If you fell off EUC and got injured in the last few years, how are you all doing now?

[Mono]

10 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I have an iron framed city bike that's a replica of the English 3-speeds of the 1930-1940's. There is no crashing at high speeds, or even really ever getting yourself in trouble on it. In contrast I also ride a carbon fiber and aluminum bike, and with its skinny wheels one crashes hard and fast despite one's best efforts to go slow. In fact, I bought the English 3-speed because I was going too fast.

Wear a helmet when you're looking for trouble. It allows you to crash harder and faster than you otherwise could, with the same injuries.

A foreseeable way how helmet use and injury chance become positively correlated in your case. 

[Scatcat]

There are a few variables that may heighten the risk of injury with a helmet:

• You engage in higher risk behaviour, with a false sense of security. That was mainly @Mono's point about how he rides safely, I think.
• Other unconsciously perceive you as less vulnerable, thereby taking less consideration to their interaction with you.
• You fail to train for and prepare for accidents, relying solely on passive protection.

We can discuss to the energy death of the universe if the statistics show that helmets lessens or heightens the general risks in the piste, on the bike, the EUC or the motorbike. We can discuss the culture of fear which creates a situation where people stop using bikes because of helmet laws, when the actual numbers show that most people will never have any serious accidents in their daily biking.

But it becomes a bit too academic for me, and I am a bloody academic to begin with.

I know I said I wouldn't try to convince @caelus to use a helmet, and I won't. He's free not to, I don't give a sh-t. The only reason I chip in, is that we're not even mixing apples and pears - more like herring and chocolate, until it all becomes a stinking goo.

As I see it there are two distinct discourses: One is statistical acrobatics about whether helmets overall lessens, heightens or are neutral in respect to the total amount of accidents and head-injuries. The other is what happens in an actual accident - all else being equal.

For me the statistical acrobatics may be an interesting intellectual discussion. But the consequences of falling on my EUC isn't.

One of the swedes that used to ride EUCs and were active in the Swedish EUC group on Facebook recently promised his kids never to ride again and sold his gear.

The reason are the four titanium plates that replace broken bones in his face. He was lucky enough that the surgery went well, and he looks almost as new, but the pictures of him before surgery was truly scary. If I remember correctly he had fractures in zygomatic, mandible, nasal and supraorbital bones - or to speak English, his face had caved in.

He got off without detriments, but he could easily have lost an eye or looked like some frankenmonster afterwards.

The thing that happened AFAIK was moderately high speed and a pot-hole. Hitting the pot-hole, the remaining torque wasn't enough to get him out, and he slammed. He slammed fast enough that he didn't even get his hands out to protect his head.

He had protection, but not a full face helmet. Even so, what was left of the helmet he had was scrap plastic. Your guess is as good as mine if he would have survived without it.

[caelus]

56 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

There are a few variables that may heighten the risk of injury with a helmet:

• You engage in higher risk behaviour, with a false sense of security. That was mainly @Mono's point about how he rides safely, I think.
• Other unconsciously perceive you as less vulnerable, thereby taking less consideration to their interaction with you.
• You fail to train for and prepare for accidents, relying solely on passive protection.

There are a lot more ways in which a helmet does increase your risk. Unfortunately this article on the human head biomechanics is in German, but google gives this ok translation. It is the best article on helmets I know of:
"There is therefore some evidence that the measured impact of the Seattle study was actually caused by the very opposite effect: significantly more injured and slightly more head injured through the helmet."

I am just an advocate of well informed decisions. And one has to realize that in cycling, skiing, and motorcycling helmets could never show any benefit in any real world statistics (if you can find one, that would be a big surprise). And thus it is highly likely that there is some general flaw with the whole idea of helmets.

Edited September 3, 2017 by caelus

[LanghamP]

58 minutes ago, caelus said:

There are a lot more ways in which a helmet does increase your risk. Unfortunately this article on the human head biomechanics is in German, but google gives this ok translation. It is the best article on helmets I know of:
"There is therefore some evidence that the measured impact of the Seattle study was actually caused by the very opposite effect: significantly more injured and slightly more head injured through the helmet."

