IPS ZERO

[Chris Westland]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

A small correction: you are talking about the InMotion V5, not the V5F. The latter has a 550W motor and 25km/h max speed.

Thanks Mono for the clarification ... I was being pretty general in my comparisons, as the Zero is advertised as having a 1000W motor (peak?) so I was guessing about half of that... and more importantly, none of the Zero's competitors let you go 30km/h, and I'm suggesting that the Zero really should not be ridden past 20km/h.

[Chris Westland]

6 hours ago, Smoother said:

Hello @BarrieR and welcome.

Ah yes! The, "don't have enough battery reserve to accelerate up an incline-face plant".  Know it well.  Good times! Good times!

ive got 340wh too and what I have learned, the face plant way, is that once you're under about 60% with a smallish battery like this, you need to consciously manage your demands on the battery.  Thusly: ... {followed by some good advice}

 

I agree with @Smoother and think that some of the problem may be the Sony batteries that IPS used in the 340Wh Zero.  Their performance lags that of the LG MH1 that @Jason McNeil is having put into the V5F+, V8 etc. (I believe he has some Zero's too that have not cleared customs, where the batteries are MH1's).   The IPS Zero is a beautiful 14" wheel (on the outside; the inside might use a bit of cleaning up) but I think IPS has overstated the specs.   I think the wheel would be vastly improved with a firmware update that would max speed at 20km/h, impose tiltback and warnings when batteries are unable to provide peak power, and perhaps IPS could make some changes to battery power delivery to insure stability in the higher speeds.

I also think that IPS' engineers, and @王月月 should be a part of this thread, and providing some input to both defend the reputation of the Zero as well as clarify the engineering decisions and trade offs that they have made in its design.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Chris Westland

[Chris Westland]

On 11/16/2015 at 4:00 AM, micro said:

My personal conclusion from this discussion:

The main point is the voltage drop of the battery when high currents of 20A and more are drawn by the motor control.
The capacity in Ah or the storage capability in Wh give us the usable range, the safety as meant here is related to the internal resistance.

The 130Wh battery packs use cells with a rather high internal resistance. In case they would be replaced by the magic LG H2 cells, the internal resistance should be comparable to the 260Wh battery (half of the 130Wh pack) or even better.

The 340Wh is not safer. As long as we do not know the battery used in this pack we even cannot say that the internal resistance is as good as that of the 260Wh pack. Obviously designers cannot optimize capacity and internal resistance simultaneously.

Here
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkuvergleich.php?akku1=561&akku2=128&akku3=&akku4=&akku5=&akku6=&a=5
an example. You can see that one battery has a higher capacity, the other (LG H2) a lower resistance. The LG H2 is even better than two in parallel of the examples I took for the comparison.

Nevertheless, the 130Wh battery could be used safely in case we are observing constantly the voltage. I would wish to have a meter (amps, volts, Ah) in all EUCs. It would be a safety feature. At least I myself would feel much better. I am working on a solution.

The indication by means of four LEDs (Airwheel & Co) or blinking (IPS non-zero) is not too bad. These LEDs do not show the state of charge or the remaining capacity (there is no Ah counter = ampere hour meter) but indicate four voltage levels. This is misunderstood here frequently. It is a voltmeter and thus you can see it go up as soon as the current is lowered or there is some energy recovering when driving downhill.

@micro I'd be interested in knowing whether you ever did this.  I have intentions of installing an Eagle Tree logger on my IPS Zero just to get a better idea, as @Jason McNeil has done with a number of EUCs.  For this basic information the Data Logger just plugs in between the battery and the wheel.  

@esaj provided a nice description of the mechanism that allows a current sag from the batteries can have catastrophic results (including blowing MosFETs).  

And @Jason McNeil suggested on his KingSong that: "There is also information from the vendor & experimentation, that the constraining factor on the KS800 is not the battery pack, which could in principle sustain 4.3KW, & burst above 10KW!, but the control-board, whose MOSFETs are challenged beyond 3.5KW."   I wonder if this could be a problem elsewhere.  Some of the early 132W Zero's owned by forum members as I recall burned some MOSFETs.

 

The curves from the Zero's Sony batteries versus the LG MH2 can be compared at http://www.dampfakkus.de/index.php.  

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Chris Westland

[rayna903]

On 2015/8/8 at 7:54 AM, Mono said:

Why would the Zero-260 and the Zero-340 have exactly the same weight? 

