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Marty Backe

Tightening the Monster Axle Nuts

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Couple of questions:

After tightening the axle nuts, is it possible the remaining slack in the system is the electronics not being as tight as you may expect?  

What setting do you have the pedals set at in the app, soft vs hard?

What remains loose enough after all that torque applied to the axle nut, that would allow a pivot around the axle of relatively low inertia?

Also, any concern that you may be weakening the axle by overtorqueing the nut?

What inch/pound setting was on that torque wrench?

For reference, a motorcycle rear wheel axle nut is often torqued to 70 inch pounds.  You look like you put at least 100 on that axle nut.  A nut on an axle can always be turned beyond recommended torque values.  

Any chance too much side load is being placed on the bearings with all that torque?

Perhaps a friction washer/plate is needed in the system?

 

Thanks for taking the time to record and share your work .

 

Edited by Pard

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3 hours ago, Pard said:

Couple of questions:

After tightening the axle nuts, is it possible the remaining slack in the system is the electronics not being as tight as you may expect?  

What setting do you have the pedals set at in the app, soft vs hard?

What remains loose enough after all that torque applied to the axle nut, that would allow a pivot around the axle of relatively low inertia?

Also, any concern that you may be weakening the axle by overtorqueing the nut?

What inch/pound setting was on that torque wrench?

For reference, a motorcycle rear wheel axle nut is often torqued to 70 inch pounds.  You look like you put at least 100 on that axle nut.  A nut on an axle can always be turned beyond recommended torque values.  

Any chance too much side load is being placed on the bearings with all that torque?

Perhaps a friction washer/plate is needed in the system?

 

Thanks for taking the time to record and share your work .

 

The remaining slack is not due to electronics. There are other local Monster riders and I can compare their newer wheels to mine. There is no slope in the new wheels.

I ride the Monster in the hard setting.

I didn't use a torque wrench, so I have no idea. Based on the experience of others I wasn't too concerned about applying too much torque.

The final fix will be to eventually tear the wheel completely apart and replace the worn axle wedges.

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5 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

Your most welcome Marty and thank you for the kind accolades! It was a true pleasure! 

Great video production as always. I love your idea of using the Shopmate Bench as a repair station. It really secured the Monster's wheel throughout the repair process. Marking the nut and shaft prior to tightening was an excellent idea. It clearly demonstrated just how much you were able to advance the nut. Your Big Guns really got their workout!:) 

Thanks again.

I really should have worn my muscle shirt while filming this - my bad :D

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Nice job on the video and securing of the pedal supports!  :thumbup:  I wonder whether applying downward pressing force to the breaker might be easier.  When I tighten the lugnuts on my car to rotate tires, I usually apply downward rotational force rather than upward as I have the advantage of putting my weight into it.  I try to give it a smooth motion until it clicks.  Just FYI for those who haven't used one, you can identify a torque wrench as it usually has a handle that you can turn to adjust the torque setting or a displacement sort of gauge.

britool-expert-e100108-40-200-nm-torque-

03726a__1.jpg

@Rehab1 have you considered ordering a few more of these sockets and charging people $20-25 or some amount as I bet these sockets will be a popular item!

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

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2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Thanks again.

I really should have worn my muscle shirt while filming this - my bad :D

My wife was disappointed!:facepalm:

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3 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Nice job on the video and securing of the pedal supports!  :thumbup:  I wonder whether applying downward pressing force to the breaker might be easier.  When I tighten the lugnuts on my car to rotate tires, I usually apply downward rotational force rather than upward as I have the advantage of putting my weight into it.  I try to give it a smooth motion until it clicks.  Just FYI for those who haven't used one, you can identify a torque wrench as it usually has a handle that you can turn to adjust the torque setting or a displacement sort of gauge.

britool-expert-e100108-40-200-nm-torque-

@Rehab1 have you considered ordering a few more of these sockets and charging people $20-25 or some amount as I bet these sockets will be a popular item!

I like this torque wrench you recommended the best! The floating arrow type torque wrenches are known to not be as accurate. 

Do we know what are the exact torque specifications for a 24mm nut going over the hollowed out shaft are? I found this chart on bolts that depicts a 24mm bolt can be torqued anywhere between 203 -926 Foot Pounds depending on the relative strength of the bolt. I know an EUC axle with a hollowed out center is not a bolt so how do you determine the maximum allowed tightness? This would be excellent information for all EUCs!

 

 

Edited by Rehab1

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2 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

@Rehab1 have you considered ordering a few more of these sockets and charging people $20-25 or some amount as I bet these sockets will be a popular item!

I never finish my thought! Sorry Hunka!

Great idea but I'm hoping @Jason McNeil will eventually supply unique repair tools in the future. The sockets could easily be produced in China and included in his wheel shipments to save on freight.  

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Factoring in the aluminum alloy anti-rotational inserts, I wonder whether they might influence how much torque should be applied to the axle nut as I imagine they would deform under pressure.  I know people have sheared off their lugnut bolts on their cars by over-tightening or using an impact wrench to secure the lugs.  Too bad there isn't a better way of doing it.  Maybe KingSong and their top bolt solution is better or maybe with the French and their steel alloy inserts and slotted retainer there will be less problems?  Maybe moving to a larger axle in general will help distribute the torque forces over a larger flat surface and allow for thicker axles so people can tighten these all they want? 

