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2017 - quiet EUC year?


em1barns
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After a year 2016 full of new EUC, I find 2017 to be more quiet from a new model perspective from the major vendors.

No new model so far from Gotway / Inmotion. Ninebot seems to be out of the game. For Kingsong, ks16s and ks18s are out, but the shell and outer appearance did not change. Rockwheel GT16 is probably the main other serious wheel released this year.

So is this a sign the market is maturing with longer release cycles, or a sign that these companies are struggling, or even running out of cash?

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7 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

As i got it Inmotion is more or less out of the game, as they were not happy with the V5/V8 sales, and even gave their designs to Solowheel or however this deal works out.

Where did you get this from? How do you know the sales numbers? My interpretation from the InMotion-Solowheel deal was that InMotion bought Solowheel with its patents to become a/the dominating player in the market.

Edited by Mono
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1 minute ago, Mono said:

Where did you get this from? My interpretation was that InMotion bought Solowheel with its patents to become a/the dominating player in the market.

Like i said..."or however this deal works out"....

But as i heard, i think that was from Jason from ewheels, that meanwhile no new EUC's are planned and that they were not happy with sales and now concentrate on e-scooters again? we will see...

 

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54 minutes ago, em1barns said:

After a year 2016 full of new EUC, I find 2017 to be more quiet from a new model perspective from the major vendors.

No new model so far from Gotway / Inmotion. Ninebot seems to be out of the game. For Kingsong, ks16s and ks18s are out, but the shell and outer appearance did not change. Rockwheel GT16 is probably the main other serious wheel released this year.

So is this a sign the market is maturing with longer release cycles, or a sign that these companies are struggling, or even running out of cash?

Or maybe just regression to the mean

 

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Another possibility for the evolution of the EUC mode of transportation is that vendors will find a good hardware "platform" and then just tweak the firmware and cosmetics. That is what Tesla seems to be doing with their car models. As long as the battery, control board, and motor are solid you can do other changes without too much disruption to the supply chain or sales process. It might even be possible in some cases to retrofit features in older wheels by upgrading firmware. In some ways that looks like what KS is already doing, they have one app that supports all their wheels even though not all the apps have all the features in the app.

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The question is: what can they still improve in their product that's technically possible and worthwhile? I don't know if we want more speed. Some of the wheels go 50 km/h. Do you really want one that goes 100km/h? The biggest improvements would be max power output (for hills and obstacles) and battery life, but these all have limits because of the laws of physics and the state of battery technology.

 

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29 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

The question is: what can they still improve in their product that's technically possible and worthwhile?

Comparatively simple to answer: reducing weight without compromising range, power, or reliability. It's always good to remember though that there are rather distinct usages for a wheel, similar as for cycling, namely small commutes vs long leisure/sport trips. They demand rather different profiles for a wheel. 

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10 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

I would say the Monster was also early 2017? January if i remember correctly...

 

The KS18S will get a new Shell this year...first prototype's of it in 16b/14d style have been seen.

To put out a new wheel for a certain "Inch" class more than all 2 years is i would guess not profitable. New Shell designs are quite expensive and beside the Shells 14d/s, 16s and 18s where completly new designed boards and Motors.

As Long as EUC's are more or less a niche, you will not see that much more new wheels, for that the sold numbers are just to less. As i got it Inmotion is more or less out of the game, as they were not happy with the V5/V8 sales, and even gave their designs to Solowheel or however this deal works out.

 

And in my opinion, there are more than enough good wheels on the market now.....i don't see the Need for "real" new GW wheels...perhaps the 14inch "pro" will Pop up with 84 Volt.

But thats it....In my view the 100Volt wheels are not needed, the Producers should Focus more on safety/reliability than on more Speed....Long time experience has shown that the actual designs are not capable of that much power.

My 2 Cents :-)

 

An MSuper type version (short shell) of the KS18S interests me very much.