I am just an advocate of well informed decisions. And one has to realize that in cycling, skiing, and motorcycling helmets could never show any benefit in any real world statistics (if you can find one, that would be a big surprise). And thus it is highly likely that there is some general flaw with the whole idea of helmets.

There's a pretty easy way of testing the effectiveness of protective gear.

Don't pad your wheel.

Better yet, pad one wheel but don't pad the other. At the end of the year check which one has more damage.

[Pard]

1 hour ago, caelus said:

There are a lot more ways in which a helmet does increase your risk. Unfortunately this article on the human head biomechanics is in German, but google gives this ok translation. It is the best article on helmets I know of:
"There is therefore some evidence that the measured impact of the Seattle study was actually caused by the very opposite effect: significantly more injured and slightly more head injured through the helmet."

I am just an advocate of well informed decisions. And one has to realize that in cycling, skiing, and motorcycling helmets could never show any benefit in any real world statistics (if you can find one, that would be a big surprise). And thus it is highly likely that there is some general flaw with the whole idea of helmets.

What about gloves?  Any evidence that they help prevent injury?

[Pard]

"I'm sorry but there is just no solid evidence that gloves prevent injury. There is no design minimum safety standard for manufacturers to adhere to either. I've seen injuries result from gloves gripping the ground on impact and causing twisting injuries. There are also cases where the increased padding connected to the ground when a bare hand wouldn't have and could have avoided a crash. I'll stick to wearing my helmet thanks, but don't you dare make gloves compulsory! "

 

The above is a comment in section below the following article.

 

http://road.cc/content/news/164652-why-do-cyclists-wear-gloves

 

Why do cyclists wear gloves?

[Pard]

We’re getting bum deal, say Canterbury's naked bike ride protesters

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/canterbury/news/were-getting-a-bum-deal-126228/

 

These guys have the right idea.  No clothing at all is the safest way to ride any open uncaged vehicle.

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, Scatcat said:

There are a few variables that may heighten the risk of injury with a helmet:

• You engage in higher risk behaviour, with a false sense of security. That was mainly @Mono's point about how he rides safely, I think.
• Other unconsciously perceive you as less vulnerable, thereby taking less consideration to their interaction with you.
• You fail to train for and prepare for accidents, relying solely on passive protection.

We can discuss to the energy death of the universe if the statistics show that helmets lessens or heightens the general risks in the piste, on the bike, the EUC or the motorbike. We can discuss the culture of fear which creates a situation where people stop using bikes because of helmet laws, when the actual numbers show that most people will never have any serious accidents in their daily biking.

But it becomes a bit too academic for me, and I am a bloody academic to begin with.

I know I said I wouldn't try to convince @caelus to use a helmet, and I won't. He's free not to, I don't give a sh-t. The only reason I chip in, is that we're not even mixing apples and pears - more like herring and chocolate, until it all becomes a stinking goo.

As I see it there are two distinct discourses: One is statistical acrobatics about whether helmets overall lessens, heightens or are neutral in respect to the total amount of accidents and head-injuries. The other is what happens in an actual accident - all else being equal.

For me the statistical acrobatics may be an interesting intellectual discussion. But the consequences of falling on my EUC isn't.

One of the swedes that used to ride EUCs and were active in the Swedish EUC group on Facebook recently promised his kids never to ride again and sold his gear.

The reason are the four titanium plates that replace broken bones in his face. He was lucky enough that the surgery went well, and he looks almost as new, but the pictures of him before surgery was truly scary. If I remember correctly he had fractures in zygomatic, mandible, nasal and supraorbital bones - or to speak English, his face had caved in.

He got off without detriments, but he could easily have lost an eye or looked like some frankenmonster afterwards.

The thing that happened AFAIK was moderately high speed and a pot-hole. Hitting the pot-hole, the remaining torque wasn't enough to get him out, and he slammed. He slammed fast enough that he didn't even get his hands out to protect his head.

