Jump to content

Does the KS16B has less torque than the Ninebot E+?


Roland
 Share

Recommended Posts

So I am a beginner and avid reader of this forum. And for various reasons I have started more or less with a ninebot E+ and now I just received a Kingsong 16B. ... When I tried to scale from a standstill a step of less than an inch high the Ninebot was able to do it right away. ... Now using the Kingsong 16B (in player mode) felt like trying to scale a wall. The 16B leaned in and nothing happend without taking this small step with some speed. The Ninebot also seems to be much smoother on crawling speeds (less than 1 kph). Could it be that there are more magnets in the Ninebot? 

 

Roland

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 21.7.2017 at 10:34 PM, Roland said:

So I am a beginner and avid reader of this forum. And for various reasons I have started more or less with a ninebot E+ and now I just received a Kingsong 16B. ... When I tried to scale from a standstill a step of less than an inch high the Ninebot was able to do it right away. ... Now using the Kingsong 16B (in player mode) felt like trying to scale a wall. The 16B leaned in and nothing happend without taking this small step with some speed.

Which firmware version do you have? Starting from standstill against a burden could destroy your wheel!

The KS has a more powerfull motor than the ninebot - try it with a little bit of speed and you'll notice the difference.

KS (and also GW imho) had some probs with "starting the wheel up" - they have some current/power limiter implemented, so the wheel cannot overpower/fry the mosfets but this caused  sometimes with some firmeware versions that they wheel did not "start well from standstill"

On 21.7.2017 at 10:34 PM, Roland said:

The Ninebot also seems to be much smoother on crawling speeds (less than 1 kph).

Yes - have the same memory from my ninebot. Seems he has some better firmware algorithm for controlling the motor at low speeds.

On 21.7.2017 at 10:34 PM, Roland said:

Could it be that there are more magnets in the Ninebot? 

Have no idea - but that should not be the reason...

 

 

 

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firmware is 1.25. and its the 800 watt version... but ... yeah I think I will not do that again ...

And looking at the Gotway battery connection problem (bad diameters for the spottwelded connectors on the cells lead to heatspots of 200+ °C  and molten/burned holes in the battery package - if currents high enough run through) ... sigh ...

That something like such seemingly innocent testing of the abilities could harm your wheel ...
But its interesting ...

It really is a field that is still very much in development ... 

Thank you for the input and the warning ... did not make the connection!

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keep practising. The ride experience differs from Ninebot. It is true there could be an impression of a slight delay before the KS16 starts accelerating, but if you lean a bit more, it will actually launch like a rocket. Of course, I'm not encouraging you to go crazy :) 

Quite the opposite - you need to change your old habits.

For instance, KS16 is much better balanced than 9B1, because it has batteries on both sides (in contrast, Ninebot has battery on one side only). It is very common to have issues with balance after switching from Ninebot, as one of your legs is subconsciously trying to compensate the memorized weight difference.

Also, play a bit with the settings and you'll see after a week you'll be able to keep even better balance at lower speeds than on Ninebot, and you'll be happy nothing is beeping when you exceed 23 km/h ;-) The 30 km/h speed limit is perfect - it makes a huge difference, because most of the time in the city you won't even reach the max. speed, while you will be exceeding 23 km/h very often.

Have fun!

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on this thread I tried going super slow on my new KS16S, and it works great.  I spent a lot of time doing this on my Ninebot One E+ also, sort of a specialty of mine, meh, call it a hobby.  I found that the KS16S balances just great going super slow.  Not sure I'd say it is better than NB1, but it is just as good.  No problem at all.  I love that super slow feeling.  

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, dpong said:

Based on this thread I tried going super slow on my new KS16S, and it works great.  I spent a lot of time doing this on my Ninebot One E+ also, sort of a specialty of mine, meh, call it a hobby.  I found that the KS16S balances just great going super slow.  Not sure I'd say it is better than NB1, but it is just as good.  No problem at all.  I love that super slow feeling.  