I'm really looking forward to Gotway's next performance wheel. Although their current lineup is great, they need to churn out newer and newer models. That's how business works. I'm not going to buy another MSuper V3, but if they come out with a V4 then my checkbox comes out of my pocket real quick :D I'm sure that Gotway knows that new product releases keeps interest in their product line high and sells more wheels.

Besides a 100v MSuper V4, I'd love to see a performance 14 inch wheel from Gotway. 1000 watt motor, 800+wh battery, wide tire, trolley handle, etc. Please don't refer me to the lame MCM4 ;)

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You know people would buy an EUC that can go 100 kph.  I asked that same question many moons ago, and a few people chimed in that they would get it.  They likely wouldn't even try to go that fast as the vibration and fact that your feet are not attached to the wheel would make it extremely hazardous, but in some conditions it would be nice to never be able to reach the zero torque limit of a wheel.  Think of it like being able to buy a sportbike that can go 250kph.  Would you ride at that speed ever?  Most likely not, but it's nice that it is capable.

It should be interesting what EUC Extreme's top secret customized high speed wheel will be like as it could showcase what can be done.  Next would be improved climbing ability without overheating.  That's something which would be high on many people's list.  With a few simple modifications (larger axle or dual channel axle design like what KingSong is doing) it would allow thicker wiring to avoid heat issues rather than force people to do their own modding.  Beefier MOSFETs or different electronics components to avoid control board failure is another item they could work on as well as better waterproofing.

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love
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1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

The question is: what can they still improve in their product that's technically possible and worthwhile? I don't know if we want more speed.

Right, the speed is enough. Now we need consolidation of the current performance level. For example, Gotway should achieve the final solution to its melting problems. I still think the whole industry needs to switch to a new motor with thicker axle (for more wire space) for the next generation of EUCs.

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25 minutes ago, Mono said:

It's always good to remember though that there are rather distinct usages for a wheel, similar as for cycling, namely small commutes vs long leisure/sport trips. They demand rather different profiles for a wheel. 

IPS i5 has possibly launched a new category. Maybe other companies will introduce similar models.

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24 minutes ago, MaxLinux said:

Right, the speed is enough. Now we need consolidation of the current performance level. For example, Gotway should achieve the final solution to its melting problems. I still think the whole industry needs to switch to a new motor with thicker axle (for more wire space) for the next generation of EUCs.

I think going to larger axles would solve a number of issues:

1.  Axle breakage.  Thicker metal resists fatigue and cracking so we will never hear another report of someone's axle failing.  I have heard of one Ninebot rider busting their axle and many earlier KS14 users doing the same thing.

2.  Wire failure.  More room for the wiring channel can let them bump up wiring thickness so wires will never melt under heavy load conditions.

3.  Pedal support attachment wear and failure.  We are hearing more reports of the bracing inserts around the axle fatiguing.  A larger flat area on the axle could spread forces out over a larger area reducing loosening problems.  Or they could even maybe do a hex cut on the larger axle and have a matching insert that locks into the pedal support or simply have a larger clamping area.   

The bigger these wheels get the longer the pedal supports become so levering/torque forces increase on the components that secure the pedal supports to the axle.  Imagine if you had a 40 inch wheel with proportionally long pedal support, but you use the same sized axle diameter.  Just imagine the pedal support acting as a lever on the axle and imagine the forces as compared to a 14" wheel's pedal support length.  It would be like have a breaker bar apply force on a small nut.  Something is going to give.  With the Gotways that is the locking inserts.

Are there any downsides to increased axle sizes?  Maybe larger bearings would increase rotational friction?  Or would it be better?

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love
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2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm not going to buy another MSuper V3, but if they come out with a V4 then my checkbox comes out of my pocket real quick :D

Consider there is also another potential customer base. Namely people buying something because it is actually helpful to them and not because they simply need to have it.

The market of people buying their second, third or forth wheel is not the most interesting one, as it will remain for quite some time comparatively small (in comparison to potential new customers).

Edited by Mono
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1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Are there any downsides to increased axle sizes?

Besides of weight, I don't think so.

EDIT: but I wouldn't even be sure that for any given strength specification the thinnest axle does have the minimum weight.

