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WARPed1701D

V5F+ or V8. Help me decide.

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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 6:30 PM, steve454 said:

As far as the pedals dipping, my ninebot does that also, the slower and sharper the turn, the more noticeable.  I don't notice it going around shallow curves only low speed sharp turns.  Saw your video, you rode a long way and had the turn, but maybe slowed down to step off speed just before you headed back.  You can ride pretty good already, especially filming at the same time.:o  But to get back on topic, try turning the wheel around and ride it that way once of twice, before you set it back to zero.  See how it feels in a straight line,  if you don't like it just turn the wheel around again, it's kind of fun to see what a difference it can be.  It doesn't seem to matter which way the ninebot is facing when I ride, but right now the pedals are not level, and even doing the app calibration, it doesn't feel level so I ride it turned around backwards with the power button in back.  Might be my shoes are sloped, though.:mellow:

I agree that the amount of tilt encountered varies based on the type turn. I'm still trying to work out what is the worst type. I don't really like the sensation though and would prefer to her rid of it somehow.

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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 7:49 PM, Dingfelder said:

"Well, I could do without the house-swallowing sinkholes, but there's just not enough alligators and hurricanes around Essex for my liking!"

Ha!  You can keep all of those things! I wouldn't move back to Essex unless I could go rural in the north of the county, but many other places in the UK look appealing right now. It's a shame the UK government has made it near impossible for me to get a Visa for my US wife. Sucks to not be able to come home for more than a vacation.

Edited by WARPed1701D

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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 1:15 AM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Wow you are doing great!  :popcorn:  I would never imagine recording on a phone at your stage of learning.  It's great!  Yeah there is a little lean of the pedal closer to the ground, but have no fear with your InMotion you are way off the ground so it will not grind.  Just keep leaning forwards and to the side into the turn to avoid stalling out mid-turn.  I like to imagine a square around me.  When I turn I lean towards the front right or left corner with my body as if my body is a large joystick.

There are several ways to turn.  One is the lean I mentioned, two is just turning at your waist in the direction you want, third is applying more weight to one foot and lifting up slightly on the other foot (bend knee up), fourth is swivel twist pressure at the lower legs.

 I've been trying different techniques today but sometimes in the effort to just stay on I don't realize what body gymnastics resulted in success. Over analysing in advance is my greatest enemy though. I'll keep trying each of the suggested methods. I think each is particularly suited to a specific type of situation. Tight turn. Wide turn. Etc.

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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 2:00 AM, KingSong69 said:

Some Euc's have this behaviour, that in the curves the pedals are dipping forward....so no, you are not just imagining this!

On KS and GW you can get this effect away, or reduce it to a minumum, by doing a very proper calibration.

On the calibration take attention that your wheel is perfectly horizontal AND vertical aligned.

 Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to try this tomorrow. The dipping is very off putting. If I can get rid of it with a calibration I'd be very happy.

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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 4:50 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Not sure we mean the same thing. The pedals suddenly dipping forward in curves is definitely happening in reality, and not just perceptional or due to riding style. You can even feel it after curves, when the pedal slowly goes horizontal again (which you can speed up by doing a quick brake+accelerate). If that's supposed a feature, it's the most counterproductive feature ever. If it's just a bug like on the Gotways (as it goes away after a proper calibration, can't be intentional) it's an extremely annoying one.

Not sure if the V8/Inmotions have other, unrelated pedal behavior.

 This is the exact behavior. Even the slow recovery after the turn. VERY counterproductive.

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Getting there!  It looks like you're boldly going where no man on one wheel has gone before!

In the last video, just stay on and don't bail.   It looks like you were doing okay.  Maybe lean more forwards and to the left if it is slowing down too much for you.  When turning I find it is natural to slow down, and you have to fight that urge as the slower you go the less stable you are. Don't go turning sharp at high speed of course, but remember to maintain velocity.  Are you doing the joystick forward/left lean?  Try doing that and add in the turn left at the waist so your upper body is turned in the direction you want.

Pedal dip is pretty normal.  If you do it at quite a tilt you can skim the front outer corners on the Ninebot.  That's why I have skim pads there to protect the powder coat finish.  Your wheel has much greater clearance so pedal scrape is more unlikely.  I haven't skimmed my toes ever so you should be fine.  It might feel weird, but just ride through it with a little more speed.  Slow down if you need to,  but don't stall out.

