US69 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Just now, Jason McNeil said: From what I understood, there's a unique cable interface, which GW refer to as a 'downloader', that communications with the board. yip...exclusive hardware...only for resellers... like i said somewhere else...french resellers (have) had this thing/updater at least last year, when Acm 67 volt rollout was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Jason McNeil said: From what I understood, there's a unique cable interface, which GW refer to as a 'downloader', that communications with the board. Oh man, that sucks. That means you get to open every unit to do this upgrade. Are you bringing a cot to sleep on, and plenty of coffee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: From what I understood, there's a unique cable interface, which GW refer to as a 'downloader', that communications with the board. Are they providing you with this interface cable? I am assuming that the interface cable must attach to one of the MB sockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I think @Marty Backe two events (melted cables shorting and then unstable firmware issue) should get some next generation updates. Axles need to be thicker to prevent breaks. Wire need to be thicker to handle currents during occasional steep and long grades to prevent melting failures. Additional temperature sensor to warn overheating at the cables and at the mosfets and at the motor. So warning can be sounded before it's too high. In realty cables would almost Ned to be same gage as the ones in the battery pack since those seam to hold well so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilmann Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 30 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: I think it might be possible, it will be a good opportunity to test out the newly applied FW. Dunno, whether that's doable with little effort: is it possible to preserve a positively faulty FW? Reason for asking: if we ever manage to refine a test stand to run a programmed sequence of standard tests, that would be a good check to see if it reliably uncovers this fault. We don't have a committed plan or schedule for that yet - so it doesn't warrant much effort or expense to save a copy. The vage idea: - construction of a test rig based on a treadmill, - adding a contraption allowing for automated control of the wheels lean angle to control speed (likely with a separate speed/rpm meter), - adding a processor controlled break to simulate inclines, - adding a reproducible way to simulate bumps (like the rolled newspaper suggested by @Hatchet, probably more sturdy), - adding a cheapo high-speed camera (like one of those CASIO Exilim point-n-shoots with 1000fps at lousy resolution), - adding an infrared thermometer, ideally with data out. It shouldn't be such a big deal to tinker such a setup and the two PID controllers to manage constant speed and constant load probably need little else but arduinos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieV Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 4 hours ago, Jason McNeil said: Late last night Linnea revealed more details into the nature of the fault: the Engineer(s) thought it would be a good idea to implement current limiting (exact code snippet please?!) in an attempt to mitigate the type MOSFET of burnouts that Marty recorded on his ACM during that steep hill climb only a couple days earlier—obviously not from that specific example, but from a handful of other Users. I don't think it's fair for Marty to be the unofficial test pilot for GW Wheels Heading out to LA on Thursday to get started on this project. When dealing product safety, monetary considerations are subordinated to reliability. So have they positively identified the error? Can they walk you through the steps necessary to replicate the problem? And after the fix has been applied can they demonstrate that when going through those same steps the problem goes away? Also, what assurances are there that implementing the fix doesn't introduce another compromise in safety? I think if Gotway can provide acceptable answers to these questions, it would be a decent first step to earning back the trust that's been lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noisycarlos Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 @Marty Backe Wrists are annoying to hurt, but glad you're mostly alright. A couple of years ago, there was a similar problem with Ninebots. As far as I know it didn't cause immediate crashes, but it was nicknamed the 'rodeo effect' or something like that because it didn't balance right and made you overcompensate back and forth, making it look like you are riding a mechanical bull or something. In Ninebot's case they fixed it with a firmware update, I know you can't do that with GWs at a consumer level, but maybe @Jason McNeil can do it at a dealer level? Otherwise, in theory at least, it could be fixed with a new board running fixed firmware (or even old one, before the problem arose). EDIT: After posting this I went back and realized you already addressed most of what I said here (I didn't read all 7 pages before posting), however, the Ninebot lessons remain :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 1 minute ago, RichieV said: So have they positively identified the error? Can they walk you through the steps necessary to replicate the problem? And after the fix has been applied can they demonstrate that when going through those same steps the problem goes away? Also, what assurances are there that implementing the fix doesn't introduce another compromise in safety? I think if Gotway can provide acceptable answers to these questions, it would be a decent first step to earning back the trust that's been lost. Although I admire your hopefulness in getting answers to your questions, the realities of EUC life in 2017 should allow you to predict the answers. These small companies are not NASA or any other fill-in-the-blank sophisticated companies. All we can hope is a reversion to the old, established firmware that has served them so well these last couple of years. I liken our EUC universe to automobiles in the early 20th century. Cars were for the adventurous who were willing to take on a certain level of risk, and to work on their own cars. I'm OK with that because I'm as excited to ride EUCs as the car enthusiasts were to operate a car in 1900. