The Gotway Gods Destroyed My ACM

[Dingfelder]

11 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Do smaller wheels make better climbers on steep hills?

I ask because I feel my KS14C can climb much steeper hills than my MSuper. The MSuper can climb less steep hills much faster but the KS14C seems to easily climb hills I can barely walk up.

I think people are saying technically yes, because more torque can be supplied.   Given different size wheels with the same amount of power and the same weight load.

But with a heavier weight load, perhaps the smaller motors of a 14-incher might be overwhelmed by something a bigger wheel with a bigger motor might handle well.  The extra torque per revolution not being enough to compensate for simply having a weaker motor.

That's what I gathered from my reading and what I could understand of people's advice here and elsewhere,  and it drove my decision to buy a bigger, more powerful wheel.

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

4 hours ago, alfu said:

Marty's video shows the controller traction wires to be 14AWG. A larger wire, 12AWG, is rated at 15A for residential construction. The motor traction wires are even narrower guage, probably around 16AWG. It is inexcusable for a premium model EUC to have the same gauge traction wires as an entry-level 14" Step & Roll or Airwheel. As far as I can tell from Marty's video, his failure was due to these smaller wires fusing together from getting overheated.

Heavier traction wires (they should be 10AWG, finely stranded, like litz wire, for flexibility, with silicone insulation) and larger diameter axle tubes would not materially increase the cost of an EUC, especially a premium model. Also, the connectors from the controller to the motor should be at least the grade of an XT-60, not those crappy things that are used for trailer tail-lights. Gotway should be ashamed of themselves!

(Although King Song probably uses the same wiring gauges and connectors ...)

12 gage is rated for 20 amps,not 15 amps.14 is rated for 15 amps. @Marty Backe's failure is the first time I have actually seen the wires melt the insulation on the wires coming from the control board not due to a connector failure/fault.The wires on the motor side have a higher heat rated insulation and have never been reported to have melted the insulation to the best of my knowledge.I'm going to replace the board side motor wires on my ACM to circumvent any possible "BrokeBacke" experiences in the future.I don't think that it is fair to blame Gotway for all of these failures.After all,extreme hill riding is not exactly how EUC's are designed to be used.Those of us who choose to use them in extreme or cutting edge ways know this as does @Marty Backe.

[Dingfelder]

I do think they are to blame.  Plenty of people live in hilly areas.  Some people live in whole hilly countries!

Rutty trails I can see ... there is a difference between street bikes and offroad bikes, after all.  And cars and motorcycles, so ...

But I do believe people should be able to ride up hills on a EUC.

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

29 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

I do think they are to blame.  Plenty of people live in hilly areas.  Some people live in whole hilly countries!

Rutty trails I can see ... there is a difference between street bikes and offroad bikes, after all.  And cars and motorcycles, so ...

But I do believe people should be able to ride up hills on a EUC.

Because you said so?  Lol. Funny!

the machines are cool. Let's not make them what they are not. They don't make a car that gives you 40mpg fits 8 people but also shrinks down o the size of abVW Beattle. Then can go rock crawling and traverse rivers 10 feet deep. 

Let not get carried away. The EUC's are great road machines. And who ever started the rumor that it can go everywhere and do all sorts of tricks is just high on something. 

For the most part all wheel are rated at 20deg grade max with a 100kg rider. And some even lighter. All these nonsense wears me out. Why can you people stick to the facts!

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

1 hour ago, jrkline said:

12 gage is rated for 20 amps,not 15 amps.14 is rated for 15 amps. @Marty Backe's failure is the first time I have actually seen the wires melt the insulation on the wires coming from the control board not due to a connector failure/fault.The wires on the motor side have a higher heat rated insulation and have never been reported to have melted the insulation to the best of my knowledge.I'm going to replace the board side motor wires on my ACM to circumvent any possible "BrokeBacke" experiences in the future.I don't think that it is fair to blame Gotway for all of these failures.After all,extreme hill riding is not exactly how EUC's are designed to be used.Those of us who choose to use them in extreme or cutting edge ways know this as does @Marty Backe.

The board side cables are actually 12gauge already and I have not seen them fail. The failure point it at the solder joint and motor section 14gauge. Lots of heat there. Bullet connectors get hot enough to melt the solder and now melting the plastic jacket and the motor insulation.  That is way past 300c.

[Dingfelder]

1 hour ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

Because you said so?  Lol. Funny!

the machines are cool. Let's not make them what they are not. They don't make a car that gives you 40mpg fits 8 people but also shrinks down o the size of abVW Beattle. Then can go rock crawling and traverse rivers 10 feet deep. 