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

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Day 5 was actually yesterday but I was really busy and only got about 25 minutes in as it was getting dark. I'm concentrating on tighter turning and corners as stright line running and basic steering appears to be grasped now. But for tighter corning progress appears to have slowed. I do better when I am turning around an object rather than just doing a random U turn in the street so there is a mental component to this holding me back. I still need to recallibrate the wheel to see if I can get rid of the pesky downward pedal tilt that continues to put me off balance. I feel like I'm leaning way back to stay upright as I do tight turns yet still picking up speed. I'm sure it is not my imagination. I remember people saying the high pedals on the V5 and V8 can disadvantage a learner when turning because of the higher position. I'll keep at it tonight. I'm very lucky to have a parking lot at my apartments that is perfect for learning the EUC.

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Do the calibration now, and make sure the wheel is not tilted sideways while you do it. This annoying pedal dipping is exactly what stopped me from doing "free" (no obstacle) turns.

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25 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Do the calibration now, and make sure the wheel is not tilted sideways while you do it. This annoying pedal dipping is exactly what stopped me from doing "free" (no obstacle) turns.

I'll do a calibration before going out tonight and will report back.

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Coolio! No idea if the pedal dipping on Inmotions is intentional or a bug (presumably) like on the Gotways/Kingsongs. Don't even know if you can recalibrate them, but I guess you can;)

edit: No idea how hard it is to recalibrate, but if it's confusing like on GWs, you can do a really crazy recalibration (with insane pedal level) to confirm the method works.

Edited by meepmeepmayer

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31 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Coolio! No idea if the pedal dipping on Inmotions is intentional or a bug (presumably) like on the Gotways/Kingsongs. Don't even know if you can recalibrate them, but I guess you can;)

edit: No idea how hard it is to recalibrate, but if it's confusing like on GWs, you can do a really crazy recalibration (with insane pedal level) to confirm the method works.

You can recalibrate them. I've just been scouring the Inmotion forum for details as I recalled form earlier investigation before I ordered that there was a trick to it. You have to disable the motor with the kill switch (and maybe lean the wheel back onto the fender rest, not sure about this step) and then enter the "Car turning and forward calibration" menu otherwise you get an unhelpful error that doesn't point you in the right direction to correct your mistake. :furious:

This info was buried in several other posts so I may repost instructions when I know what I am doing.

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I went through the same issue with calibration when I got my V8.  I believe I figured it out.  What I did was set the pedal angle in the app to 0.0.  I then used an actual level which I set on the pedals and pressed the handle button while physically rotating the wheel to level and then pressed the correction button in the app.  

This seemed to cause the wheel to sit level.  I then adjusted the angle in the app to basically match the neutral position on my ninebot one since thats what I'm used to.  

Seemed to work for me because the wheel felt very odd and difficult to ride at first.  After going through the above steps, it feels great now.

Edited by Tjtripp

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7 minutes ago, Tjtripp said:

I went through the same issue with calibration when I got my V8.  I believe I figured it out.  What I did was set the pedal angle in the app to 0.0.  I then used an actual level which I set on the pedals and pressed the handle button while physically rotating the wheel to level and then pressed the correction button in the app.  

This seemed to cause the wheel to sit level.  I then adjusted the angle in the app to basically match the neutral position on my ninebot one since thats what I'm used to.  

Seemed to work for me because the wheel felt very odd and difficult to ride at first.  After going through the above steps, it feels great now.

 Thanks! Ireally appreciate the input here. So you are saying the wheel should not be rested back on the fender during the callibration (the step I questioned above). Maybe this is just for firmware. I did wonder how it was meant to calibrate if it was tilted back but then thought that maybe it expected to be in the tipped back position and compensated the callibration accordingly. They really need to sort their instructions out.

Sepcifically did you find that before callibration the pedals tipped forward during turning? Was it resolved after?

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And I thought Inmotion were a bit more professional in their doings. But apparently it's a requirement that only arcane knowledge and possibly some chicken/goat/newborn sacrifices during a full moon plus a month of fasting must be required for a successful calibration, from all manufacturers.

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5 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

And I thought Inmotion were a bit more professional in their doings. But apparently it's a requirement that only arcane knowledge and possibly some chicken/goat/newborn sacrifices during a full moon plus a month of fasting must be required for a successful calibration, from all manufacturers.

