's no place like larger axles...  When you look at bicycles, they go through lots of crashes too, but the pedal arms tend to stay secure.  Maybe some sort of screwed on pedal with a locking grubnut might work somehow.  I'm no engineerologist, but I'm sure there's a better way to skin this cat!

Unless you're a wheel nutter (oops, sorry @Rehab1), nobody is opening their motors and doing internal repairs. Welding was just an idea, but some kind of permanent attachment has to be better than the current imprecise method that Gotway has chosen.

There's no place like larger axles, there's no place ...

[Rehab1]

If you examine @Jason McNeil's photo closely there is only minimal contact of the axle's washer with the 2 tapered axle locks below. Looking closely you can see on the outer edges of the washer there is full contact with the tapered locks but no contact in the center.   Retorquing the axle nut will eventually lead to major deformation of the washer.

The axle washers should be fabricated where there is complete contact with the entire surface of the tapered locks. I envision a square washer machined with bevels at each end to provide full contact with the tapered locks. 

 

[Rehab1]

32 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Unless you're a wheel nutter (oops, sorry @Rehab1),

No problemo Brokebacke. I deserved it!  

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

If you examine @Jason McNeil's photo closely there is only minimal contact of the axle's washer with the 2 tapered axle locks below. Looking closely you can see on the outer edges of the washer there is full contact with the tapered locks but no contact in the center.   Retorquing the axle nut will eventually lead to major deformation of the washer.

The axle washers should be fabricated where there is complete contact with the entire surface of the tapered locks. I envision a square washer machined with bevels at each end to provide full contact with the tapered locks. 

 

Good idea. Do you remember (I can't possibly remember where I saw this) that the Korean resellers had custom ACMs made which included custom wedges for the pedal brackets. Amazing!. Wouldn't you think Gotway would say, "Hmmm, that looks like a good idea, lets do that on all our wheels for 'free'"????

Looks like the pedal brackets and wedges are all cast parts? Maybe if there was a little machining involved per your idea the holding design would work much better.

[Gimlet]

Having had the nuts come loose on 3 of my wheels, including my very first cheap wheel, I tend to remove the nuts and refit them with some loctite thread locker to discourage them from working loose.

I've always tried to find the manufacturer's recommended torque and used a torque wrench and a monkey wrench to hold the frame as in this picture I've posted previously.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Gimlet

[em1barns]

9 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Joey has been working hard on trying to find a workable solution. Fundamentally the fault is one of the sub-grade metal, Gotway in their infinite wisdom, decided to use for the spacer. 

Our communication to GW: "1) Monster/MSuper metal spacers: see image below, the alloy of metal that's used for the spacers/brackets is not durable enough. This is likely to be an effect of the torque magnification effect of using such a large Wheel, being transmitted down to this component. You need to use a stronger grade, & thicker, piece of metal like stainless steel. "

 

Gotway's Response: "the materials of spacers are the same as motor culumn we currently used. Msuper 2 spacers would be much hard than current spacers, but it is not good for motor culumn as it is harder than current motor culumn, it may hit the current motor culumn when there is crash. We have did some small change on the metal spacers. So please supply some motor code of these wheels has such problem for me to check if these wheels are using new spacers or not." 

 

Translation: "we're completely incapable of understanding how our foolish decisions will have knock on effects to the longevity of our Wheels. Since we don't have a proper testing program, we let our Customers find our mistakes like a terrible version of Easter Hunt. Once problems are discovered, we strive to 1) deny that they exist, 2) when the evidence is eventually overwhelming, provide the absolute minimum level support to distributors (none to Customers) & expect them to cover all associated costs of our screw-ups, including the shipping costs for sending the defective parts. 

 

 

 

And yet, you can see that for some distributors, Gotway did make sensible changes... (Source: http://m.gevkorea.co.kr/goods/goods_view.php?goodsNo=1000000034, Korean distributor)

[Mono]

9 hours ago, Paddylaz said:

Please tell me I can get away with never having to check the tighteness on my axle nuts on the v5f+. This looks terrifying and ripe for me screwing up ?

You have a Gotway v5f+ ?  OK, OK, IPS seems to be plagued by loose axle nuts as well.