He had protection, but not a full face helmet. Even so, what was left of the helmet he had was scrap plastic. Your guess is as good as mine if he would have survived without it.

Scary story  Makes me think harder about getting a full face helmet.

[Scatcat]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Scary story  Makes me think harder about getting a full face helmet.

Yes, me too.

If I get one, I'm going to make sure it is a MIPS-helmet, to minimise those rotational forces.

[Scatcat]

4 hours ago, caelus said:

There are a lot more ways in which a helmet does increase your risk. Unfortunately this article on the human head biomechanics is in German, but google gives this ok translation. It is the best article on helmets I know of:
"There is therefore some evidence that the measured impact of the Seattle study was actually caused by the very opposite effect: significantly more injured and slightly more head injured through the helmet."

I am just an advocate of well informed decisions. And one has to realize that in cycling, skiing, and motorcycling helmets could never show any benefit in any real world statistics (if you can find one, that would be a big surprise). And thus it is highly likely that there is some general flaw with the whole idea of helmets.

Let's put this in simple terms @caelus.

Do you think my acquaintance, the swede with the titanium inserts, would be alive today without his helmet?

He went full body slam, and you can read the litania of injuries he suffered above. No evasions, no statistical speculations, no "he might not have had that accident if..." - just your honest judgement if he would still be with us.

[caelus]

26 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

Do you think my acquaintance, the swede with the titanium inserts, would be alive today without his helmet?

I have no idea what happened to him.
Was it a faceplant? So a full face helmet might have helped? Did he crash to the floor or was there some obstacle? How fast did he go?

We could maybe learn from his accident and draw consequences from it.

26 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

would be alive today without his helmet?

In general, I don't see that EUC riding requires a helmet. Since most of us do not go very fast, usually do not have obstacles in the way (as mountainbikers do, for example), don't ride in heavy traffic, if we fall, we do so from a very low stand, there's nothing in the way to collide with, we have a frontal stance and usually - maybe up to 30km/h - should be able to stop the fall with our feet and hands.

A cut-off fall might be a different story. But - hopefully - technology and our knowledge improve, so that cut-off crashes become very rare.  

Edited September 3, 2017 by caelus

[Scatcat]

22 minutes ago, caelus said:

I have no idea what happened to him.
Was it a faceplant? So a full face helmet might have helped? Did he crash to the floor or was there some obstacle? How fast did he go?

We could maybe learn from his accident and draw consequences from it.

In general, I don't see that EUC riding requires a helmet. Since most of us do not go very fast, usually do not have obstacles in the way (as mountainbikers do, for example), don't ride in heavy traffic, if we fall, we do so from a very low stand, there's nothing in the way to collide with, we have a frontal stance and usually - maybe up to 30km/h - should be able to stop the fall with our feet and hands.

A cut-off fall might be a different story. But - hopefully - technology and our knowledge improve, so that cut-off crashes become very rare.  

Medium high speed, somewhere between 25-35kmh / 16-22mph. A pot-hole that was sudden enough and deep enough to cause a cut-out. Full body slam, fast enough that he didn't even have time to catch himself.

So yes, it was a faceplant, it was faceplant 1.0.1. Flat on the ground with helmet smashed and face smashed just after the helmet. Four titanium plates to replace/reinforce fractured bones in the face. Before surgery he looked like he'd met the business-end of a sledge-hammer.

He was lucky that there was no rotational impact, so no permanent brain damage just concussion.

[Marty Backe]

35 minutes ago, caelus said:

I have no idea what happened to him.
Was it a faceplant? So a full face helmet might have helped? Did he crash to the floor or was there some obstacle? How fast did he go?

We could maybe learn from his accident and draw consequences from it.

In general, I don't see that EUC riding requires a helmet. Since most of us do not go very fast, usually do not have obstacles in the way (as mountainbikers do, for example), don't ride in heavy traffic, if we fall, we do so from a very low stand, there's nothing in the way to collide with, we have a frontal stance and usually - maybe up to 30km/h - should be able to stop the fall with our feet and hands.