I am sorry that there is something wrong, zero260:10.3kg,  zero340: 11kg 

[Chris Westland]

8 hours ago, rayna903 said:

On 8/7/2015 at 6:54 PM, Mono said:

Why would the Zero-260 and the Zero-340 have exactly the same weight? 

I am sorry that there is something wrong, zero260:10.3kg,  zero340: 11kg 

I actually expected them to have the same weight, as the 260 and 340 have the same number and size of batteries; the 340 just uses slightly higher capacity batteries.

[US69]

2 hours ago, Chris Westland said:

I actually expected them to have the same weight, as the 260 and 340 have the same number and size of batteries; the 340 just uses slightly higher capacity batteries.

 

You are probably right...there can be a very, very tiny difference between different cell brands...but that would not work out in i difference of 700 Gramm!

 

On ‎01‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 3:59 PM, Chris Westland said:

I agree with @Smoother and think that some of the problem may be the Sony batteries that IPS used in the 340Wh Zero.  Their performance lags that of the LG MH1 that @Jason McNeil is having put into the V5F+, V8 etc. (I believe he has some Zero's too that have not cleared customs, where the batteries are MH1's).   The IPS Zero is a beautiful 14" wheel (on the outside; the inside might use a bit of cleaning up) but I think IPS has overstated the specs.   I think the wheel would be vastly improved with a firmware update that would max speed at 20km/h, impose tiltback and warnings when batteries are unable to provide peak power, and perhaps IPS could make some changes to battery power delivery to insure stability in the higher speeds.

 

340wh Version of Zero probably will not have Sony batteries ....as there are just no batteries from Sony existing in that mah range....(2900mah is needed for a 340wh Batterie!!!)

The only Sony cell with 2900mah is a Sony US18650NC1 (8Amps) which is absolutly Ultra Crap on higher amp draws and -as far as i know- these are not used for Euc's....and if IPS does that really...it's a shame!

Normally  340wh batteries are about the same specs as the LG MH1 (means 10Amp capable) and this are mostly then Pana 18650PF or 18650PD or the LG MG1....( all 2900mah) in our 340wh EUC's

As it seams IPS just wanted to Profit from the "good" Name of the Sony brand when they do Marketing...but thats just a guess!

 

The Cut-Outs on lower Watthour range Batterie Setups often comes from the BMS (BatterieManagementSystem-PCB), not the batteries itself.

Especially on a 130wh Setup where you have only one set of 16cell series which has to cary the amperage draw alone, instead of 2 parallel 16 cell series than on 260wh and 340wh that split the amperage draw on the 2 parallel systems!

If the cells  get a decent Volt sag because of the amperage draw and this Voltsag goes under a certain Voltage allowed by the BMS, the BMS cuts the power off to save the batterie!

A Problem that can be solved by "shunting" the BMS...which means preparing the BMS so that the saftey of the rider is then more important than the Batterie...

Good BMS's dont Need this anymore nowadays...

[Chris Westland]

2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

You are probably right...there can be a very, very tiny difference between different cell brands...but that would not work out in i difference of 700 Gramm!

340wh Version of Zero probably will not have Sony batteries ....as there are just no batteries from Sony existing in that mah range....(2900mah is needed for a 340wh Batterie!!!)

The only Sony cell with 2900mah is a Sony US18650NC1 (8Amps) which is absolutly Ultra Crap on higher amp draws and -as far as i know- these are not used for Euc's....and if IPS does that really...it's a shame!

Normally  340wh batteries are about the same specs as the LG MH1 (means 10Amp capable) and this are mostly then Pana 18650PF or 18650PD or the LG MG1....( all 2900mah) in our 340wh EUC's

As it seams IPS just wanted to Profit from the "good" Name of the Sony brand when they do Marketing...but thats just a guess!

 

I haven't actually opened up my IPS Zero (I'll do that when I get my datalogger) so haven't looked at the batteries.   I trust you on the battery range, though would be curious if China doesn't have access to some batteries that are not sold outside of China.  On the other hand, Sony just sold (as I understand) their LiPo battery operations to Murata, another Japanese firm.