Edited by Mono
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5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

An MSuper type version (short shell) of the KS18S interests me very much.

I'm really looking forward to Gotway's next performance wheel. Although their current lineup is great, they need to churn out newer and newer models. That's how business works. I'm not going to buy another MSuper V3, but if they come out with a V4 then my checkbox comes out of my pocket real quick :D I'm sure that Gotway knows that new product releases keeps interest in their product line high and sells more wheels.

Besides a 100v MSuper V4, I'd love to see a performance 14 inch wheel from Gotway. 1000 watt motor, 800+wh battery, wide tire, trolley handle, etc. Please don't refer me to the lame MCM4 ;)

As far as i know the 14inch "pro" is already anounced. 800Watt, 520wh batterie max, in a case thats a bit modified from the MCM4.

Which performance do you want and for what? I mean an An Msuper v3s+ is easy capable of 55kmh...and i bet you never/very seldom go over 40/45kmh.  Standing on a single wheel, feets not attached to the device, fighting the wind resistance on an 18inch this is (in my view) the max halfway comfortable speed. Perhaps on the 22inch 50kmh are reached once in a while, but as a 22single wheel gets sluggish in moving it around this "bigger wheel" thing also is missing that what makes a one wheel attraktive. 

I also fear that making EUCs that are able to ride a lot over 50kmh, lets say 80kmh, will close the door to legalization in Europe completly. When such wheels are on the market with absolutely no secure in form of redundance we will get loud loughs for trying to drive them in public space :-)

There is a lot to make it better...i have axles and wires in mind. redundance boards with separate batteries would be the game changer in my view. A wheel where on a Mosfet blow or capacitor or cell fail it just drives on and only warns you to change a part? That would be the way to go. Unfortunately A LOT of one wheel drivers did not see the need to work on this, as long they never experienced a real failure while highspeed driving...they just dont have it in mind/view that there is no redundance whatsoever.

 

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On thé improvements side, I am looking for generalisation of trolleys, more energy efficiency, suspensions (I would love it), lighter wheels (carrying my msuper3 2 floors up everyday is a pain), and of course reliability improvements.

On the speed front, I think we have already topped what is reasonable, but torque can probably be improved for high speed wheels (gears like system?).

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12 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Besides a 100v MSuper V4, I'd love to see a performance 14 inch wheel from Gotway. 1000 watt motor, 800+wh battery, wide tire, trolley handle, etc

Yeah, to me the 14-incher is the best form factor for city commuting because of its maneuverability and light weight. Maybe the KS-14S comes close? In the meantime I'm happy with my KS-14C. On our group ride last weekend I had the only 14-inch wheel but had no problem with any of the terrain we took on and made the entire 32-mile ride without recharging.

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3 hours ago, dmethvin said:

Yeah, to me the 14-incher is the best form factor for city commuting because of its maneuverability and light weight. Maybe the KS-14S comes close? In the meantime I'm happy with my KS-14C. On our group ride last weekend I had the only 14-inch wheel but had no problem with any of the terrain we took on and made the entire 32-mile ride without recharging.

Yes, the 14C is a great wheel. I'd love to see Gotway offer a competitive version. The one area where KingSong is clearly ahead of Gotway (IMHO) is the 14 inch form factor.

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8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Yes, the 14C is a great wheel. I'd love to see Gotway offer a competitive version. The one area where KingSong is clearly ahead of Gotway (IMHO) is the 14 inch form factor.

You should try a 14d/s somewhere ....against the new d/s series the 14c is old tobac, perhaps offering 30% of the performance.

And i loved my 14c, also :-)

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1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

You should try a 14d/s somewhere ....against the new d/s series the 14c is old tobac, perhaps offering 30% of the performance.

And i loved my 14c, also :-)

I'm sure that I'm love the 14S (not the D). But I'd still like to see what Gotway could do :)

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5 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Yeah, the the battery spec's are horrible. KingSong offers 840wh, which is great for a 14" wheel. I would never buy the MCMpro based on the battery.

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