Let not get carried away. The EUC's are great road machines. And who ever started the rumor that it can go everywhere and do all sorts of tricks is just high on something. 

For the most part all wheel are rated at 20deg grade max with a 100kg rider. And some even lighter. All these nonsense wears me out. Why can you people stick to the facts!

You seem to be ignoring a few realities and getting an attitude about it in the process.

1.  One of them is that people who do tricks are high.  To judge by the videos, which you have access to as well as anyone else, plenty of people do tricks.  So that was just weird.

2.  And as I said, plenty of people live where there are hills.  This is reality and welcome to it.  

3.  Regarding weight, a check of the charts at Jason's site, which I've linked to on this forum several times and which you can just go look up yourself, does list machines capable of carrying riders over 100 kg.  They are not obscure machines nobody has ever heard of and jason is easily among the best known sellers among the people who frequent this site.  You don't even seem to be disagreeing with me here, so now I'm really confused.  Where are the missing facts? 

4.  In America, there is sometimes explicitly in the law and sometimes implicitly a warrant of merchantability.  If I use something for its ordinarily foreseeable uses and it doesn't do those things, there can be legal recourse.  As there should be.  Going up hills is an ordinary use that ordinary people would expect of a vehicle of any kind.  A possible, but not always successful, way to get around the responsibility of delivering what purchasers can reasonable expect is to advise them in advance of an item's limitations.  For instance, a pill to get rid of worms that is not safe for dogs under  a certain weight can be marketed only for dogs at a safe weight, with clear disclaimers on the box and other marketing materials that dogs that are too lightweight could be harmed by the product.  You as the consumer are not expected to know more than it takes to pick up a box of medicine off the shelf and read its instructions or cautions.  The law does not expect you to be a veterinarian.  

Neither should the ordinary person be expected to be an expert on unicycles in order to buy one.  

TLDR:  Reasonable expectations are reasonable.  If not, it is up to the manufacturers to say why ordinary expectations might be out of line.  Going up a hill is not an unreasonable expectation.  You can figure out the rest from there.

5.  Finally, that is my opinion.  I believe it's sensible and certainly worlds above your level of LOL sez you!!!  You're entitled to your own.  Maybe I'll come pee on it sometime, to return the favor, if you feel that's the right tone to take with other people.

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, swvision said:

Man, that sucks @Marty Backe ... Did Gotway give you an estimate on when they'll send you a new control board? I'm going to do what @jrkline suggested and solder the control wires together without and get rid of the connectors. Also, I'm going to order a couple of wire insulators to go over the existing wires individually, actual heat insulators used on turbo oil lines in cars. There will be better times.

Cheers Man,

sw

Thanks   I'm getting replacement parts from Ian (Speedyfeet), where I bought the wheel. The ACM is probably out of commission for the next month or so 

On the bright side, I just picked up my brand new MSuper V3s+ (1600wh) from Jason (EWheels). So good times are ahead. And I still have my Monster as a backup. I like to have at least three solid wheels - a main wheel and a backup and a backup to the backup  

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, jrkline said:

12 gage is rated for 20 amps,not 15 amps.14 is rated for 15 amps. @Marty Backe's failure is the first time I have actually seen the wires melt the insulation on the wires coming from the control board not due to a connector failure/fault.The wires on the motor side have a higher heat rated insulation and have never been reported to have melted the insulation to the best of my knowledge.I'm going to replace the board side motor wires on my ACM to circumvent any possible "BrokeBacke" experiences in the future.I don't think that it is fair to blame Gotway for all of these failures.After all,extreme hill riding is not exactly how EUC's are designed to be used.Those of us who choose to use them in extreme or cutting edge ways know this as does @Marty Backe.

@jrkline, just to clarify...  The wires that melted together and shorted were on the motor side of the connector. The wires from the control board showed no stress.

Of course I agree that I was tackling a long very steep hill and that's why I'm not very harsh on the Gotway failure. Under the vast majority of more normal riding conditions the wheels should be fine. But of course if Gotway had a more robust wiring harness from the motor than even this steep hill should be doable.

[Dingfelder]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Thanks   I'm getting replacement parts from Ian (Speedyfeet), where I bought the wheel. The ACM is probably out of commission for the next month or so 

On the bright side, I just picked up my brand new MSuper V3s+ (1600wh) from Jason (EWheels). So good times are ahead. And I still have my Monster as a backup. I like to have at least three solid wheels - a main wheel and a backup and a backup to the backup  

How about a back-up while you're riding?  Now if you could only find a backpack big enough for the Monster ...