I did find a statement from Sony about 18650(VTC) batteries (that would seem to be appropriate for EUCs) on the Powerstream site:

Our VP of Sales spent a lot of time and energy trying to find someone at Sony that could tell us the status of the US18650 VTC4 and VTC5 batteries. He was successful, but the news is bad. Here is the copyrighted response:   Thank you for your inquiry.  The 18650(VTC) type batteries are no longer manufactured by Sony.  This product was never intended for individual, public sale and are not eligible for warranty or engineering support. It was only available to OEM makers of specific devices.  The specifications and markings on the battery may vary depending upon the OEM’s requirements. Therefore, it is difficult to determine the true manufacturer or authenticity of the batteries without physical inspection and manufacturing code research.  This type of battery seems to be widely available on the internet market through non-authorized resellers. Therefore, Sony is not liable for the performance or use of this type battery for non-intended purposes. Such applications should be done at the user’s own risk. Furthermore, any battery of this type claimed to be Sony brand may be older stock. We apologize that we cannot offer further assistance with this matter. Sincerely, Sony Commentary: It is very unfortunate that Sony would cancel the production of these cells, since they have been shown to be the highest performance high discharge cells ever made. However, they are a big company and have recently had an estimated $300 million dollar recall due to safety concerns. This may be why they decided to close this production line, since it is the most extreme battery they made.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Chris Westland

[US69]

 

@Chris Westland the vtc series from sony are high draw capable cells with up to 30amp and yes...they are not any more produced by sony themself....

but vtc4 or 5 only had a marx capacity of 2100/2600mah...only vtc6 is 3000mah, but about 3x expensive than our 10amp cells and even brandnew from this year :-) all vtc sonys have not been used in mass EUC production since now...(gotway luffy seams to be first ever!)

and yes...you can trust me on that batterie experience....

you would not want to have "china" or "not importted no name" cells in your Euc

[Jason McNeil]

55 minutes ago, Chris Westland said:

It is very unfortunate that Sony would cancel the production of these cells, since they have been shown to be the highest performance high discharge cells ever made.

I remember reading that between 60-75% of the cell's cost were in raw materials (e.g. Cobalt, Nickel, Lithium, Manganese), the price of the battery cells is dependent on stable commodity prices. For a risk-averse company like Sony it's probably not worth their while to continue production. 

One of the cells to recently make it on to the German Battery Test site is new Sony VTC6 http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=645 They cancelled the 30A test (while the older VTC4-6 cells passed?) on account of it reaching the thermal limit of 100°C

Sourcing cells, because of counterfeit concerns, is a big problem. I've had a couple cases where I was waiting up to two months from the manufacturer's preferred supplier to come up with the goods, while some other reputable suppliers had stock of the LG HG2s. The Manufacturer didn't want to be on the hook if something went terribly wrong. Seeing the physical resemblances between a 'good' counterfeit & the real thing, you can understand the concerns. 

https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/104619270-can-you-identify-the-fake-lg-hg2-18650-battery

[US69]

1 minute ago, Jason McNeil said:

is new Sony VTC6 http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=645 They cancelled the 30A test (while the older VTC4-6 cells passed?) on account of it reaching the thermal limit of 100°C

vtc5 is also known to get damn hot...

official on some sites for vtc6 is 30amp if temperature controlled...otherwise only specified to 15Amp

[Jason McNeil]

9 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

vtc5 is also known to get damn hot...

official on some sites for vtc6 is 30amp if temperature controlled...otherwise only specified to 15Amp

Yeah I agree & don't believe the Dampfakkus data: 30A discharge & only 48°C, while the VTC6 exceeds 100°C under the same conditions???! Something's not right!

[Chris Westland]

5 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

I remember reading that between 60-75% of the cell's cost were in raw materials (e.g. Cobalt, Nickel, Lithium, Manganese), the price of the battery cells is dependent on stable commodity prices. For a risk-averse company like Sony it's probably not worth their while to continue production. 

One of the cells to recently make it on to the German Battery Test site is new Sony VTC6 http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=645 They cancelled the 30A test (while the older VTC4-6 cells passed?) on account of it reaching the thermal limit of 100°C

Sourcing cells, because of counterfeit concerns, is a big problem. I've had a couple cases where I was waiting up to two months from the manufacturer's preferred supplier to come up with the goods, while some other reputable suppliers had stock of the LG HG2s. The Manufacturer didn't want to be on the hook if something went terribly wrong. Seeing the physical resemblances between a 'good' counterfeit & the real thing, you can understand the concerns. 

https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/104619270-can-you-identify-the-fake-lg-hg2-18650-battery