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 49 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I think the overheating wires is well known now, and from Jason wrote, the failed firmware patch was an attempt to address the excessive current. Gotway probably now realizes that the only true fix is bigger axles and bigger wire. Bears repeating, as it sums up the entire trouble short and well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 28 minutes ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: In realty cables would almost Ned to be same gage as the ones in the battery pack since those seam to hold well so far That's a really smart way of seeing it. Do you know which gauge the battery cables are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, Tilmann said: he vage idea: - construction of a test rig based on a treadmill, - adding a contraption allowing for automated control of the wheels lean angle to control speed (likely with a separate speed/rpm meter), - adding a processor controlled break to simulate inclines, - adding a reproducible way to simulate bumps (like the rolled newspaper suggested by @Hatchet, probably more sturdy), - adding a cheapo high-speed camera (like one of those CASIO Exilim point-n-shoots with 1000fps at lousy resolution), - adding an infrared thermometer, ideally with data out. I am going to attempt building a test rig. The treadmill arrives Monday which will be mounted between a set of parallel bars for me to hold onto as I plan to be the test dummy and ride the ACM. The ACM will be harnessed to the parallel bars in case I need to abort. My dual probe temperature data logger arrived today which will provide quantifiable temp readouts of both the motor wiring and the mosfets. I plan to embed one of the probes directly in the heat shrink surrounding the motor wires. I believe I can simulate bumps using a harness attached to my waist and the wheel. I plan to use the parallel bars to push off with my arms to create a bumping effect on the wheel. It looks like I may need to check on a high speed camera as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: I am going to attempt building a test rig. The treadmill arrives Monday which will be mounted between a set of parallel bars for me to hold onto as I plan to be the test dummy and ride the ACM. The ACM will be harnessed to the parallel bars in case I need to abort. My dual probe temperature data logger arrived today which will provide quantifiable temp readouts of both the motor wiring and the mosfets. I plan to embed one of the probes directly in the heat shrink surrounding the motor wires. I believe I can simulate bumps using a harness attached to my waist and the wheel. I plan to use the parallel bars to push off with my arms to create a bumping effect on the wheel. It looks like I may need to check on a high speed camera as well. Perhaps you could wear a heavy backpack to simulate a 220 pound rider if testing at your weight does not cause oscillation? Looking forward to the testing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieV Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 15 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Although I admire your hopefulness in getting answers to your questions, the realities of EUC life in 2017 should allow you to predict the answers. These small companies are not NASA or any other fill-in-the-blank sophisticated companies. All we can hope is a reversion to the old, established firmware that has served them so well these last couple of years. I liken our EUC universe to automobiles in the early 20th century. Cars were for the adventurous who were willing to take on a certain level of risk, and to work on their own cars. I'm OK with that because I'm as excited to ride EUCs as the car enthusiasts were to operate a car in 1900. I agree with you that there are risks we take and accept because EUCs are such a great thrill. Still, I don't think we should be test dummies for Gotway. If they don't know what caused the problem, they don't know how to fix the problem. It might be the case that rolling back the firmware is the solution, but they should be able to prove it from their own testing instead of letting us test it for them at risk of our lives and limbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electric_vehicle_lover Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 1 hour ago, KingSong69 said: yip...exclusive hardware...only for resellers... like i said somewhere else...french resellers (have) had this thing/updater at least last year, when Acm 67 volt rollout was I bet not. Can you guys please provide me the files they sent so I can look them and find it is proprietary?? Maybe I will be able to make a backup so later if something goes wrong we have a backup of such firmware... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, electric_vehicle_lover said: I bet not. Can you guys please provide me the files they sent so I can look them and find it is proprietary?? Maybe I will be able to make a backup so later if something goes wrong we have a backup of such firmware... Today isn't April 1st is it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electric_vehicle_lover Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Today isn't April 1st is it Didn't understand your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, electric_vehicle_lover said: Didn't understand your point. I think the point was that GW won't let anyone have either the files or the means to flash the firmware. If only trusted resellers have access and one of them leaks the file, there's going to be hell to pay. Their firmware is proprietary for sure, and they probably guard it like hawks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilmann Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 24 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: I am going to attempt building a test rig. The treadmill arrives Monday which will be mounted between a set of parallel bars for me to hold onto as I plan to be the test dummy and ride the ACM. The ACM will be harnessed to the parallel bars in case I need to abort. My dual probe temperature data logger arrived today which will provide quantifiable temp readouts of both the motor wiring and the mosfets. I plan to embed one of the probes directly in the heat shrink surrounding the motor wires. I believe I can simulate bumps using a harness attached to my waist and the wheel. I plan to use the parallel bars