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

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53 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Factoring in the aluminum allow anti-rotational inserts, I wonder whether they might influence how much torque should be applied to the axle nut as I imagine they would deform under pressure.  I know people have sheared off their lugnut bolts on their cars by over-tightening or using an impact wrench to secure the lugs.  Too bad there isn't a better way of doing it.  Maybe KingSong and their top bolt solution is better or maybe with the French and their steel alloy inserts and slotted retainer there will be less problems?  Maybe moving to a larger axle in general will help distribute the torque forces over a larger flat surface and allow for thicker axles so people can tighten these all they want? 

You gave a valid point. Maybe @Jason McNeil can ask GW about the torque specs. Possible there is no set torque rating and the GW techs just grunt like @Marty Backe and call it a day. Pretty sure the GW's techs don't have the massive arm girth of Mighty Marty.  :)

Edited by Rehab1

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1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Let me correct that other posting... :whistling:

Ah.....I've been hijacked, spammed and hacked all at the same time!:facepalm:

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I get some plastic creeking noices from around the pedals of my msuper when accelerating and breaking might this be due to lose Axels? The body doesn't have any slack like in the video but the pedals do creek. Taking it apart I noticed that the rods going through the pedals were slightly bent which forced  me to use a hammer to push them out, is that just from going over curbs? I have 3000km on it so I guess it's about time to get new foot pedals, rods and washers (buying em at speedyfeet.co.uk) but I wonder if this would fix the creeking noice or whether it's a loose axel causing this. 

Edit: hmmm... due to the rods being bent the part they go through (connected to motor) would probably also be slightly bent on the inside of the cylindrical hole the rods goes through which would help bend any new rods I install. Can you buy the metal brackets connected to the motor anywhere? 

Edited by xiiijojjo

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2 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

I get some plastic creeking noices from around the pedals of my msuper when accelerating and breaking might this be due to lose Axels? The body doesn't have any slack like in the video but the pedals do creek. Taking it apart I noticed that the rods going through the pedals were slightly bent which forced  me to use a hammer to push them out, is that just from going over curbs? I have 3000km on it so I guess it's about time to get new foot pedals, rods and washers (buying em at speedyfeet.co.uk) but I wonder if this would fix the creeking noice or whether it's a loose axel causing this. 

Edit: hmmm... due to the rods being bent the part they go through (connected to motor) would probably also be slightly bent on the inside of the cylindrical hole the rods goes through which would help bend any new rods I install. Can you buy the metal brackets connected to the motor anywhere? 

No, creaking noises have nothing to do with the axle nuts. And bent pedal rods absolutely do occur from curb jumping, something I never do (the rods on all of my  wheels are nice and straight).

I've never seen the motor brackets sold by any dealer, but you could ask them.

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4 hours ago, Pard said:

Some more ideas about axle nut security.

Nice videos. But my (and others) problems are not because the nuts actually loosen, but the wedges which press on the axle get deformed over time and loosen. The axle nuts then must be tightened more to press the wedges tighter against the axle. At some point the wedges have to be repaired because tightening the nuts only helps a little.

So that's what I was attempting to do in this video - compress the wedges tighter against the axle.

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52 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

No, creaking noises have nothing to do with the axle nuts. And bent pedal rods absolutely do occur from curb jumping, something I never do (the rods on all of my  wheels are nice and straight).

I've never seen the motor brackets sold by any dealer, but you could ask them.

I have to say i have another opinion...

Creaking noises of plastic when accelerating and braking hard, was exactly how my "loose" axle nuts and defect wedges symptom started! When it is not "that worse"...your shell/case holds the pedalarms in place, and because of that you get the noises on weight changing.

Thsi happens especially, when only ONE side is loose....then the other side and the case/shell can hold all in place, just these creaking noises occur.

 

When 1 radwerkstatt opened my wheel, he said that my wedges look as bad as they are from another wheel :-)

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19 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

I have to say i have another opinion...

Creaking noises of plastic when accelerating and braking hard, was exactly how my "loose" axle nuts and defect wedges symptom started! When it is not "that worse"...your shell/case holds the pedalarms in place, and because of that you get the noises on weight changing.

Thsi happens especially, when only ONE side is loose....then the other side and the case/shell can hold all in place, just these creaking noises occur.

 

When 1 radwerkstatt opened my wheel, he said that my wedges look as bad as they are from another wheel :-)

I stand corrected. Sometimes the more I think I understand EUCs, the less I actually do :blink:

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@Jason McNeil

Wow :-)

you seam to be, how can i say it accurate.... a little bit pi***d of, or?

I like there answer, as it is just saying: hey, we can not change this metal pieces...it we make them harder, then the soft axle will be bend if something hits the pedal arm....

Hotway on it's best :-)

 

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5 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

@Jason McNeil

Wow :-)

you seam to be, how can i say it accurate.... a little bit pi***d of, or?

I like there answer, as it is just saying: hey, we can not change this metal pieces...it we make them harder, then the soft axle will be bend if something hits the pedal arm....

Hotway on it's best :-)

 

Yes, that's how I understand it. In the past some people have suggested replacing the wedges with a harder metal but I suspected that it's important that they be made from a softer metal that better conforms to the axle under pressure.

So it looks like the solution from Gotway is to replace the wedges every X number of miles/km's. A very customer friendly solution :(

And when I asked Ian (Speedyfeet, where I bought my Monster) if he sold new wedges, he didn't even know what I was talking about. When I showed him pictures he seemed to understand but told me that he'll have to look into whether he can get replacements. Great!

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Please tell me I can get away with never having to check the tighteness on my axle nuts on the v5f+. This looks terrifying and ripe for me screwing up ?

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