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

I do think they are to blame.  Plenty of people live in hilly areas.  Some people live in whole hilly countries!

Rutty trails I can see ... there is a difference between street bikes and offroad bikes, after all.  And cars and motorcycles, so ...

But I do believe people should be able to ride up hills on a EUC.

The hill that cooked my ACM would not be drive-able by any normal car. Hilly areas that are navigable by a car are not a problem for the ACM.

On a side note, I just picked up my MSuper from Jason and saw the stacks of new MSuper's, ACM's, and Monsters in the warehouse. You'll probably have yours by the weekend 

[Dingfelder]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

The hill that cooked my ACM would not be drive-able by any normal car. Hilly areas that are navigable by a car are not a problem for the ACM.

On a side note, I just picked up my MSuper from Jason and saw the stacks of new MSuper's, ACM's, and Monsters in the warehouse. You'll probably have yours by the weekend 

Supposedly Thursday!

Yeah, I will try to avoid inclines higher than recommended in Jason's charts.  I figure he will probably be steering me in the right direction to get the job done without blowing out my machine or faceplanting.  Anything steeper and I will probably just avoid that area permanently.

I don't have a great sense of that, though.  I hope I don't wind up learning the hard way.  But I wouldn't push it on purpose.

[who_the]

Relieved you are OK, Marty. Your wheel will be better than new soon, ready to roll for many more miles.

Reality dictates that our wheels have limits. My MSV3 1300-84W overheated close to 70º C during a steep climb on a public road (Quinby Road) toward Mt. Hamilton on a group ride last month. I was able to complete the ride, and my temperature never got anywhere near the peak on the rest of our ride. But when I got home and inspected my wheel, the solder joints before my board had clearly boiled and melted, but (thank goodness) had not breached. Other wheels on the ride did not reach the temps my wheel did. My reseller (Tec-Toyz) repaired the damaged wire and replaced the soldered connectors. On a hilly ride last weekend my temps got nowhere near overheating.

Be safe everybody.

[Marty Backe]

9 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

Supposedly Thursday!

Yeah, I will try to avoid inclines higher than recommended in Jason's charts.  I figure he will probably be steering me in the right direction to get the job done without blowing out my machine or faceplanting.  Anything steeper and I will probably just avoid that area permanently.

I don't have a great sense of that, though.  I hope I don't wind up learning the hard way.  But I wouldn't push it on purpose.

It's going to be some months before you'll be ready (comfortable) tackling the kind of hill that I was on. You really have nothing to worry about. These hills that some of us ride out here can put the fear of God in you when you are not experienced. Scary.  So you have plenty of time ahead of you before worrying about the kind of hills that could possibly stress your wheel.

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, who_the said:

Relieved you are OK, Marty. Your wheel will be better than new soon, ready to roll for many more miles.

Reality dictates that our wheels have limits. My MSV3 1300-84W overheated close to 70º C during a steep climb on a public road (Quinby Road) toward Mt. Hamilton on a group ride last month. I was able to complete the ride, and my temperature never got anywhere near the peak on the rest of our ride. But when I got home and inspected my wheel, the solder joints before my board had clearly boiled and melted, but (thank goodness) had not breached. Other wheels on the ride did not reach the temps my wheel did. My reseller (Tec-Toyz) repaired the damaged wire and replaced the soldered connectors. On a hilly ride last weekend my temps got nowhere near overheating.

Be safe everybody.

Wow. That looks so familiar . We all need to take these tough hills a little slower don't we? Glad you're up and running again. My ACM is probably out of commission until August.

But hey, I just picked up my MSuper V3s+. The one I ordered shortly after riding yours for a bit. I'm very excited. It smelled so nice coming out of the box - that new car smell   Batteries are super low so it'll be a day before I can give it a test run.

[Dingfelder]

Yeah, I am not going to rush it.  I'm actually very busy through to next week at least, and have maybe a pulled muscle or two in my hip area that has kept me off the trainer this week, so my EUC schedule is being pushed well back whether I like it or not.  

I may take my new MSuper to bed with me, but I won't be riding it for a some weeks to come, most likely.

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, Dingfelder said:

<snip>

I may take my new MSuper to bed with me, <snip>

Please take a picture 

[Radislav]

On 20.06.2017 at 3:32 AM, Marty Backe said:

Don't give up on the ACM. Today was the first failure...

Today was my first failure too. After over 5000 km of safe riding.