Well as I said in the beginning: I tried it from a stand still. Actually  just a door threshold/doorstep, but still about a little less than an inch. The Ninebot was firm - did not lean in and just took me over it (83kg + weight of the ninebot). The KS16B (NOT!  KS16S) leaned in and was not able to climb it. But mind you I only have 800W and also the smalles battery (320Wh). The KS16S is a totally different beast for sure!
(P.S. Mode was the firmest... Player mode)

Edited by Roland
  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Roland said:

The KS16B (NOT!  KS16S) leaned in and was not able to climb it. But mind you I only have 800W and also the smalles battery (320Wh). The KS16S is a totally different beast for sure!
(P.S. Mode was the firmest... Player mode)

Wow, I didn't know Kingsong sold anything with that small of a battery.  That led me to another thread about the differences between the KS16A and KS16B.  So the A was the prototype of the new shell design, and the B was the actual production model, which is what you have.  So you have about the same battery size as the Ninebot.  How do they compare while riding at about 8 to 16 kmh?  Does the motor have more noise in the Kingsong?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, dpong said:

Based on this thread I tried going super slow on my new KS16S, and it works great.  I spent a lot of time doing this on my Ninebot One E+ also, sort of a specialty of mine, meh, call it a hobby.  I found that the KS16S balances just great going super slow.  Not sure I'd say it is better than NB1, but it is just as good.  No problem at all.  I love that super slow feeling.  

I just started trying to go very slow, it's fun.  It seems that I am getting more of a feel for the balance that riding faster doesn't give.  I started doing it to learn backwards riding, and found that I can now do short pendulums of about 10 feet backward to forward up to 5 or 6 times before I have to step off.  I still can't ride backward more than about 10-15 feet at one time, but the pendulum training is progressing faster than just pure going backwards training, and it's more enjoyable.  I feel more in touch with the wheel.

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, steve454 said:

Wow, I didn't know Kingsong sold anything with that small of a battery.  That led me to another thread about the differences between the KS16A and KS16B.  So the A was the prototype of the new shell design, and the B was the actual production model, which is what you have.  So you have about the same battery size as the Ninebot.  How do they compare while riding at about 8 to 16 kmh?  Does the motor have more noise in the Kingsong?

being a beginner and so ... let me lead you to different thread... and yes there is a certain amount of noise:

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Keith said:

Quote: "and most importantly, the user is free to control the rotational speed almost independently of the motor torque." Errrrr. Torque = power/RPM, so that statement is rubbish isn't it, torque is related to RPM by the amount of power you apply - on any motor.

Not sure you are entirely right on this one. Bare with me: you can go at a given speed, say 15km/h, straight, or on an incline, or slightly downhill. The three cases will lead to the application of between almost zero torque (downhill) to maximal torque (incline) at the very same speed. The point is of course that the motor doesn't need to apply its maximal torque/power at any given speed. This being true for "any" speed means that the choice of speed and torque is to a large extend independent (of course there are limits, as the maximal torque depends decisively on speed). I agree that the wording in the article is chosen rather strangely though. And the link is certainly also a disguised ad. 

Edited by Mono
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mono said:

Not sure you are entirely right on this one. Bare with me: you can go at a given speed, say 15km/h, straight, or on an incline, or slightly downhill.

Ah, @Mono, you've picked up the wrong emphasis on what I quoted. First of all downhill, uphill, on the straight at the same speed will all use different amounts of power so in each case the torque applied will be proportional to the power applied (as in these examples RPM is a constant If speed doesn't change). I.e. you don't control the speed independently of the torque, it is the power, and hence torque you apply that controls the speed - in any given terrain/condition. You really cannot say torque power and speed are independent of each other. I.e. Given static outside conditions, a hill of constant incline for example, if you wish to go slower or faster (I.e. "Control the rotational speed") then you have to change the power and therefore torque - they are not independent, only varied by outside conditions (change in hill gradient etc.) 

However, the key thing was that the article said: "most importantly <for a brushless motor>The user is free to control the rotational speed etc.etc.etc." surely, as in the examples you gave above you can do that for any electric motor, it is a nonsense to infer it is special to BLDC motors - that was the point I was making.