I'm short on chickens, goats, and newborns...but I have a dog. Maybe that will do. Wife would kill me though. I'd be better of living with the downward tilt.

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The dog still lives...;) (OK, she was never at risk)

I managed to complete the calibration last night. I confirmed the pedal adjustment was still set to 0 degrees (it was) and then put a spirit level on the pedal (a proper one...not a phone app). It would seem that the wheel was calibrated with a forward/downward/negative tilt as the bubble was hard up the back and of the level. If I had thought I would have adjusted the pedal tilt to measure how far I had to adjust it to center the bubble...but I didn't :facepalm:. To calibrate I re-enabled the kill button (disabled right now due to tether use while learning), pressed it to deactivate the self balancing, leveled the wheel (forward/back tilt) according to the spirit level and eyed the left right tilt to upright the best I could. In the app I then hit the "CAR Turning and Forward Calibration" option found in the "SCV Correction" menu of the Inmotion app. Normally this gives me the unhelpful "connection failed" error. This time with the kill button pressed I got the almost as unhelpful "connection succeeded" message. I assume this means it calibrated OK. I then let go of the kill switch.

After self balance reengaged the spirit bubble remained centered. I adjusted the manual pedal tilt adjustment fore and aft a few times and while it didn't always return to perfect center it was close at 0 degrees. I left it at 0 degree adjustment and went out to test.

Did it get rid of the downward tilt on tight cornering. No. Has it reduced the downward tilt on tight cornering. Maybe. I'll admit I'm too new at this to have an intimate understanding of the feel of my wheel but I do think there is an improvement.

Considering that up until this point what I thought was a 0 degree flat pedal was actually a few degrees forward it is not a surprise that any further forward tilt while turning made me feel like I was being tipped off.

Right now I'm assuming the forward/downward tilt on turn is a (highly misguided) feature. It could be implemented in several ways. It either tilts a varying amount based on your turn speed or just tilts to a preset amount regardless. It may also determine how far to tilt based on your current default pedal angle. It may tilt more degrees forward in a turn if you ride with the pedal tilted back a few degrees normally. Likewise it may tilt less of you already have a forward tilt set. I intend to experiment with this by manually adjusting pedal tilt to see what if does. I may also calibrate some error into the sensor (a slight backward pedal tilt at measured 0 degree calibration) to see if I can alleviate the issue. I also intend to try a calibration with the wheel resting back on the fender, just to see what happens. I'll report back.

Day 6 Update

So after all that what was my progress. Well again I concentrated on tighter turns. The downward tilt on turning was still there although maybe less pronounced but my biggest discovery/confirmation from my efforts is that without doubt there a huge "mental" component to turns that is holding me back. If I have something to go around then I can execute very tight (4-5") 360 degree - 720 degree turns repeatedly but if there is nothing to go around (just a U turn in the street) I wobble, my speed fluctuates and I either fall off or complete a very unstable turn. This obstacle to go around could be as simple as a drain grate in the middle of the parking lot. At one point I was having trouble turning at a dead end as there was nothing there to reference. I kept falling off. Then I spied some cracks in the ground that made a square about 3 feet wide. As soon as I focused on that as something to go around I cleared it every time. Totally weird. I'll keep working on it,

Edited by WARPed1701D

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3 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

If I have something to go around then I can execute very tight (4-5") 360 degree - 720 degree turns repeatedly but if there is nothing to go around (just a U turn in the street) I wobble, my speed fluctuates and I either fall off or complete a very unstable turn.

This seams to happen to some newbie's....My gilrfriend is also in the very beginning of driving, and when there are some obstacles to go around, she takes them like nothing! Really perfect gliding around...

As soon as it comes to doing a U-turn on a street...she just falls of and starts to wobble, as she is not doing the turn fluidly..but trying it in a "step by step" maner...

And that doesn't work :-) But thats all just time and experience! For some more time, for some less....In the end it will work :-)

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So in relation to this car body calibration thing - I finally did it the other day and unless it's placebo (a very real possibility), I've noticed a couple of improvements:

1) The wheel seems faster. it's obviously not ACTUALLY faster, but I seem to be able to get nearer to that 25kph before the warning lady/tiltback comes on.

