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Issues about Msuper V3s+ and ACMs+


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1 hour ago, vladmarks said:

<snip>

Yet, I hardly see a Kingsong owner going "my wheel tipped off at maximum speed", not to mention Inmotion. Gotway is all over this forum - mosfet issues, motor issues, pcb issues. If I were a small dealer, I wouldn't for a second think putting my eggs near Gotway's basket simply based off the feedback. Nor would I get agents in China to run errands, cause statistically they would provide data closely correlated with customer feedback.

<snip>

Since Gotway is known for pushing the limits, many people buy their wheels and then proceed to test the limits and many crash as a result. KingSong does not have that reputation so you don't see people trying to push the KingSong wheels to their limits. So regarding high-speed cutouts I think it's a little unfair to pile on Gotway.

I still think the vast majority of Gotway owners never have any problems with their wheels. It's human nature for us to complain when something doesn't work as expected. Yet we all know that most people don't write posts like, "My Wheel Continues To Operate Perfectly". So we can get this false sense that Gotway just produces crap. I just don't buy it.

I'm going to start publishing more positive stories (i.e., boring) to try and balance things out ;)

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I agree with @dalewalker that Gotways reaction is ultimately very disappointing. (No idea about the rest you guys are arguing about here)

In the end we still don't even know the cause of the issue (they may or may not), and it seems Gotway would be happy to do as little as possible and hope people don't crash (or crash and keep to themselves) instead of actively confronting the problem. It's the lack of trust in their willingness or abilities (and thus the wheels) that's so frustrating. "Hey let's ship out a few new boards and make a broken English post with little other information" isn't good enough. Who the hell inventorizes their wheels by shipping date (instead of, you know, production date, supplier part batches, manufacturing worker, serial number, motor code,...)? Someone who has no inventory system, just shipping records!

If only Kingsong offered bigger batteries and slightly stronger motors, they seem increasingly ahead in terms of design, production and testing.

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39 minutes ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

we should be ok as long as the EUC speedsters do not collide with pedestrians. I am certain if a pedestrian is killed or injured by someone going 40KPH the lawyers will jump to litigate the hell out of anyone they can associate with the incident.

The same rule of thumb as motorcycle riding i think should be applied.  Or Sky/Snowboarding.

1. Do not pass at a fast speed next to people AND especially animals. (you might startle and induce a chase).

2. Always have a 2nd detour route when approaching traffic if you are not mentally prepared to stop. ( rule 1 should eliminate collisions).

3. observe the flow of traffic,  IE: alot of parks have a pedestrian lane and fast/bike lane. + You yield unless passing (Just like driving).

i see operating an EUC no different than a skateboard/bike.


now to this recent Vendor collision happening.  There should be a separate Vendor chat so they can handle their dispute.  IMO Vendor to Vendor personal attacks should be left out of these threads and taken offline, if there isn't a specific 'vendor issue directory'. <-- i've seen these for car forums. it helps filter.


The Gotway ACM+ issue is interesting, sounds very similar to the Ninebot 1P having voltage issue at the higher speeds (and it seems eventually stopped selling).

I still plan on getting a Gotway here in the next month, but been riding  an NB1E+ for almost a month.. and wanting more speed.  (safety gear should be worn obviously... like other things in life... luck favors the prepared).


Now let's all get along and have fun.   These EUC are sweet, and i'm glad i bought 3 NB1 to make it a family experience :)

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3 hours ago, Mono said:

The injury is not exactly in the area where a full face helmet actually adds protection.

well, i guess he's lucky he didn't impale his face on a friggin railroad spike, then - may we all have the same fortune!

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14 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Since Gotway is known for pushing the limits, many people buy their wheels and then proceed to test the limits and many crash as a result. KingSong does not have that reputation so you don't see people trying to push the KingSong wheels to their limits. So regarding high-speed cutouts I think it's a little unfair to pile on Gotway.