to push off with my arms to create a bumping effect on the wheel. It looks like I may need to check on a high speed camera as well. @Rehab1: great!!! @Chriull and others, who seem to have a solid understanding of the math and physics behind this: I am fairly sure, such a treadmill-based test rig will allow reproducible load stress tests (for the "melting wires" issue). But is such a setup promising for the "oscillation bug" testing? After all, in reality, that's a system composed from a fixed ground, an EUC, a free standing (and moving) human, the latter two moving anywhere at a speed between 10mph and 30mph. Here, some erratic controller behavior initiates the "oscillation". If, for example, the controller causes an erratic short acceleration, the wheel shoots forward a few inches (or maybe much less), the human rider does not, so he consequently tilts back the pedals somewhat. Apparently, this leads the controller to overcompensate by a sudden braking impulse. Again, the inertia of the rider prevents the 75kg standing on the wheel to reduce speed that fast and accordingly now the rider tilts the pedals forward - and so on with increasing amplitude until the riders feet and the pedals loose contact (as Marty so elegantly demonstrated). Now, would a test setup composed from a moving ground (treadmill belt), the same EUC and a stationary rider holding on to the treadmill handle for dear life (or 75kg of concrete simulating the rider's weight) react nearly in the same way? Or would we need huge flywheels on the treadmill belt to arrive at a similar inertia to get that resonance effect close to reality??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I hope I didn't aggravate people's fears when I suggested that a full teardown of Marty's new wheel was in order. I just don't know why a small bump would create the oscillation effect due to firmware. When you watch Marty's video, there is a slight dip into the gully section followed by a very small sudden rise where he goes over the lip of the ramp, and then the slight ascending part where the Gotway starts to loose it. That sudden series of dip in power requirement followed by a bump then a gradual rise seems to have triggered the instability. Wihy would reducing the current limiter create such a bizarre effect as that slight bump couldn't have spiked the current that high? I'm sure Jason will be testing out the firmware very rigorously before he opens up a bazillion wheels to load it up. Too bad they can't provide a special dealer app to load up the firmware through Bluetooth to make life easier and just have the wired STLinkV2 type interface for a backup in case the wireless update fails. @Tilmann We need this guy to do real world testing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 1 hour ago, noisycarlos said: A couple of years ago, there was a similar problem with Ninebots. As far as I know it didn't cause immediate crashes, but it was nicknamed the 'rodeo effect' or something like that because it didn't balance right and made you overcompensate back and forth, making it look like you are riding a mechanical bull or something. In Ninebot's case they fixed it with a firmware update, I know you can't do that with GWs at a consumer level, You are saying that Gotway does not do firmware updates through the app, like Ninebot used to do? And they have to send a cable interface to the dealer to reflash the board? That sounds like the dealership I worked at, some recalls had to be done at the dealership, where we had proprietary software to reflash the Electronic Control Module to upgrade to the newest version. Doing it that way, there was documentation that the recall had been performed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 17 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I hope I didn't aggravate people's fears when I suggested that a full teardown of Marty's new wheel was in order. Well, you are the inciter of people's worst fearsMaybe there's a spiders nest in there. (of wires of course) That robot would be perfect, wouldn't that be awesome to see riding an EUC! You are the only person who could fulfill that photoshop phantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 35 minutes ago, electric_vehicle_lover said: I bet not. Can you guys please provide me the files they sent so I can look them and find it is proprietary?? Maybe I will be able to make a backup so later if something goes wrong we have a backup of such firmware... think you got something wrong! not the sellers will be provided with the firmware! The trusted reseller gets the hardware-dongle for connecting to the board and the file! And is then able to flash the board of his customers one by one... For sure he will not set his reputation with gotway in the sand by providing the firmware file to others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: think you got something wrong! not the sellers will be provided with the firmware! The trusted reseller gets the hardware-dongle for connecting to the board and the file! And is then able to flash the board of his customers one by one... For sure he will not set his reputation with gotway in the sand by providing the firmware file to others... Ah, so this is the way Gotway starts trimming down the resellers and customers and getting rid of the bad ones. They kept trying and trying to make the fastest, most powerful wheels, and then made them more beautifully designed, and all they get is complaints. I still think they are in the top two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, steve454 said: Ah, so this is the way Gotway starts trimming down the resellers and getting rid of the bad ones. I would better guess that this is the only way to get this "faulty firmware problem" out of the world at the lowest cost! Otherwise they had to sent new boards to each of their sellers/endcustomers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yourtoys7 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Marty, Sorry to hear you took one, Im kind of lucky my msuper is earlier build 1300, I had no issues (hope I wont). If rocket wheel gains momentum I'll just ship. It bothers me and does more after reading how reckless Gotway is. If they don't change their practice, company will fail, just a matter of time. I really hope they will adress this issue fast and improve CQ. on their machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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