2) Sometimes when I went over little bumps, I'd get the warning-lady very briefly initiate. This doesn't seem to happen anymore.

Again....this could all be placebo, but I'm adding doing it now to my usual 'pre-flight' checks before every time I ride....(along with tire re-pump, wheel clean and diagnosis check). I've bought a level of Amazon (picture below) which is only a liquid one, but I think that's good enough. I know you can get a level app, but my phone has buttons on both sides so I can't rest it evenly. I pull the trigger and rest it on the front fender to do it (does it make any difference if front or back?).

 

 

20170727_145823.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Paddylaz said:

1) The wheel seems faster. it's obviously not ACTUALLY faster, but I seem to be able to get nearer to that 25kph before the warning lady/tiltback comes on.

I'm adding doing it now to my usual 'pre-flight' checks before every time I ride.

I pull the trigger and rest it on the front fender to do it (does it make any difference if front or back?).

On my ride after doing calibration I almost immediatly hit tiltback at my currently lowered 20kph learning limit. This was the first time that had happened. I put it down to increasing confidence but as mine was tilting forward at 0 degrees before calibration it is possible that having a proper level pedal allowed me to push harder to accelerate.

Are you just checking the pedal is level before each ride or performing a full calibration before each ride? Over the next week or so I intend to check the level before each ride to see if it loses accuracy but I'm not recallibrating if I don't have to. If it keeps the pedal level then I may just perform a check once a month or after a fall/impact.

I didn't rest my V8 on the fender at all during calibration and I intend to see if calibration actually works if I do so with it on the fender. I suspect resting on the fender is only a firmware thing as I understand that can take some time to do. I just pressed the kill button then eyed the wheel to get left/right tilt upright and used the level on the pedal to get forward/back tilt level. Then I hit the callibration button in the app.

Keep me updated on your methods and findings. I intend to put a dedicated post in the Inmotin forum showing how to do this as current info appears buried in the V8 and V5 review threads.

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1 hour ago, WARPed1701D said:

On my ride after doing calibration I almost immediatly hit tiltback at my currently lowered 20kph learning limit. This was the first time that had happened. I put it down to increasing confidence but as mine was tilting forward at 0 degrees before calibration it is possible that having a proper level pedal allowed me to push harder to accelerate.

Are you just checking the pedal is level before each ride or performing a full calibration before each ride? Over the next week or so I intend to check the level before each ride to see if it loses accuracy but I'm not recallibrating if I don't have to. If it keeps the pedal level then I may just perform a check once a month or after a fall/impact.

I didn't rest my V8 on the fender at all during calibration and I intend to see if calibration actually works if I do so with it on the fender. I suspect resting on the fender is only a firmware thing as I understand that can take some time to do. I just pressed the kill button then eyed the wheel to get left/right tilt upright and used the level on the pedal to get forward/back tilt level. Then I hit the callibration button in the app.

Keep me updated on your methods and findings. I intend to put a dedicated post in the Inmotin forum showing how to do this as current info appears buried in the V8 and V5 review threads.

Basically i have a big wooden box with a completely flat top surface. I place it on my carpeted floor and then put the Level on the box and move the box until i find an area of my room which shows on the level to be perfectly flat/horizontal. I then place the wheel on the box right next to the level, pull the trigger and tilt it forward so its resting on its front spine. Then i hit the car calibration button. I wish i knew for sure if this is actually doing anything or if im doing it right but certainly no disasters yet.

Pedal wise, i always have it on -3. Seems to be perfect for me. 

Ps. Just my opinion, but if i were you id remove any and all speed restrictions on your wheel. Even for an experienced rider any sort of sudden tiltback can be unnerving....

Edited by Paddylaz

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49 minutes ago, Paddylaz said:

Ps. Just my opinion, but if i were you id remove any and all speed restrictions on your wheel. Even for an experienced rider any sort of sudden tiltback can be unnerving....

A sudden tilt-back at the highest speed the wheel can go is exceptionally dangerous especially if you've never experienced it.

May I suggest, instead, setting the tilt-back to very very low, like 3-4 mph, and experiment with it until you become familiar with the odd and different behavior of your new wheel.

Be advised the tilt-back is there to save you. It's a last-gasp attempt to not have you crash. Consider, for example, being chased by a dog. You'd panic and blast through that tilt-back, so now you'd fall and get mauled by the dog. 

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