em1barns Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 One of the largest multi-brand vendors in France released reliability statistics for the various EUC vendors and models, see https://store.urban360.com/2017/04/04/comparatif-mono-roues-electriques-gyroroues/ . They scored it from 1 (less reliable) to 10 (most reliable) based on their maintenance logs. Needless to say which brand trails behind, but what makes me worried is that the newest the model for Gotway, the less reliable it gets.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electricpen Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Really interesting link, it's interesting to see that Kingsong 16b and ninebot E+ are so low on the reliability chart when by all accounts, the E+ is one of the more reliable wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 55 minutes ago, em1barns said: One of the largest multi-brand vendors in France released reliability statistics for the various EUC vendors and models, see https://store.urban360.com/2017/04/04/comparatif-mono-roues-electriques-gyroroues/ . Thanks for the link! 55 minutes ago, em1barns said: They scored it from 1 (less reliable) to 10 (most reliable) based on their maintenance logs. Needless to say which brand trails behind, but what makes me worried is that the newest the model for Gotway, the less reliable it gets.... Google Translated from the urban website: "The number of wheelers is still too small in France so there are still no serious statistical studies concerning the reliability of the mono-wheels. We have decided, based on our long experience in the field (Urban360 is a Solowheel distributor since 2012 and Multi-brand reseller since 2015), to establish a reliability classification based on the returns processed by our after-sales service. ... This classification is based exclusively on our experience and can not be used as a basis for estimating the overall reliability of a given model; We establish this ranking to guide you in your choice if you trust our expertise and experience of the single wheel." So with the "last GW disaster" they new models have to have gone back at least one time to urban360 for reflashing... Would be interesting how the "based on the returns processed by our after-sales service" is meant in detail... Also some absolute numbers (statistical relevance, as they stated that "The number of wheelers is still too small in France so there are still no serious statistical studies concerning the reliability of the mono-wheels"), etc would have been nice... 38 minutes ago, electricpen said: Really interesting link, it's interesting to see that Kingsong 16b and ninebot E+ are so low on the reliability chart when by all accounts, the E+ is one of the more reliable wheels. KS16B had the "capacitor leg" prob in the beginning causing quite some returns? Also Ninebot E+ seems by now a reliable wheel, it had desastrous firmware updates in the past - frying motherboards, etc... And still now there came up quite some threads from people searching for replacement for their motherboard. Also the E+ is one of the older modells - maybe they count also battery pack replacements due to aged cells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 it's bs the rating. based on bs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
em1barns Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, eddiemoy said: it's bs the rating. based on bs. While they don't provide methodology for the reliability rating (but they do for comfort rating), I don't see an obvious sign of bias. They are direct importer of Gotway (they aren't resellers of Gotway France importer), so Gotway machines are their most expensive and highest margin ones. Yet, they appear as good last. Likewise, for Inmotion wheels, they are resellers of Inmotion France importer, so this is their least margin wheels, another sign that bias is at best limited. These guys are also very knowledgeable, have been in the business for a while, and have French community respect. So without knowing them, please keep your "BS" and be constructive. It is very difficult to get a good reliability index, as you then have to categorize failures: a LED failing should not be treated as a PCB failure that cuts the engine Showing some form of transparency is something we should applaud rather than make joke of.... The other source of confusion that any vendor would have a hard time to avoid is that construction and parts for the same model can vary over time for a given wheel, think about MSuper3 and Kingsong 16b, where the makers had several versions of the same model to correct previously undetected issues. But this is the maker's fault, not the reseller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Chriull said: Would be interesting how the "based on the returns processed by our after-sales service" is meant in detail... Especially a breakdown of the return issues/reasons could be extremely interesting (firmware, user faults, wiring, axle, burned mb,...