A cut-off fall might be a different story. But - hopefully - technology and our knowledge improve, so that cut-off crashes become very rare.  

Do you actually ride a wheel? You just made a bunch of blanket statements which don't strike me as true.

[caelus]

3 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

A pot-hole that was sudden enough and deep enough to cause a cut-out. Full body slam, fast enough that he didn't even have time to catch himself.

In first place, this kind of accident should be adressed. Sounds like the oscillation problem, some Gotway have.
I don't see, how a helmet should be beneficial in case of a faceplant if it is not a full face helmet.

[caelus]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Do you actually ride a wheel? You just made a bunch of blanket statements which don't strike me as true.

I have an Airwheel X8 since 2 years and ride it on a daly basis, but it is rather slow. Bought a Gotway MCM V3 recently.
Never had a fall, fingers crossed. But had several overlean and low power cut-outs with the Airwheel and also the Gotway at low speed.
So not much experience at higher speed yet. But I have several longboards and skates with which I regularly go much faster.

[Marty Backe]

42 minutes ago, caelus said:

I have an Airwheel X8 since 2 years and ride it on a daly basis, but it is rather slow. Bought a Gotway MCM V3 recently.
Never had a fall, fingers crossed. But had several overlean and low power cut-outs with the Airwheel and also the Gotway at low speed.
So not much experience at higher speed yet. But I have several longboards and skates with which I regularly go much faster.

Well that's good to know to place context with the statements you made in this paragraph:

"Since most of us do not go very fast, usually do not have obstacles in the way (as mountainbikers do, for example), don't ride in heavy traffic, if we fall, we do so from a very low stand, there's nothing in the way to collide with, we have a frontal stance and usually - maybe up to 30km/h - should be able to stop the fall with our feet and hands."

Many of us do ride at higher speeds, and there are lots of obstacles that we inadvertently hit. I think it's a safe bet that there are 10's of thousands of performance wheels being ridden, and they aren't being ridden at Airwheel speeds. If you were to ride 20mph on a wheel I suspect you would feel safer with a helmet.

Don't take this as an insult, but I don't think you are in a position to offer advice on safety gear and techniques based on your current riding experience. There are many new people who jump into EUCs with both feet, buying performance wheels from the beginning. They may read your advice and mistakenly apply it to their riding.

I think EUCs are great fun and generally safe. But we can't fool ourselves into thinking that we are not always on the precipice of a potentially bad accident. We are. So I recommend stocking the odds in our favor by wearing quality safety gear. I myself don't wear safety gear 100 percent of the time, but when I go for dedicated rides I do. And I realize that there's room for improvement in the gear that I do wear, and I'm working on that. It's a process. 

[LanghamP]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

 

I think EUCs are great fun and generally safe. But we can't fool ourselves into thinking that we are not always on the precipice of a potentially bad accident. We are. So I recommend stocking the odds in our favor by wearing quality safety gear. I myself don't wear safety gear 100 percent of the time, but when I go for dedicated rides I do. And I realize that there's room for improvement in the gear that I do wear, and I'm working on that. It's a process. 

Hmm, have you ever recovered from your crashes? I don't mean just the physical but more of the mental aspect.

I ask because while I've cooly ninja-rolled or ran off all my crashes with minimal injuries, I now seem to have some fear that wasn't there before. I would characterize it more like constant low-level anxiety while riding my wheels. It encourages me to buy the Bell M3, by the way.

[WARPed1701D]

4 hours ago, Scatcat said:

Yes, me too.

If I get one, I'm going to make sure it is a MIPS-helmet, to minimise those rotational forces.

Be sure to get a downhill certified helmet or the chinbar is likely not tested and could be little more than eye candy. The Met Parachute and Giro Switchblade / Disciple are two such helmets with certification.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

Hmm, have you ever recovered from your crashes? I don't mean just the physical but more of the mental aspect.

