Rehab1 Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 I had a lengthy phone conversation with Ian today about the ACM and MSuper wiring issues. After he updated the bullet wiring connectors depicted in the video he was still able to produce enough heat at the bullet connector sites when riding to cause indentations in the clear insulated covers generated from the heat! His feeling was the same as mine. If these clear insulator sleeves were ever melt then all 3 wires would come in direct contact with each other and it would result in major damage. He agrees we need larger motor wires but drilling out the axle shaft would result in axle breakage. Here is his video on changing out the motor connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 20 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: I had a lengthy phone conversation with Ian today about the ACM and MSuper wiring issues. After he updated the bullet wiring connectors depicted in the video he was still able to produce enough heat at the bullet connector sites when riding to cause indentations in the clear insulated covers generated from the heat! His feeling was the same as mine. If these clear insulator sleeves were ever melt then all 3 wires would come in direct contact with each other and it would result in major damage. He agrees we need larger motor wires but drilling out the axle shaft would result in axle breakage. Here is his video on changing out the motor connectors. Very informative video, he even tells how to remove the bluetooth module at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 Vey interesting! Though I had to destroy your nice 4444 reputation count, so hope you enjoyed it while it lasted How did this conversation happen? I'm curious. Good to know the "too thin cables and ultimately axles" thing is getting more known. -- Also, what Ian does in the video... seems subpar. Why is he not soldering anything, isn't that usually done? But okay, if the connectors hold just from crimping, fine. Instead of heatshrink, he just uses some tubing that is only held on the spot (and therefore stops the wheel from shorting and the rider from crashing) with one cable tie, which also pushes the hot connectors together (instead of having them separated or at least loosely hanging instead of pressed together) - if I wanted to build a predictable point of failure for the future, that's what I would do. Seems really sketchy tbh if the stuff already gets almost meltingly hot from normal riding instead of overcurrents! Also, one layer of protection is awfully little - didn't you use heatshrink plus then some other mesh stuff (or at least 2 layers of heatshrink)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 12 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Vey interesting! Though I had to destroy your nice 4444 reputation count, so hope you enjoyed it while it lasted I almost did it, but waited for someone else to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 Everybody wants to be second! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 Yours is next, with 444 at the end Almost hate to change it, looks so nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 I see what you are up to. You're 555 now, there you have it Now we have the same problem, and also this topic has an offtopic problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted July 7, 2017 Author Share Posted July 7, 2017 29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: How did this conversation happen? I'm curious. Good to know the "too thin cables and ultimately axles" thing is getting more known. I had originally called to find out about purchasing a main board for my grandson's NB1. Customer service passed me over to Ian. I have spoken to him in the past about his involvement in specialized wheelchairs and also my Luffy I purchased from him for rehab research. In any event we got to talking about the wiring issues. I also shared some of my research. 29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Also, what Ian does in the video... seems subpar. Why is he not soldering anything, isn't that usually done? But okay, if the connectors hold just from crimping, fine. Instead of heatshrink, he just uses some tubing that is only held on the spot (and therefore stops the wheel from shorting and the rider from crashing) with one cable tie, which also pushes the hot connectors together (instead of having them separated or at least loosely hanging instead of pressed together) - if I wanted to build a predictable point of failure for the future, that's what I would do. Seems really sketchy tbh if the stuff already gets almost meltingly hot from normal riding instead of overcurrents! This was not his idea. Gotway provided the exact details for the fix. I suppose he needs to follow protocol for the warranty to remain in effect! In fact @Marty Backehas a photo of this new technique. He said GW must feel that if the insulation is left open at each end the heat will dissipate better. I'm sorry but this is bullshit! Ian then went for a strenuous ride after the update and reopened the wheel afterwards (not sure which wheel he used) and he saw signs of the clear tubing beginning to indent from heat next to the connectors. He also said the 5mm connectors were a difficult to compress inside the shell. Myself I am sticking with 4mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 15 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: I had originally called to find out about purchasing a main board for my grandson's NB1. Customer service passed me over to Ian. I have spoken to him in the past about his involvement in specialized wheelchairs and also my Luffy I purchased from him for rehab research. In any event we