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, em1barns said: While they don't provide methodology for the reliability rating (but they do for comfort rating), I don't see an obvious sign of bias. They are direct importer of Gotway (they aren't resellers of Gotway France importer), so Gotway machines are their most expensive and highest margin ones. Yet, they appear as good last. Likewise, for Inmotion wheels, they are resellers of Inmotion France importer, so this is their least margin wheels, another sign that bias is at best limited. These guys are also very knowledgeable, have been in the business for a while, and have French community respect. So without knowing them, please keep your "BS" and be constructive. It is very difficult to get a good reliability index, as you then have to categorize failures: a LED failing should not be treated as a PCB failure that cuts the engine Showing some form of transparency is something we should applaud rather than make joke of.... The other source of confusion that any vendor would have a hard time to avoid is that construction and parts for the same model can vary over time for a given wheel, think about MSuper3 and Kingsong 16b, where the makers had several versions of the same model to correct previously undetected issues. But this is the maker's fault, not the reseller. OK, sorry, let me elaborate on the "BS". The rating is their limit experience with the wheels. It is their opinion, not scientific, no details, hence BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 18 minutes ago, eddiemoy said: OK, sorry, let me elaborate on the "BS". The rating is their limit experience with the wheels. It is their opinion, not scientific, no details, hence BS. Beside the BS that is quite exactly what they state in regard to the statistic on their website - they never tried to sell this as a scientific or profound study - just their opinion/experience. Imho their opinion and experience is at least a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electricpen Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 I wonder if the reliability rating is based on the total number or service requests or a percentage... if it is based on the total number of each model they have had to service then the most popular brands would appear as the least reliable. This would explain the ninebot rating since E+ is the oldest and probably outnumbers the other wheels by sheer volume. They probably had to work on the most E+ units but if it doesn't scale with the total number of units owned/sold then it is not a very useful metric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 On 03/08/2017 at 2:22 PM, eddiemoy said: OK, sorry, let me elaborate on the "BS". The rating is their limit experience with the wheels. It is their opinion, not scientific, no details, hence BS. Just because they only process their own data that doesn't mean it is not scientific. That is, in fact, what most scientists do: process and analyse their own data. Even if it is not "scientific" (whatever this means besides being open and honest, and I should know as I am a scientist) and doesn't provide details as well, that still doesn't mean it is BS. I also would prefer (and highly appreciate) if they would give the details how they come up with their scores from 1-9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 59 minutes ago, electricpen said: I wonder if the reliability rating is based on the total number or service requests or a percentage I don't think the urban360 guys are that naive. And I don't think they could even run a business of that size successfully, if you hadn't understood the irrelevance of absolute numbers in this case. As always, I could be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 10 hours ago, em1barns said: what makes me worried is that the newest the model for Gotway, the less reliable it gets that's kind-of old news though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Thanks for the link. The range chart is very accurate as far as I can tell. Now I want a Monster for those 120km... Speeds look more realistic than some other claims too. Not sure about an arbitrary reliability point rating without further explanation. And it's clearly influenced by the Gotway oscillation recall/repairs (msuper V3 so low) which was an outlier as far as current considerations of wheels are concerned. Also, who cares about their overall "we had to repair something" rates? Errors that lead to a cut-out/crash are the important thing (as they initially mention)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: Thanks for the link. The range chart is very accurate as far as I can tell. I concur, very accurate IMHO. Mind you, it looks like they're taking things all the way back to as far as 2012, which means, for a long history'd wheel like the Ninebot One E+, this includes that period a year to 2 years back, where bad/premature firmware rollouts were dropping NB1E+ riders like flies (newbies, just search these forums). Out of the 13 wheels listed on the reliability chart, I've owned or own 5, and including our NYC regular group owners, that brings the total up to 8. By far, both the Ninebot One E+ (during the bad firmware period) and the Gotway 84V series (MSuperV3/ACM) are the wheels with most incident/issues, across years. And for the uninformed: Urban360 is one of the vanguards of EUC in France/Paris AFAICS. They run 2 comprehensively stocked brick + mortar stores (1 in France, 1 in Barcelona) They also stock a good selection of some of the top e-kickboard scooters. They have their own custom, re-spec'd UrbanMCM4 (the Gotway MCM2, despite it's age and older specs, is regarded by some as a holy grail wheel in terms