Edited by Keith
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It depends of what we define as control parameter. Using the environment as control parameter (it is a parameter we can indeed actually control, i.e. we have control over where we ride), we can get within the physical limits any torque independently of speed or any speed independently of torque. That's all, and in a very broad sense it justifies to say "the user is free to control the rotational speed almost independently of the motor torque".

EDIT: Reading the paragraph in the article in the most charitable way, I would say that this is what the author meant: the motor has the feature to adapt to any environmental condition by a free "choice" of speed and torque.

1 hour ago, Keith said:

However, the key thing was that the article said: "most importantly <for a brushless motor>The user is free to control the rotational speed etc.etc.etc."

Sorry, that was not reflected in your previous quote and I didn't go through the article, I just commented on the quote you gave, so I missed the context. 

Edited by Mono
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Justina said:

The web is still lacking proper content regarding electric unicycles, that's why we're trying to create high quality content. So did you guys come to a conclusion in regard to the article, or still aren't sure? In physics there should only be one truth, there's no place for "maybe". If you are 100% sure the quoted sentences are false, I will forward your feedback. Proper corrections will be applied. If the errors are not related to incorrect translation (the original text is not in English, and the translator doesn't have any engineering knowledge), the author is so fired :)

OK, I now I have read the article. While I have a higher education in mathematics and engineering, I don't really know myself any of the details of electric motors. I only can judge by my educated common sense. From there, I may figure a few possible inaccuracies or oversimplifications, but I don't see anything obviously wrong. I know that technical writing is always a delicate balance between intelligible briefness and comprehensive accuracy.

Edited by Mono
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Keith said:

ferro-magnets is the term used for purely iron magnets

The word ferromagnetic (as opposed to paramagnetic, diamagnetic, and antiferromagnetic) is apparently also used for the type of magnetism, independently of the material.

"Only a few substances are ferromagnetic; the most common ones are ironnickel and cobalt and their alloys. The prefix ferro- refers to iron, because permanent magnetism was first observed in lodestone, a form of natural iron ore called magnetite, Fe3O4.". 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetism

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/1/2017 at 9:48 AM, Christoph Zens said:

What I noticed is that on the ninebot, there is no dead-band. Standing on the pedals (holding on to a wall), I can do very small weight shifts (forward/backward) and the wheel immediately responds with motor movement. On my KS16S, there is a dead-band where I can tilt the pedals back and forth a little without any reaction from the motor. In this small zone, it feels like the wheel is off and not balancing at all. When going super slow, this dead-band may add a subtle weird feeling, as the "input" on the pedals is extremely small, and the rider could notice that the wheel doesn't respond to that tiny change in balance he was just executing. I usually do not notice the dead-band during normal riding, but the stand-still test is very reproducible. Anyone else can confirm this, or is it only my wheel?

I have noticed a dead-band on the ninebot E+ when the riding sensitivity is set to 6 or higher, not while riding but when slowing down and reversing or just standing on the wheel holding on to something and rocking back and forth.   When set at hard pedals riding mode, I don't feel a dead-band.  Is your KS16S set at the hardest setting?  Does the dead-band get larger at the softer setting?  I always thought it felt weird on the ninebot to have that, I just thought it was poor algorithm or something.  I am on the latest firmware 1.4.0

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, steve454 said:

I have noticed a dead-band on the ninebot E+ when the riding sensitivity is set to 6 or higher, not while riding but when slowing down and reversing or just standing on the wheel holding on to something and rocking back and forth.   When set at hard pedals riding mode, I don't feel a dead-band.  Is your KS16S set at the hardest setting?  Does the dead-band get larger at the softer setting?  I always thought it felt weird on the ninebot to have that, I just thought it was poor algorithm or something.  I am on the latest firmware 1.4.0

Good point. I was comparing the NB1 fw 1.4.0 at setting 3 to the KS16S at riding mode (medium setting). That seems to be an invalid comparison. I will try again with the KS16S set to player mode (hardest setting). Maybe the dead-band goes away. I always assumed that such a dead-band must be an unwanted motor controller flaw, as softer riding modes should only decrease the sensitivity to balance errors. But as the sensitivity decreases, very small errors may turn out to result in no motor movement.

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...