got to talking about the wiring issues. I also shared some of my research. This was not his idea. Gotway provided the exact details for the fix. I suppose he needs to follow protocol for the warranty to remain in effect! In fact @Marty Backehas a photo of this new technique. He said GW must feel that if the insulation is left open at each end the heat will dissipate better. I'm sorry but this is bullshit! Ian then went for a strenuous ride after the update and reopened the wheel afterwards (not sure which wheel he used) and he saw signs of the clear tubing beginning to indent from heat next to the connectors. He also said the 5mm connectors were a difficult to compress inside the shell. Myself I am sticking with 4mm. I'm afraid to say that I'm not impressed with Ian's work, but I guess if it gets the job done that's all that matters. When I get my new ACM motor I will be soldering the wires together and will be installing separators along the three cables to keep them from touching. Using a zip-tie as Ian does seems insane to me. After seeing first hand how these cables can melt under the right conditions, the last thing I want to do is tie them together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 49 minutes ago, steve454 said: Very informative video, he even tells how to remove the bluetooth module at the end. Don't you love the use of scissors for stripping the wire? ( @Carlos E Rodriguez - I know you'll love this technique ) I know he says that he's using them to show that it can be done, but I prefer watching people demonstrate high standards that I can strive to meet, instead of low standards that anyone can meet. That's just me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: Don't you love the use of scissors for stripping the wire? ( @Carlos E Rodriguez - I know you'll love this technique ) I know he says that he's using them to show that it can be done, but I prefer watching people demonstrate high standards that I can strive to meet, instead of low standards that anyone can meet. That's just me though. Those crimpers looked flimsy, but seemed to work okay. But like you, I prefer higher standards. The scissors used for wire stripping, that went a little too far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 1 minute ago, steve454 said: Those crimpers looked flimsy, but seemed to work okay. True, but just to be clear I was talking about the scissors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 58 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: True, but just to be clear I was talking about the scissors. Oh, I know, not only was he using scissors, but they were very inexpensive scissors. . But I have used a single edge razor blade to strip wire, so it didn't seem too far fetched. I just bypassed the scissors because it looked like he was showing that anyone, with even the most basic tools, could replace the main board on a Gotway, probably to save the trouble of sending dozens of wheels back to the seller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: I'm afraid to say that I'm not impressed with Ian's work, but I guess if it gets the job done that's all that matters. When I get my new ACM motor I will be soldering the wires together and will be installing separators along the three cables to keep them from touching. Using a zip-tie as Ian does seems insane to me. After seeing first hand how these cables can melt under the right conditions, the last thing I want to do is tie them together. You should post a photo of the zip tie separator technique! It is impressive! If Gotway implements a specific repair technique I assume dealers must follow it. Sad! @Jason McNeil are you aware of this recent update using 5 mm bullet connectors and clear tubing over the bullets for insulation? Do you receive official notices from GW on repair methods they have established? Are you mandated to follow their specific repair guidelines to maintain warranties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 2 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Don't you love the use of scissors for stripping the wire? That did shock me a bit! When I counted the strands of the 14 awg motor wires (not the silicone wires attached to the board) there were only 40 wires in the bundle. Unless you are extremely adroit using the scissor stripping technique the chances are pretty high that you are going to nick a few of the strands. Those tiny individual wires are now attenuated and could fracture. Given the history of the numerous melted wire issues we need all the strands we can get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 Here is an excellent video on the proper method for soldering bullet connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Rehab1 said: You should post a photo of the zip tie separator technique! It is impressive! If Gotway implements a specific repair technique I assume dealers must follow it. Sad! @Jason McNeil are you aware of this recent update using 5 mm bullet connectors and clear tubing over the bullets for insulation? Do you receive official notices from GW on repair methods they have established? Are you mandated to follow their specific repair guidelines to maintain warranties? I'm pretty sure that this is the simple technique that I'm going to use to keep my ACM wires separated. So even if the insulation gets nice and soft the wires can't short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 41 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: Here is an excellent video on the proper method for soldering bullet connectors. Beautiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 Thanks a lot for the detailed answer! And the thread in the first place. 