I ask because while I've cooly ninja-rolled or ran off all my crashes with minimal injuries, I now seem to have some fear that wasn't there before. I would characterize it more like constant low-level anxiety while riding my wheels. It encourages me to buy the Bell M3, by the way.

As you describe it, no. I've had a couple of crashes which made me overly cautious for a couple of weeks until the memory fades. Yet after all of my combined experiences, I now ride with the ever present concern in the back of my mind. It don't think it detracts from my enjoyment though.

In the end I think this is beneficial because now I tend to ride and often think 5 seconds ahead in anticipation of what I would do if I crash at that instant. It does make me ride slower and more cautiously when riding on narrow paths adjacent to a busy street, etc.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Marty Backe

[Stan Onymous]

52 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

eye candy.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm eye candy  why isnt there such a thing? I mean besides eyesight and all. Cant they work out those kinks in the lab? Talk about low calorie! How many calories could you fit in a drop? Maybe its the tongue proximity, but still...

[kasenutty]

Ain't no running away at 30 kmh for me. I know, I've tried. 

[Scatcat]

13 hours ago, caelus said:

In first place, this kind of accident should be adressed. Sounds like the oscillation problem, some Gotway have.
I don't see, how a helmet should be beneficial in case of a faceplant if it is not a full face helmet.

Not the same thing.

An electric motor creates its own current, which means that as speed go up, torque go down. So the faster you ride, the less reserve torque you have left.

Going 20mph on a Gotway MS3 is usually not a problem whatsoever, the upper limit is somewhere in the vicinity of 28mph or so. But if you have a mishap in the form of a deep pot-hole or something like it. Something which require the wheel to suddenly exert twice or three times the force to compensate, then you may be out of luck. It would be like hitting a high curb at 20mph, which I wouldn't recommend.

Rather immediately you hit the maximum power available and when that is not sufficient the wheel cuts out. Either because a MOS blows, or because the circuit turns off to protect itself from burnout.

So now you're the moving part in a hinged system, with the EUC as a hinge on the ground. You'll be at 45° forward before you even have the time to think "Oh, s--t!". Then you'll be moving forward and down at about 8m/s. The whole evolution from cut-out to face-plant may be considerably less than a second, and in all probability not much more than that.

The mean reaction time of a reasonably sharp human is 0.2-0.3 seconds, with some athletes reaching as low as 0.06-0.09. In the latter case, like hockey and hand-ball goalies as well as elite table tennis players, the only reaction available with such short reactions are those ingrained in muscle memory.

Part of the second or less from cut out, you're not even aware that the fecal matter has hit the rotating impeller. So the whole evolution from your own perspective leaves a couple of tenths of a second from reaction speed limit to impact.

If you know you're at the limit, like when speed testing with full gear, or like EUC-extreme going fast in terrain. If the cut out is neither combined with and immediate stop or instant. AND if you're conditioned to react correctly by instinct alone, you may be able to semi-roll out of it.

As I mentioned, look at EUC-extreme rolling out of cut-outs. He's prepared, they're not instant, and he's experienced. Still, without his gear, he would be hurt.

In the case we're discussing the cut-out was unexpected and combined with an immediate stop. The chances of recovering or rolling out of it are pretty close to nil. So when active security fails, what's left is passive security - I.E whatever protection gear you're using.

Personally I use padding for elbows, shoulders, back and knees, as well as a close-fitting hard-shell commuter helmet and wrist guards. I don't have protection for the breast bone and ribs, or protection for the chin and face. I have a visor, but that is like using a sewing thread to tie down an ox.

Since I'm using the wheel for commuting, and go about 25-30 kilometers a day minimum, at speeds of 16-22mph, I feel my gear is the absolute minimum.

Actually, if anything, I'm looking to complete my gear. A viscoelastic polymer protected shirt for the ribs, breastbone, collarbone and so on might be next. And I'm looking around for a MIPS downhill-certified helmet with a chin-guard. The limit is practicability - it can't take ages to put on, and I don't want to look like robocop.

