The Fat Unicyclist Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Marty Backe said: My hand won't be in any condition to try and real-world testing, regardless of how padded up I'll be. Let me know if you want me to do it... I am free (and local) on Sunday 9 July. I can bring over my motorcycle gear if you want me to - and you can follow in a car, videoing the whole thing - for everyone's amusement. At least that way I will get to try an MSuper - Oh and I would want to try your Monster too, before the MSuper (while I am still able to stand). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Rehab1 said: That would be great! I know how much you hate taking video but could you please record the process? Tell me more about your hand. I may try but I have a feeling Jason might think it's a bad idea considering how paranoid Gotway is regarding their 'state secrets'. My hand is slightly better, but I don't have the strength (without pain) to open an already opened bottle of mayonnaise. Lots of bruise bones and tenons in the palm area. The wrist and fingers seem OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I may try but I have a feeling Jason might think it's a bad idea considering how paranoid Gotway is regarding their 'state secrets'. My hand is slightly better, but I don't have the strength (without pain) to open an already opened bottle of mayonnaise. Lots of bruise bones and tenons in the palm area. The wrist and fingers seem OK. Take anti inflammatory meds such as Ibuprofen and ice your hand. Soft tissue injuries take time to heal. My back and chest are still hurting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Rehab1 said: Maybe we should be contacting @EUC Extremefor testing. I said that ages ago! I think he posted up a thread mentioning that he is available for testing, but I bet none of the companies took him up on it. Even having one of your wheels in his videos is likely to increase sales. If Gotway wants some thorough testing he's the guy best equipped to do so. He's already got the serious safety gear. @The Fat Unicyclist are you crazy? Being bronco bucked off at high speed is not fun! I guess though if the wheel passes the 240 lb rider test, Marty's confidence in it might be restored so it would be for a good cause. Geez you da man you da man to lay down your physical health for your fellow rider! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 41 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: @The Fat Unicyclist are you crazy? Being bronco bucked off at high speed is not fun! I guess though if the wheel passes the 240 lb rider test, Marty's confidence in it might be restored so it would be for a good cause. Geez you da man you da man to lay down your physical health for your fellow rider! Nah... Down here we are made of tougher stuff, that's all... Have you seen how we play rugby (DEF: Rugby, a sport like American Football, but without all the padding)? Besides, it seems I have a high tolerance for pain - when I broke my elbow, I went to the US for a couple of weeks and only sorted it when I got back to NZ - not that I was trying to be tough, it just didn't seem to hurt that much. I think it is the Kiwi way... I recall a friend of mine was helping with the demolition of a stand alone garage and one of the brick walls happened to fall on him. His reaction (once we uncovered him) was to say thanks and wander off for a bit (most likely for a private tear or two) and then everything was good again. It's just how we do things I think. One way to think of it is that we are the opposite of football (soccer) players... They seem quite delicate sometimes. Here in NZ, we are more like the guy in the Alien movie (the "Bishop's knife trick" scene), but without all of the girly screaming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puce Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 6 hours ago, Marty Backe said: I gingerly took my MSuper out on the street today, slowing going over bumps, falling off curbs, etc., in the hopes that I could get it to act up. I could not get myself to go much faster than 7-8mph. Nothing. My obvious concern is that after my board is re-flashed next week, how will I know that's good. I can tell you I'll be nervous as hell riding across a street like I did. That was not a fun experience. I did experience the issue on my way back after the crash and it was at walking speed. I suggest that you start a small acceleration just before the bump until it's behind you. I think putting slight pressure on the front of the wheel will increase the oscillation probability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelHensen Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Perhaps somebody, that can replicate the problem on low speeds, try the different ride modes. Perhaps it is only the hardest mode that creates the problem as suggested earlier.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 On 23.6.2017 at 11:38 PM, Rehab1 said: I am going to attempt building a test rig. The treadmill arrives Monday which will be mounted between a set of parallel bars for me to hold onto as I plan to be the test dummy and ride the ACM. The ACM will be harnessed to the parallel bars in case I need to abort. Please be very carefull trying this! The wheels are quite powerfull by now and i don't think one would enjoy to mess with an ~20kg thing trying to get off the treadmill with ~30km/h... They could be by now almost more or less powerwise comparable to the small motorcycle classes (with 50km/h limit and/or the ones with 50 ccm limit....) and i woul never try one of these on a treadmill just harnessed to some "tin"-bars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 50 minutes ago, Chriull said: Please be very carefull trying this! The wheels are quite powerfull by now and i don't think one would enjoy to mess with an ~20kg thing trying to get off the treadmill with ~30km/h... They could be by now almost more or less powerwise comparable to the small motorcycle classes (with 50km/h limit and/or the ones with 50 ccm limit....) and i woul never try one of these on a treadmill just harnessed to some "tin"-bars... Many thanks for your concerns! Trust me this is not a death wish. The harness apparatus that will protecting me will be attached to a large eye bolt mounted in the ceiling above the parallel bars and is designed to hold over 1000 lbs. The 10 foot parallel bar structure is permanently mounted into concrete and