4 hours ago, Rehab1 said: This was not his idea. Gotway provided the exact details for the fix. I suppose he needs to follow protocol for the warranty to remain in effect! In fact @Marty Backehas a photo of this new technique. When you think it can't be worse, you hear something like this... mandated by Gotway?! 4 hours ago, Rehab1 said: He said GW must feel that if the insulation is left open at each end the heat will dissipate better. I'm sorry but this is bullshit! Yep. This definitely is the most stupid thing I've heard for a very long time 4 hours ago, Rehab1 said: Ian then went for a strenuous ride after the update and reopened the wheel afterwards (not sure which wheel he used) and he saw signs of the clear tubing beginning to indent from heat next to the connectors. I wonder if the damage aggregates. Then this would be a guarantee for disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 4 hours ago, Marty Backe said: I'm afraid to say that I'm not impressed with Ian's work, but I guess if it gets the job done that's all that matters. I wonder if it even does the job, or for how long reliably... it is a bit disturbing to see this. 4 hours ago, Marty Backe said: When I get my new ACM motor I will be soldering the wires together and will be installing separators along the three cables to keep them from touching. Best idea I think! Who needs connectors, permanently join the cables and done. Even if you have to redo, all cables are long enough. 4 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Using a zip-tie as Ian does seems insane to me. After seeing first hand how these cables can melt under the right conditions, the last thing I want to do is tie them together. Insane is the right word. The tie is not the only thing holding the minimal bits of plastic that prevent the entire wheel from frying, it also actively presses the hot parts together. This can't go well for long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 6 hours ago, Rehab1 said: ... and also my Luffy I purchased from him for rehab research. That sounds extremely tax deductible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 9 hours ago, Marty Backe said: When I get my new ACM motor I will be soldering the wires together and will be installing separators along the three cables to keep them from touching. Using a zip-tie as Ian does seems insane to me. After seeing first hand how these cables can melt under the right conditions, the last thing I want to do is tie them together. Just make sure you use a high temperature solder. Most will have a small content of silver. The problem I see is soldering the fine 400 strand count silicone wires coming off the mainboard to the 40 strand count motor wires. You need to make sure your solder penetrates to the inner core of both wires for a good connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 3 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: That sounds extremely tax deductible! Are your a IRS agent in disguise? Unfortunately Luffy has not made it out to Rehab Dynamics for trial yet. The only time everyone can get tougher is on Mondays where I am book out 3 months and Saturdays which begins my 2 days of rest. After summer is over there will more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 Update 16th: Mostly a false alarm, the video in the OP only shows half of the process (for whatever reason). They do NOT end with a loose piece of plastic and the entire wheel's integrity just held together with one cable tie. Original post: Having slept on it, I can't get over this. I think this thread made me lose all confidence and hope in Gotway, and that at least in the future we can expect anything reasonable from them To recap: When a wire is disconnected, you inevitably crash without warning. When any of the uninsulated wires/bare connectors touch, they short the wheel (which will most likely mean you have to replace the board and possibly also the motor) and you also inevitably crash without warning So what do they do? Crimp-only the connectors (no solder), simply slide a loose plastic insulating heat protection whatever tube over each one, and zip the connectors together tightly (it has to hold together after all) with a single run-of-the-mill cable tie. This cable tie is the only thing holding the mutual insulation in place and preventing the wheel from shorting. And: The lack of soldering means a higher resistance of the connectors, which means they heat up faster (if I understood that right why you usually solder in the first place) Tieing the connectors together means the (unnecessarily hot due to no solder) connectors get as hot as you possibly can get them (if you did it on purpose) We know from experience that the cables and connectors can get extremely hot from high currents as produced on steep hills, so hot that they can melt whatever solder Gotway used in the old (replaced) connector process; and that they even melt the motor cable insulation itself. We're talking 150°C or something like that! Oh, and this is when the (hot) cables/connectors are loosely hanging inside the wheel and not touching each other, and especially are not pressed against each other (like the connectors are now) So: Did anybody mention yet the little bit of plastic insulation, you know the loose one only held in place by a single cable tie, you know the thin, meek, only insulation that stops the wheel from shorting, already shows heat damage after one strenuous (but not hugely overcurrented) test ride???!!! Remember how the tight cable tie presses the insulation (the one with the heat damage after one ride) together between the 3 really hot connectors? Oh, and for what temperature is that home-depot-grade cable tie rated again? I'm sure it would never melt or fail or anything. And this is how