[Paddylaz]

6 minutes ago, Mono said:

You have a Gotway v5f+ ?  OK, OK, IPS seems to be plagued by loose axle nuts as well.

I have an Airwheel Monster. It's the hybrid we were all holding out for.

-30inch wheel

-4mph

-axle and main competents held together by the finest grade duct tape.

[xiiijojjo]

@Rehab1 or someone else should make and sell the custom sockets i really need one for my msuper. This seems as much of a must have as a charge doctor. It might become lucrative for whoever eventually offers them. 

[Jason McNeil]

Here's some other GW Monkey Business which people should be aware of: when shipping your Monster, please open the box & remove the central piece of foam. If the Monster is turned upside down in the box, this foam will press the power button & turn on the Wheel while during shipping!

• Monster Box Padding & Button: this is a pretty stupid design, the box foam on the Monster presses on the power button if the box is turned upside down. Do you realize the danger this poses of a Wheel that's powered on while in transit?! 
• GW Response: none

Paradoxically, I'm somewhat grateful to GW for these problems, because I came to the realization that I wouldn't be able to machine parts, or deal with extra workload the GW line of Wheels would impose, prompting me to reach out to Joey. He's got the precise complimentary skillset I've needed for eWheels.

•  

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Jason McNeil

[em1barns]

14 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Here's some other GW Monkey Business which people should be aware of: when shipping your Monster, please open the box & remove the central piece of foam. If the Monster is turned upside down in the box, this foam will press the power button & turn on the Wheel while during shipping!

• Monster Box Padding & Button: this is a pretty stupid design, the box foam on the Monster presses on the power button if the box is turned upside down. Do you realize the danger this posses of a Wheel that's powered on while in transit?! 
• GW Response: none

Paradoxically, I'm somewhat grateful to GW for these problems, because I came to the realization that I wouldn't be able to machine parts, or deal with extra workload the GW line of Wheels would impose, prompting me to reach out to Joey. He's got the precise complimentary skillset I've needed for eWheels.

•  

 

Yes, it feels like with these chineese wheel-makers, some level of engineering knowledge is required for the distributors to require corrections on the assembly lines / part sourcing.

It's still sad that when this effort is made by some distributors, it does not get integrated into mainstream design...

 

[Maximus]

15 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Translation: "we're completely incapable of understanding how our foolish decisions will have knock on effects to the longevity of our Wheels. Since we don't have a proper testing program, we let our Customers find our mistakes like a terrible version of Easter Hunt. Once problems are discovered, we strive to 1) deny that they exist, 2) when the evidence is eventually overwhelming, provide the absolute minimum level support to distributors (none to Customers) & expect them to cover all associated costs of our screw-ups, including the shipping costs for sending the defective parts. 

Ahahaha, holy crap that's the funniest thing I've read in a while!!! 

[Pard]

I would suggest that someone take the opportunity of producing Gotway/etc. clone kits with component upgrades that are to be final assembly tasks by the end user.  

This would provide superior performance, reliability, and cost savings since the customer is only paying for a kit with reliable components.  No assembly by factory hands.

This business model makes sense and is already in place across many different hobbies.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Pard

[Marty Backe]

8 hours ago, Gimlet said:

Having had the nuts come loose on 3 of my wheels, including my very first cheap wheel, I tend to remove the nuts and refit them with some loctite thread locker to discourage them from working loose.

I've always tried to find the manufacturer's recommended torque and used a torque wrench and a monkey wrench to hold the frame as in this picture I've posted previously.

I like your use of the monkey wrench. You've actually received torque settings from the manufacturers??? Which manufacturers?

[Gimlet]

The first one was my cheap EYU.CO which had a different torque setting for each side.

Then Jason told me the torque for my IPS wheels.

Then Jane Mo found the correct torque for my Mten2 when they loosened off enough on my first long ride for three of the four tapered clamps to fall out (strangely enough it was still rideable like that). One got lost so I had to make a new one on my bench grinder.

[Rehab1]

@Jason McNeil Great video depicting Joey's skills! Your customers will have comfort knowing that there will be ongoing R&D at your company! 

Given the amount of space between the axle's current flat washer and the tapered locks I decided to hand fabricate (nothing to spec) a beveled washer that might provide for better surface contact and less deformation. Just an idea.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Rehab1