rated over 500 pounds. The wheel itself will have a dog cage over it and separately harnessed. I cannot comment on the entire design until I have the treadmill in hand tomorrow. Upon examination if the treadmill appears attenuated in anyway and deemed inadequate for the test rig then a custom treadmill will need to be designed. I am hoping some of my biomechanical and helicopter building experience will keep me safe but after last weekend's ominous, uncontrollable events I suppose anything could happen. That is the purpose of prayers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 14 hours ago, MichaelHensen said: Perhaps somebody, that can replicate the problem on low speeds, try the different ride modes. Perhaps it is only the hardest mode that creates the problem as suggested earlier.. No matter what I do I cannot get any symptoms at low speed. I'm not prepared right now to try high speeds. I sure wish there was a low speed scenario that would reliably cause this to repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchet Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 What happens if you pick up the wheel and give it a good shake before it spins to max and cuts out? Maybe you can get it to oscillate then in your hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 37 minutes ago, Hatchet said: What happens if you pick up the wheel and give it a good shake before it spins to max and cuts out? Maybe you can get it to oscillate then in your hand. I think all the evidence points to a power surge that the new firmware does not allow, and shuts down. Picking up the 50+ pound MSuper and shaking it while it's spinning up is not my idea of a fun afternoon. I'll just wait for the new firmware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: No matter what I do I cannot get any symptoms at low speed. I'm not prepared right now to try high speeds. I sure wish there was a low speed scenario that would reliably cause this to repeat. Find a long patch of fine sand, like ride from a sidewalk into soft sand, and see if the wheel does the rodeo thing. If it is the beach, even if you get thrown off, it would be softer than concrete. I just remembered that video of you riding on the beach with the old MSuper that I wanted to buy. It has to be dry sand though, so it will bog down the wheel. About one or two inches deep, not so deep that it burns the board. When I hit a patch of sand on the sidewalk it slowed the Ninebot so quickly that it couldn't keep me upright and I flew off. I guess the transition was too quick and couldn't be compensated for fast enough. Happened in a split second. Probably sudden transitions happen so fast that they can't be overcome. Luckily only going about 7-8 mph, and I had palm protectors and wrist guards, wish I was wearing knee protectors. The blue jeans gave me a burn on one knee. My wrists were fine, but the palm protector on the left glove has some serious gouges in the plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchet Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: I think all the evidence points to a power surge that the new firmware does not allow, and shuts down. Picking up the 50+ pound MSuper and shaking it while it's spinning up is not my idea of a fun afternoon. I'll just wait for the new firmware. But riding it and trying crash again is? ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: I think all the evidence points to a power surge that the new firmware does not allow, and shuts down. Nah. That does not explain the oscillation. Also, I don't expect even the Gotway engineers to be that stupid to simply shut down the wheel at some random current. I think they did something to deal with currents (as they said) and somehow messed up the balance algorithm big time. A bump plus unlucky circumstances to start the situation, and the algorithm will go crazy until the wheel gives up and shuts down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodman Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 With all the problems I have been having with my new Inmotion V8, I took my MSuper out for a long ride yesterday just over 30 kms. Mine was produced in April so I guess I am pretty safe in regards to been thrown off, or worry about having my wires burn unless I ride it up a mountain I am lucky in the sense Australia is very flat. With all the problems lately with Gotways I must admit I felt nervous for the first time since getting my Msuper going over any bumps. But after riding it for 15 minutes all the above is almost forgotten and man can I say just how good it feels, the Msuper is such a solid comfortable beast I truly hope Gotway gets their shit together and fix this for everyone. Start by restoring some faith with all the people who have bought one of these bad wheels come onto this boards and make an announcement so everyone who has been affect is able to reach out and get help and support, sure it might cost you a little money but the rewards will be 10 fold once you restore the faith. I hate to see the potential of this wheel and the Gotway company just go to waste, you have a great product with a few issues don't be afraid to let people know. Fix them quick and fix them good help the people who have bought, keep all dealers informed and stop hiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 26, 2017 Author Share Posted June 26, 2017 5 minutes ago, Goodman said: With all the problems I have been having with my new Inmotion V8, I took my MSuper out for a long ride yesterday just over 30 kms. Mine was produced in April so I guess I am pretty safe in regards to been thrown off, or worry about having my wires burn unless I ride it up a mountain I am lucky in the sense Australia is very flat. With all the problems lately with Gotways I must admit I felt nervous for the first time since getting my Msuper going over any bumps. But after riding it for 15 minutes all the above is almost forgotten and man can I say just how good it feels, the Msuper is such a solid comfortable beast I truly hope Gotway gets their shit together and fix this for everyone. Start by restoring some faith with all the people who have bought one of these bad wheels come onto this boards and make an announcement so everyone who has been affect is able to reach out and get help and support, sure it might cost you a little money but the rewards will be 10 fold once you restore the faith. I hate to see the potential of this wheel and the