I wrote up a particularly egregious counterfeiting case, from a story from HK PI Steve Vickers, in the first edition of my Global Innovation Management.  Panasonic's aftermarket service and warranty people were starting to receive returns on products that didn't seem to be in any of their manuals.  So they brought it up with management, and management decided they were counterfeit products; often good designs, and even build quality, but not from Panasonic's factories.  They hired Vicker's PI firm to find out where these goods were being sourced, and they traced it to a large factory in South China that for all purposes was a Panasonic facility -- the building had Panasonic signs, the reception had consumer literature, and they had a clueless sales force that had Panasonic calling cards.   A lot of the staff was surprised when they found out they weren't working for the real Panasonic.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Chris Westland

[Chris Westland]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

I remember reading that between 60-75% of the cell's cost were in raw materials (e.g. Cobalt, Nickel, Lithium, Manganese), the price of the battery cells is dependent on stable commodity prices. For a risk-averse company like Sony it's probably not worth their while to continue production. 

 

I've heard that Lithium in particular is in short supply ... there is a lot of it in the Earth, but huge increases in demand because of Tesla's Gigafactory, and the generally hot market for Lithium means that processing it is at capacity. 

[Jason McNeil]

16 minutes ago, Chris Westland said:

A lot of the staff was surprised when they found out they weren't working for the real Panasonic.

 That's hilarious! Tragedy in cases like this is that fiends who mastermind this stuff probably walk free & repeat the whole scheme in some other province all over again... 

[Chris Westland]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

 That's hilarious! Tragedy in cases like this is that fiends who mastermind this stuff probably walk free & repeat the whole scheme in some other province all over again... 

This was pre-WTO.  Since that time Beijing has to listen to foreign complaints, and has gotten a lot faster in cleaning up these problem.   I know @Jason McNeilthat you spend a bit of time in China, so you must have seen the change since Xi Jinping started his anti-corruption campaign.  In the past 3 years, fake markets I used to visit, e.g. the Silk Road Market (“秀水街”= fashion water street) in Beijing, have been gutted.   

[王月月]

Thank you very much @Chris Westland

Maybe there is always someone saying that our IPS has been closed or out of business, but we are always there, from the first domestic manufacture to now, to the future. We produce wheels one generation by one, don't reduce the quality to cheat customers, and every generation wheel has own unique special, I series, F series, T series, Lhotz, Zero series. We produce wheels, not copy wheels. We are not sure to keep each wheel is perfect, but we make our best to reduce mistakes, and we sure we can provide the best service for our customers, if your wheel is IPS, you can find us at any time when you have any problem, we are willing to help.  IPS is going on, as you know, we are just producing wheels for you.  

[Chris Westland]

8 hours ago, 王月月 said:

Thank you very much @Chris Westland

Maybe there is always someone saying that our IPS has been closed or out of business, but we are always there, from the first domestic manufacture to now, to the future. We produce wheels one generation by one, don't reduce the quality to cheat customers, and every generation wheel has own unique special, I series, F series, T series, Lhotz, Zero series. We produce wheels, not copy wheels. We are not sure to keep each wheel is perfect, but we make our best to reduce mistakes, and we sure we can provide the best service for our customers, if your wheel is IPS, you can find us at any time when you have any problem, we are willing to help.  IPS is going on, as you know, we are just producing wheels for you.  

I'm very much enthused about IPS designs @王月月 and I feel the brand is under-appreciated in the US and Europe because of confusion about design and engineering objectives.  For example, there has been some debate on this forum about whether the IPS Zero has an 800W or ~500W sustained output; and especially there has been debate about the batteries used in the Zero and their characteristics.  

I think many Forum users would be enthused to see the IPS factory response in some of these discussions.  It would provide IPS a chance to clear up misunderstandings in the market.

 

[Planetpapi]

IPS is a good brand but they confuse with model names.

[Mono]

2 hours ago, Planetpapi said:

IPS is a good brand but they confuse with model names.

and with motor power numbers which, I believe, are kinda inflated.

[王月月]

On 2017/1/11 at 1:53 AM, Planetpapi said:

IPS is a good brand but they confuse with model names.

We have been aware of this problem, we will pay attention to this, thanks for your support.

[王月月]

On 2017/1/11 at 4:40 AM, Mono said:

and with motor power numbers which, I believe, are kinda inflated.

Parameters are based on test, thank you very much 

[Mono]

15 hours ago, 王月月 said:

Parameters are based on test, thank you very much 

Can you give the specifics of how the motor power is determined precisely? Thanks in advance!