A great point. I agree that what Gotway does should be taken with respect, but also with a pinch of sobriety. And maybe it's up for us, too, to settle for slightly less than maximum :) I'm just glad that the world hasn't yet seen a collateral damage lawsuit related to EUCs, whether a hardware fault or rider behaviour related one. To avoid that would be in our common best interest. as  @Sketch pointed out:

16 hours ago, Sketch said:

We all love riding wheels and we all want to be safe of course.  Let's keep our focus and efforts on pushing these companies to make the right improvements.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Since Gotway is known for pushing the limits, many people buy their wheels and then proceed to test the limits and many crash as a result. KingSong does not have that reputation so you don't see people trying to push the KingSong wheels to their limits. So regarding high-speed cutouts I think it's a little unfair to pile on Gotway.

I think it is the opposite way around:

Kingsong does NOT ALLOW you to push the limits to the max! Their Tiltback sets in at a max speed THEY set as safe, so there is ALLWAYS enough margin to the real cutout speed, so that this cutout speed can NOT be reached by the driver/customer. That has nothing to do with Reputation......you just can not go that stupid crazy on a KS..... for me thats a real, real good decision safety wise!

So whom to blame if not Gotway, for their stupid "we leave alle decisions to the driver" politics? A driver, who sometimes knows nothing about cutouts, max amp, back EMF, voltage drop, and such things!  Its Gotways fault, and theirs all alone, to let the wheel run into a cutout and do NOTHING to protect the user from doing it.....

And it would be so easy to do for Gotway....instead of a 80% alarm beeper, just also implement a tiltback at 83-85%...and there you go.....

Instead their advice is: where safety gear....if you want go fast....haha...

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2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Kingsong does NOT ALLOW you to push the limits to the max! Their Tiltback sets in at a max speed THEY set as safe, so there is ALLWAYS enough margin to the real cutout speed, so that this cutout speed can NOT be reached by the driver/customer. That has nothing to do with Reputation......you just can not go that stupid crazy on a KS..... for me thats a real, real good decision safety wise!

So whom to blame if not Gotway, for their stupid "we leave alle decisions to the driver" politics? A driver, who sometimes knows nothing about cutouts, max amp, back EMF, voltage drop, and such things!

I think that the "outrage" that most people have, is when they get hurt and think that it is the fault of the wheel.  I think that most of us would be OK with falling and getting hurt if we felt like it was due to our own inability to control the wheel at high speed, such as falling due to "speed wobbles" or because of running into a pot hole, stick/root, curb, etc.  The idea that we, as riders, need to understand the electronics and not push them because they may fail and leave us face down, kissing pavement is crazy (to me).  I realize that many people who read this will give me some analogy to to riding a motorcycle or other vehicle and tell me how I have to understand the limitations of those and likewise the limitations of an EUC, but in my opinion, I think that there is some serious lack of safety precautions that are going on in these wheels with respect to cut-outs.  I tell people all the time how much fun these EUCs are to ride and I've got my kids hooked already, but if I take another face plant riding in a manner than seems reasonable to me (it's relative, I know) then it'll be hard for me to continue to promote these devices.  So far I've had experience with Inmotion (v5F and v8) and Kingsong (KS-14C).  It may be all coincidence but in terms of safety the Inmotion wheel has all of my confidence and the KS has none...again, maybe just some bad luck?  Knowing that I have an ACM on the way to my home shortly, gives me mixed feelings, which is brutal when you consider how much we pay for these things...all that I should be thinking right now is how excited I am to ride this badass wheel, but I can't help but think of how I'm going to handle another cutout and whether or not I'll escape major injury...that sucks.  I truly feel like the manufacturers of these wheels should provide more confidence to their end-user than they currently have done (sorry @Linnea Lin Gotway).  Hopefully in a month I'm touting how much I enjoy the ACM and how well engineered it is rather than seeing me post a "for sale" thread in the "Private Sales" section :barf:

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2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

I think it is the opposite way around:

Kingsong does NOT ALLOW you to push the limits to the max! Their Tiltback sets in at a max speed THEY set as safe, so there is ALLWAYS enough margin to the real cutout speed, so that this cutout speed can NOT be reached by the driver/customer. That has nothing to do with Reputation......you just can not go that stupid crazy on a KS..... for me thats a real, real good decision safety wise!