Gear must be easy to use, comfortable and good looking, or it will only be used when going extreme. But the really bad accidents will probably happen in everyday life - when you least expect it, are not at your sharpest, and have left the uncomfortable gear at home...

Addition (how a non full-face helmet can be beneficial): 

So you slam into the ground smashing your face in. However you have a helmet that becomes scrap plastic. Guess why it becomes scrap plastic? Well, the part of the skull that holds your person is still intact. Instead of a fracture in the frontal lobe, the helmet took the brunt of the impact.

So you get a concussion, and you need surgery to rebuild your face, but your brain still floats around with none but minor rattling.

Consider if the force that fractured the bone structure around the eye would have hit the forehead too. That would have put the theories about the skull being the last part of the "crumple zone" to the test. My guess is that the "crumple zone" would not have been enough.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Scatcat

[caelus]

44 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

Rather immediately you hit the maximum power available and when that is not sufficient the wheel cuts out. Either because a MOS blows, or because the circuit turns off to protect itself from burnout.

Is it?
One option would be to deliver the max current - until max temp is reached. And only then cut out. Thus, you would have more time.
I never had a high speed cut out, so I don't know how it is behaving then.

Regarding the fall: as you are not hinged to the wheel you move on linearly. That is why even at very high speeds you usually have enough time to react before you hit the ground. The vertical velossity is independent of the horizontal speed.

I would expect that in a frontal fall (faceplant) you are better off without helmet (if that doesn't have a full face guard).
 

56 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

As I mentioned, look at EUC-extreme rolling out of cut-outs. He's prepared, they're not instant, and he's experienced. Still, without his gear, he would be hurt.

Actually I don't think so. In offroad situations, you allways might hit some stone or a tree, thats where a helmet can come in benefical. Otherwise it is not! If there is no obstacle, you usually only have to deal with abrasion. And 30km/h is not fast by any means if you just land on the tarmac. But all that is very individual and depends on how you are used to falling from speed.

[Rocky Romero]

1 hour ago, Scatcat said:

 

Actually, if anything, I'm looking to complete my gear. A viscoelastic polymer protected shirt for the ribs, breastbone, collarbone and so on might be next. And I'm looking around for a MIPS downhill-certified helmet with a chin-guard. The limit is practicability - it can't take ages to put on, and I don't want to look like robocop.

Gear must be easy to use, comfortable and good looking, or it will only be used when going extreme. 

 

I prefer not to have the robocop look also.

Actually, I want the Clark Kent look (without the hat, and helmet instead), and underneath, I want the Superman protection.

Please keep posting on gear that works & fits the situation?

➰

[US69]

14 hours ago, caelus said:

I have an Airwheel X8 since 2 years and ride it on a daly basis, but it is rather slow. Bought a Gotway MCM V3 recently.

 

15 hours ago, caelus said:

But - hopefully - technology and our knowledge improve, so that cut-off crashes become very rare.  

[ironic mode on]

aaaah, an airwheel 12kmh expert trying to teach us from the benefits a helmet might bring....

Thank God you now bought the safest wheel on the planet for highspeed, the GW V3....absolutly unknown to such things like cut-outs because of

- batterie fail,  mosfet burn, shorted connector, burned wires,  blown dc converters etc etc

[ironic mode off]

 

Cut-outs dont go away from "knowledge"...they can only be prevent by redundancy, which no EUC has until today. 

The V3 is in fact known that all above mentioned failures can happen and that a good more often than on other wheels.

So perhaps you should just think even a bit more about the standpoints the other members gave.

It was said before...but a cut-out is in no way comparable to a skateboard fall...you will even not be able to get your arms up fast enough, but ok, some must experience that the hard way-on there own...

28 minutes ago, caelus said:

Is it?
One option would be to deliver the max current - until max temp is reached. And only then cut out. Thus, you would have more time.
 

 

Nothing to say anymore....hopefuly your Helmet/Fall experience is a bit better than the knowledge how our EUC's function..

Edited September 4, 2017 by KingSong69