of feel and durability) They run one of the bigger, most active online EUC French forums. They receive prototypes to approve prior to a wheel's release (like most top EUC distributors in the world), and I believe contributed to the input on the recent change/upgrades to the recent revised Rockwheel GT16 (prior to agreeing to stock). I also believe they do group ride meetups, like other French brick + mortar shops do, in Paris, at the very least. Factoring all this, I tend to believe their ratings chart here is not just baseless musings of an amateur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 35 minutes ago, houseofjob said: Out of the 13 wheels listed on the reliability chart, I've owned or own 5, and including our NYC regular group owners, that brings the total up to 8. By far, both the Ninebot One E+ (during the bad firmware period) and the Gotway 84V series (MSuperV3/ACM) are the wheels with most incident/issues, across years. And since these issues are fixed (firmware for both manufacturers), the ranking is misleading for anyone buying a new wheel now, if it's based on their cumulative experience instead of judging the current latest iteration of each wheel It does not look like they removed the Ninebot and Gotway firmware failures from the data... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 49 minutes ago, houseofjob said: Mind you, it looks like they're taking things all the way back to as far as 2012, which means, for a long history'd wheel like the Ninebot One E+, this includes that period a year to 2 years back, where bad/premature firmware rollouts were dropping NB1E+ riders like flies (newbies, just search these forums). Even though the failures of the Ninebot firmwares a couple years ago, and the more recent Gotway firmware failures and the Kingsong axle failures look bad on the surface, at least it shows that they are continually trying to improve their product. (except Ninebot seems to be going to a smaller, safer 14 inch wheel and focusing more on the two wheel Segway type devices) Especially Kingsong and Gotway, with new and improved shell designs and more advanced features, makes me feel good about the future. Speaking of the future, has anyone got any information on Segway day? August 12th. It was showing on the app today. http:bbs.ninebot.cn/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 55 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: And since these issues are fixed (firmware for both manufacturers), the ranking is misleading for anyone buying a new wheel now, if it's based on their cumulative experience instead of judging the current latest iteration of each wheel It does not look like they removed the Ninebot and Gotway firmware failures from the data... True (there's value in both methodologies IMO), but to play devils' advocate here: in the case of the Ninebot One, buyer's have no clue what firmware/stock they are buying or, to newbies, that there exists such a thing as firmware updates. the Ninebot One firmware issues seem a long time ago in EUC years, but 1-2 years is relatively recent and still relevant in any regular industry. I'm sure many newbies here got swept up in the new Gotway 84V hype (admittedly mostly well-deserved) then subsequent melting cable / oscillation fiasco, without fully researching Gotway's well documented QC issues throughout their entire EUC history. I know that latter fact informed myself to be vigilant, and not careless, in purchasing and riding my first Gotway Monster purchase. the Gotway issues are still fresh and extremely valid, relevant and not misleading IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Good point, but only affect heavy/extreme riders IMHO. IMHO gotway has the most powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pingouin Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Hi, Like others, I would not take these results as facts, there are too many variables from a rider to another, from an EUC to another. I've juste noticed something, it seems like with these results, the most reliable EUC are slow to moderate speeders, and high speed EUC seems to be the ones with the most reliability issues. Maybe this is simply linked to speed, because these EUC can go faster, EUC riders will ride them faster therefore all the components are much more solicited. My guess is that if everyone used the HS EUC at speeds of max 20kph like other EUC, then the results would be different. The Gotway issues seem to be mainly linked to speed (except for the oscillation issue, but they aren't the only ones to have firmware issues) as the most reliable Gotway are also the slowest, maybe also because Gotway riders treat there Gotways in a rougher way (juste guessing). It is very difficult to conclude anything about reliability because not a single EUC rider rides the same way From my personal experience, gotways EUCs (mcm4, mcm3, mcm2s, ACM, Monster) are 100% reliable, never a single issue for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
em1barns Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: And since these issues are fixed (firmware for both manufacturers), the ranking is misleading for anyone buying a new wheel now, if it's based on their cumulative experience instead of judging the current latest iteration of each wheel It does not look like they removed the Ninebot and Gotway firmware failures from the data... If you look at the date of their post, it was in April 2017. So this was before the Gotway oscillating firmware issue.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