f**king Gotway tells everyone how to do repairs!!! Will they even produce their wheels this way now??? I know absolutely nothing about electrics and how to do such stuff, but even I can see this is a competence disaster of biblical proportions on the part of Gotway. Seriously, how can you expect any of the future Gotway wheels being designed with even the slightest modicum of competence if they can't do basic electrical connections right? The only question is, how and when does this predictable failure happen? Will the tie fail first? Will the plastic insulation fail first? Please correct me where I'm wrong, but it's hard for me to see how this stuff could possibly be in any way ok... -- If I were Ian, I would not dare repair wheels this way and give them to my customers, this is a more or less guaranteed horrible crash in their future, is it not? Kingsong it is from now on. Doing long rides with my 1300Wh ACM already told me I'd like a >2000Wh wheel, but I will have to wait until KS has such an offering. My trust in Gotway's competence and the design quality of their possible future wheels is now at zero. I consider the fact my ACM reliably works (at least it is well known what it can and can't do) pure coincidence or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 31 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Having slept on it, I can't get over this. I think this thread made me lose all confidence and hope in Gotway, and that at least in the future we can expect anything reasonable from them To recap: When a wire is disconnected, you inevitably crash without warning. When any of the uninsulated wires/bare connectors touch, they short the wheel (which will most likely mean you have to replace the board and possibly also the motor) and you also inevitably crash without warning So what do they do? Crimp-only the connectors (no solder), simply slide a loose plastic insulating heat protection whatever tube over each one, and zip the connectors together tightly (it has to hold together after all) with a single run-of-the-mill cable tie. This cable tie is the only thing holding the mutual insulation in place and preventing the wheel from shorting. And: The lack of soldering means a higher resistance of the connectors, which means they heat up faster (if I understood that right why you usually solder in the first place) Tieing the connectors together means the (unnecessarily hot due to no solder) connectors get as hot as you possibly can get them (if you did it on purpose) We know from experience that the cables and connectors can get extremely hot from high currents as produced on steep hills, so hot that they can melt whatever solder Gotway used in the old (replaced) connector process; and that they even melt the motor cable insulation itself. We're talking 150°C or something like that! Oh, and this is when the (hot) cables/connectors are loosely hanging inside the wheel and not touching each other, and especially are not pressed against each other (like the connectors are now) So: Did anybody mention yet the little bit of plastic insulation, you know the loose one only held in place by a single cable tie, you know the thin, meek, only insulation that stops the wheel from shorting, already shows heat damage after one strenuous (but not hugely overcurrented) test ride???!!! Remember how the tight cable tie presses the insulation (the one with the heat damage after one ride) together between the 3 really hot connectors? Oh, and for what temperature is that home-depot-grade cable tie rated again? I'm sure it would never melt or fail or anything. And this is how f**king Gotway tells everyone how to do repairs!!! Will they even produce their wheels this way now??? I know absolutely nothing about electrics and how to do such stuff, but even I can see this is a competence disaster of biblical proportions on the part of Gotway. Seriously, how can you expect any of the future Gotway wheels being designed with even the slightest modicum of competence if they can't do basic electrical connections right? The only question is, how and when does this predictable failure happen? Will the tie fail first? Will the plastic insulation fail first? Please correct me where I'm wrong, but it's hard for me to see how this stuff could possibly be in any way ok... -- If I were Ian, I would not dare repair wheels this way and give them to my customers, this is a more or less guaranteed horrible crash in their future, is it not? Kingsong it is from now on. Doing long rides with my 1300Wh ACM already told me I'd like a >2000Wh wheel, but I will have to wait until KS has such an offering. My trust in Gotway's competence and the design quality of their possible future wheels is now at zero. I consider the fact my ACM reliably works (at least it is well known what it can and can't do) pure coincidence or whatever. I can't disagree with much of what you've written. Of course (you know me) I'm not giving up on my Gotway wheels, but I will no longer climb steep hills with no rest periods to allow for a bit of a cool down. I'll recommend the same to other people. And I will periodically open the shell to inspect the cabling. I'm also going to modify my wiring harness to separate the three motor cables the best that I can. And also separate the Hall Sensor cabling from the motor cables - when my ACM motor cables melted, the control board was destroyed along with one of the hall sensors, thus I got to buy a new motor too I do think that for flatland riding and such, the wheels should be fine. Even for a lot of the mountain riding I do, most of it does not involve 20+ degree slopes, where the trouble begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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