Gotway company just go to waste, you have a great product with a few issues don't be afraid to let people know. Fix them quick and fix them good help the people who have bought, keep all dealers informed and stop hiding. Nice to read. I've been enjoying my MSuper in what I should call slo-mo mode (8mph max). I really do enjoy the feel of the ride of this machine. Can't wait to have it fully functioning again in the next week or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 26, 2017 Author Share Posted June 26, 2017 46 minutes ago, Hatchet said: But riding it and trying crash again is? ok. Well, a oscillating shutdown at 11km/h is not exactly a crash. Holding a 50 pound wheel that's spinning up to 60kp/h and shaking it is a little bit scary. Either way I'm done now. Just going to wait to get it re-flashed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpong Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Recently made a EUC purchase - so recently I haven't even received it yet. Looked far and wide. Looked at the landscape and squinted to help see it correctly. Decided on KingSong because of just this thing, which is readily see-able. Gotway, not now, maybe some day, but not now. For heaven's sake, not now. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingfelder Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 21 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: It's just how we do things I think. One way to think of it is that we are the opposite of football (soccer) players... They seem quite delicate sometimes. I love soccer, but the way players leap on the ground and fake injuries to try to get a foul is completely disgraceful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Check out this video. There is a similar oscillation after the rider drops down quite a distance over some stairs. It looks very similar to the behavior that Marty's wheel exhibited at the time of this fall. The V8 gets some air time so likely is trying to find it's balance point after it lands. I don't know the exact workings of the firmware, but I wonder if the Gotway firmware glitches somehow dependent on riding above a certain speed and sudden changes in current to create the same oscillation effect where it is trying to regain its balance. EDIT: I wonder whether with "hard" mode that the wheel keeps a narrower defined tolerance in which it maintains balance. In the softer modes it allows more tipping of the pedals so perhaps a wider variance is accepted or perhaps a delayed response is used. If that balance reference value gets lost due to a bump and the controller loses the centre point somehow, maybe it goes into a cycle mode that varies the pitch back and forth trying to locate the balance point. While in motion this is enough to settle the rider leading to a crash. I don't think it is a cutoff problem, but an instability where the wheel is searching for balance by rocking back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingfelder Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Cool, very natural-looking riding! When I first started finding EUC riding vids, I saw lots of people jumping and many going down stairs. i thought that was pretty doable, the norm, until people here told me I'd better forget it; the axles just won't take it for long. Bummer, because that stuff looks both useful and fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 26, 2017 Author Share Posted June 26, 2017 13 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Check out this video. There is a similar oscillation after the rider drops down quite a distance over some stairs. It looks very similar to the behavior that Marty's wheel exhibited at the time of this fall. The V8 gets some air time so likely is trying to find it's balance point after it lands. I don't know the exact workings of the firmware, but I wonder if the Gotway firmware glitches somehow dependent on riding above a certain speed and sudden changes in current to create the same oscillation effect where it is trying to regain its balance. EDIT: I wonder whether with "hard" mode that the wheel keeps a narrower defined tolerance in which it maintains balance. In the softer modes it allows more tipping of the pedals so perhaps a wider variance is accepted or perhaps a delayed response is used. If that balance reference value gets lost due to a bump and the controller loses the centre point somehow, maybe it goes into a cycle mode that varies the pitch back and forth trying to locate the balance point. While in motion this is enough to settle the rider leading to a crash. Love that video. I'm beginning to think the back-and-forth wobble is common, but cutout is an added bonus that we can life without. That guy has some impression breaking and reversing maneuvers - the power surge going on in that wheel must be through the roof. I need to work on my stretching so that I too can ride one legged while holding my other leg above my head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 26, 2017 Author Share Posted June 26, 2017 4 minutes ago, Dingfelder said: Cool, very natural-looking riding! When I first started finding EUC riding vids, I saw lots of people jumping and many going down stairs. i thought that was pretty doable, the norm, until people here told me I'd better forget it; the axles just won't take it for long. Bummer, because that stuff looks both useful and fun. Yeah, I can do it but I really try and avoid those unnecessary stresses on the wheel. Seems common sense to me that it can't be the best thing for the wheel, especially when you've paid $2k for a it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 Yeah that guy's like some kinda Zen Yoga master rider. (BTW that's how I ride all the time ) Notice no helmet, wrist guards, or any protection whatsoever. I'm sure Jason is thrilled that some of his customers are putting their wheels through the torture test. He's probably thinking please please please let the wheel survive until the warranty runs out... Did yours cutout as well? I thought maybe it was just the oscillations that threw you off? Hopefully with future models they will make heavier duty axles (larger diameter) and indestructible pedals so you can do almost anything with them. There's plenty of space for larger bearings and axles. They just need to take that redesign step and evolve the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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