em1barns Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 7 hours ago, Pingouin said: Hi, Like others, I would not take these results as facts, there are too many variables from a rider to another, from an EUC to another. I've juste noticed something, it seems like with these results, the most reliable EUC are slow to moderate speeders, and high speed EUC seems to be the ones with the most reliability issues. Maybe this is simply linked to speed, because these EUC can go faster, EUC riders will ride them faster therefore all the components are much more solicited. My guess is that if everyone used the HS EUC at speeds of max 20kph like other EUC, then the results would be different. The Gotway issues seem to be mainly linked to speed (except for the oscillation issue, but they aren't the only ones to have firmware issues) as the most reliable Gotway are also the slowest, maybe also because Gotway riders treat there Gotways in a rougher way (juste guessing). It is very difficult to conclude anything about reliability because not a single EUC rider rides the same way From my personal experience, gotways EUCs (mcm4, mcm3, mcm2s, ACM, Monster) are 100% reliable, never a single issue for now. Since Gotway moved to 1500w engines, they showed their lack of engineering skills to adapt the construction and wiring to the challenges of these bigger engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 When it comes to buying a new wheel, I think this kind of data is more an indicator of process than of product. Yes, several products have had problems in the past, and those products were eventually fixed or replaced by better models. However, it's hard to dismiss firmware problems with the Ninebot and Gotway, or the recent literal meltdowns of the Gotways, unless you know that those companies have changed their process to ensure it doesn't happen again. We've seen no evidence, direct or indirect, that EUC makers are being more careful about their product quality than they were a year ago. In the USA, Consumer Reports does an annual auto issue where they analyze reliability data obtained from real-world reader experience. Over many many years, models from Honda or Toyota have been reliable but ones from Fiat or Chrysler have been horrible. Are there reasons to own unreliable cars? Sure, I've owned a couple of Fiats in the past and they were a blast to drive, but they were also super unreliable. There is a phenomenon in psychology called cognitive dissonance where people try to reconcile negative and positive information with their own views or choices. So if some data shows you may not have made the best EUC choice you have several options. For example, attack that data as being wrong (even intentionally malicious), or acknowledge you didn't have that data at the point you made the choice, or discount the value of that data for your own situation because there are other positive aspects (like speed) that matter more to you. I think we could do with less of the first thing. There's nothing wrong with saying you like a Ferrari, even though they're expensive, unreliable and not very practical. Just don't try to convince me they're great reliable family cars because they're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 @dmethvin very well said! Thank you for the cognitive dissonance part, never knew what exactly that psychology was called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 On 04/08/2017 at 0:30 AM, meepmeepmayer said: since these issues are fixed (firmware for both manufacturers), the ranking is misleading for anyone buying a new wheel now Though one point of this kind of data is to judge reliability of manufacturers, to build reputation scores for brands. If a factory has come out with a crap model in the past, why would I trust them to sell an awesomely reliable model in future without to have checked very very carefully? The people who came up with the crap model usually haven't changed after all. They are likely to continue to make wrong or reckless decision unless they come under great pressure to force changes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 This statistical thinking may work for car manufacturers who churn out dozens of models each year. But for such a tiny market like EUCs, not sure if it says much. Also, specifically here standard "repairs" aren't that important, what really counts is cut-outs from hardware failure (and other instant crash hardware failures). These above all else must never happen. Whether a wheel is more or less likely to develop some minor (non-crash) issue is secondary (to me, at least) - given how simple EUCs are and how rare dead LEDs, scratching tires or whatever are - who cares. In the end, if a given model is confirmed good, that's mostly all that counts (to me). Even from a bad manufacturer. And if we judge manufacturers by questionable and outright brain-dead decisions, there's nobody left (but you're right, if there were a similar model from Kingsong and Gotway, nobody would ever buy the GW - there are distinctions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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