Edited January 13, 2017 by Mono

[Chris Westland]

Some quick thoughts on the IPS Zero just coming back in from a ride.  This is really a phenomenal EUC, but with some idiosyncrasies.  The Zero is very light (!!) relatively short, and the pedals are low to the ground, yet it has good power, acceleration and a max speed of 30 km/h.   So I find that riding (compared to my Inmotion V8) the Zero feels very twitchy even on "comfort" mode; it requires continual attention and control input.  Part of this arises from the fact that my calves don't touch the Zero's sides, so control is only accomplished with the shifting of my body weight.

With the Zero, I think you need more inputs, use your calves and ankles less, and use your core much more.  And you have to limit the diameter of the turns that you make, because if you are leaning into the turns, it is very easy to catch the pedal (perhaps one of my biggest issues with the Zero) and fall off.  I think it would be better if the pedals were raised up to, say, the level of the Inmotion V5's.  The alternative to 'sweeper' turns is to unweight and use your waist to jerk the wheel 180 degrees (which is easy since the wheel is light and small).  I haven't gotten these right yet, but should with a little practice.  Overall a great wheel, but one that requires some accommodation in riding style.

[csmyers]

On 2/4/2017 at 6:26 PM, Chris Westland said:

Some quick thoughts on the IPS Zero just coming back in from a ride.  This is really a phenomenal EUC, but with some idiosyncrasies.  The Zero is very light (!!) relatively short, and the pedals are low to the ground, yet it has good power, acceleration and a max speed of 30 km/h.   So I find that riding (compared to my Inmotion V8) the Zero feels very twitchy even on "comfort" mode; it requires continual attention and control input.  Part of this arises from the fact that my calves don't touch the Zero's sides, so control is only accomplished with the shifting of my body weight.

With the Zero, I think you need more inputs, use your calves and ankles less, and use your core much more.  And you have to limit the diameter of the turns that you make, because if you are leaning into the turns, it is very easy to catch the pedal (perhaps one of my biggest issues with the Zero) and fall off.  I think it would be better if the pedals were raised up to, say, the level of the Inmotion V5's.  The alternative to 'sweeper' turns is to unweight and use your waist to jerk the wheel 180 degrees (which is easy since the wheel is light and small).  I haven't gotten these right yet, but should with a little practice.  Overall a great wheel, but one that requires some accommodation in riding style.

Coming from a bigger wheel, I agree it feels more twitchy! I also love how lightweight it is, perfect for carrying around.

I would just warn you against quick acceleration in general, especially on low battery. People have graphed the available torque on the motor, and it drops off quickly after about 12 km/h. 

Regarding turning, I manage tight turns by bending my outside leg and tilting the wheel dramatically while steering from my shoulders, rather than steering exclusively from my upper body. The 14" wheel diameter is really great for maneuvering!

Happy riding!

[Chris Westland]

1 hour ago, csmyers said:

Coming from a bigger wheel, I agree it feels more twitchy! I also love how lightweight it is, perfect for carrying around.

I would just warn you against quick acceleration in general, especially on low battery. People have graphed the available torque on the motor, and it drops off quickly after about 12 km/h. 

Regarding turning, I manage tight turns by bending my outside leg and tilting the wheel dramatically while steering from my shoulders, rather than steering exclusively from my upper body. The 14" wheel diameter is really great for maneuvering!

Happy riding!

I agree fully that it is the contrast with the larger wheel that emphasizes the twitchiness.  Nothing else is as light and compact as the Zero though. 

One point on the quick acceleration.  The available torque did drop (almost in half) at about 16km/h according to the Russian dyno study, but that study used a motorcycle inertial drum which would be equivalent to having a 500lb rider on the Zero (I'm 150 lb).   I've been experimenting with ac & de -celeration with my Zero almost since I got it, and I do not notice a dramatic difference at speed.  Nonetheless, it's a 340Wh EUC that goes 30km/h, and no other manufacturer does 30km/h with such a small motor and battery.  So there is reason for suspicion.   I have an EagleTree datalogger that I'm going to install in the Zero whenever I get motivated to open it up.  This will allow me to see the power curves.  I haven't been able to make the speed and temperature sensors on the logger work yet, so I'll plan to get those to work before opening the Zero.  

Edited February 6, 2017 by Chris Westland