I jumped off a high curb at nearly 20 km/h and forced the Ninebot One even more immediately after landing. My ACM did it with ease with just a little nod at even higher speeds. So I got used to it and relaxed. But Ninebot One E+ just couldn’t cope ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Palm and elbow protection made its job very well. The sound of cheering from the crowd was my reward. There is always a first time

This appeared to be quite hard sequence for a wheel. Please don’t repeat

[Marty Backe]

"Sound of cheering from the crowd"   Very funny 

There's no way around it. Our EUC fun is a contact sport. You have to be prepared to get very friendly with the ground every once in awhile 

[MaxLinux]

3 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

But I do believe people should be able to ride up hills on a EUC.

Where I live is so hilly, I could not ride EUCs if they were unable to climb hills. I'd spend half my time off the wheel, and that's no fun!

However, I am happy to report that the following I own handle 99% of hills great: IPS 121, IPS 191 (Lhotz), Gotway MSuper V2. I have only done limited hill testing with my Gotway MCM3, but it has performed great on every hill I've tried so far. My definition of "great" hill climbing does not necessarily mean the wheel zooms effortlessly up the hill. I mean it might slow down significantly, but reaches the top reliably.

During the past couple of months, I've built up the courage to try some hills in my area that I was afraid to try in the past, and my wheels have succeeded on every one. There is one hill remaining in my area that I am still afraid to try because it is super steep and long. I've ridden down this hill, but not up.

[OliverH]

55 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Wow. That looks so familiar . We all need to take these tough hills a little slower don't we? Glad you're up and running again. My ACM is probably out of commission until August.

But hey, I just picked up my MSuper V3s+. The one I ordered shortly after riding yours for a bit. I'm very excited. It smelled so nice coming out of the box - that new car smell   Batteries are super low so it'll be a day before I can give it a test run.

The manufacturer needs to be aware of this temps because he (shoul) did exzessive testing and has thresholds in place. Nice to see that the MOSFETs withstand this peak loads right now. But if in the chain any other component has limits the firmware if the PCB needs to take action for a cool down. No one has problems when the EUC brakes you down in a controlled manner/ gives you voice message to protect the EUC. But designing it right from the start is better. The PLEV standard has some terminals short test to see not proper engineering on the cables and also link to the standard wich gives you the table to choose the right cables for the current load.

[MaxLinux]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

But of course if Gotway had a more robust wiring harness from the motor than even this steep hill should be doable.

How about a miniature version of the "looms" used for spark plug wires? It keeps a space between the wires.

[Dingfelder]

8 minutes ago, MaxLinux said:

Where I live is so hilly, I could not ride EUCs if they were unable to climb hills. I'd spend half my time off the wheel, and that's no fun!

Exactly the same with me.  If I couldn't get up hills, there's no way I would have bought an EUC.  I'm surrounded by hills!   And I'm no 140-pounder.

9 minutes ago, MaxLinux said:

However, I am happy to report that the following I own handle 99% of hills great: IPS 121, IPS 191 (Lhotz), Gotway MSuper V2. I have only done limited hill testing with my Gotway MCM3, but it has performed great on every hill I've tried so far. My definition of "great" hill climbing does not necessarily mean the wheel zooms effortlessly up the hill. I mean it might slow down significantly, but reaches the top reliably.

During the past couple of months, I've built up the courage to try some hills in my area that I was afraid to try in the past, and my wheels have succeeded on every one.

That's great!   

I'm not aching to be a speed demon either.  I just don't want to have to carry a wheel up hills.  

[Marty Backe]

29 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

Exactly the same with me.  If I couldn't get up hills, there's no way I would have bought an EUC.  I'm surrounded by hills!   And I'm no 140-pounder.

That's great!   

I'm not aching to be a speed demon either.  I just don't want to have to carry a wheel up hills.  

As an experiment, maybe drive your car very slowly up some of your hills and record the route with a GPS app. Export the data to Google Earth and look at the elevation profile. What slope (%) do you see. If they are 25+% than you may have something to worry about.

[Marty Backe]

39 minutes ago, MaxLinux said:

How about a miniature version of the "looms" used for spark plug wires? It keeps a space between the wires.

Unfortunately at some point they have to get tightly bundled together in order that they can be threaded through the axle.

[Dingfelder]

30 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

As an experiment, maybe drive your car very slowly up some of your hills and record the route with a GPS app. Export the data to Google Earth and look at the elevation profile. What slope (%) do you see. If they are 25+% than you may have something to worry about.

That's a good idea, thanks.  I don't even have a smartphone, but I bought one.  I will need to get it set up still, and then I can look into an app like that.

I tried using google earth on my PC to trace the route from my house down to where my development meets the first outside street, but couldn't do it.  I kept getting the path redirected across a field and through a wooded area instead of along the road.  

But if I record the trip in an app, that should solve that problem.