So whom to blame if not Gotway, for their stupid "we leave alle decisions to the driver" politics? A driver, who sometimes knows nothing about cutouts, max amp, back EMF, voltage drop, and such things!  Its Gotways fault, and theirs all alone, to let the wheel run into a cutout and do NOTHING to protect the user from doing it.....

And it would be so easy to do for Gotway....instead of a 80% alarm beeper, just also implement a tiltback at 83-85%...and there you go.....

Instead their advice is: where safety gear....if you want go fast....haha...

You point out one of the fundamental differences between KingSong and Gotway - Choice. KingSong is a little like Apple; they want to control everything and tell you what they are going to allow to be done. In this regards Gotway is like Google/Android; you're much more freer to do as you like even if you're going to shoot yourself in the foot.

This is a very personal decision. I prefer Choice.

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4 minutes ago, Maximus said:

I realize that many people who read this will give me some analogy to to riding a motorcycle or other vehicle and tell me how I have to understand the limitations of those and likewise the limitations of an EUC, but in my opinion, I think that there is some serious lack of safety precautions that are going on in these wheels with respect to cut-outs.  

I've never experienced a cutout although I have experienced an overlean when a path went from a downhill to an uphill without me noticing it.

To get some idea how ridiculously difficult it is to handle a cutout on a wheel, simply try to ride your wheel with the power turned off. I can stay on for maybe half a second, usually less. It seems impossible to stay on, and now imagine leaning forward when the power cuts.

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3 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I've never experienced a cutout although I have experienced an overlean when a path went from a downhill to an uphill without me noticing it.

To get some idea how ridiculously difficult it is to handle a cutout on a wheel, simply try to ride your wheel with the power turned off. I can stay on for maybe half a second, usually less. It seems impossible to stay on, and now imagine leaning forward when the power cuts.

There's a video someplace that shows a guy riding an EUC great distances (dozens of feet) without power. I guess if you practice it can be done.

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This has nothing to do with dumb riders or choice (ok if people complain after overleaning their wheel, their fault).

It's about the lack of trust in having a reasonably safe and competently designed wheel. When riding, you're elated, it's so much fun. Then you break your wheel or read about the obvious design flaws and now sudden mysterious cut outs, see the company's insufficient reaction, see that they really don't know what they are doing well enough to give you a trustworthy product, and aren't bothered too much by it. It's just frustrating and feels heartbreaking.

@Carlos E Rodriguez described it very well in some other thread. It's a love-hate-relationship with Gotway. Or love-heartbreak. Just like an actual relationship, should not be like this. And it's on Gotway to fix this.

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1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

<snip>

It's a love-hate-relationship with Gotway. Or love-heartbreak. Just like an actual relationship, should not be like this. And it's on Gotway to fix this.

I know that I'm an outlier, but I have a love-love relationship with Gotway :wub:

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If the Gotway ACM 16+ has a brown out or failure point due to hardware design.  There should be some audible indicator imo. As well, as it should NOT be cutting out at mid-range.  

IE:
I pushed my ninebot one E+,  it was beeping.. i ignored it..  kept on the forward tilt to sustain.  and it shutoff on me.  That is human error.  But the device warned me.


IMO Manufacture Liability:
If i'm at 'stated supported speed'.  Be it 10mph, 20mph. or even the listed "30mph".  If the device is hitting a battery temp, motor temp, voltage workload.  As a driver, i should receive some type of indicator, audible and if not tilt back (i've had it where it just beeps and there is no tilt back).   To indicate i am near a limit, due to some factor.

^^^ if that safety design is not baked in.  Somebody WILL get hurt, and will fire off a class action lawsuit.   Because some people use these for commuting in the USA.  (quite a bit here in Seattle).

I would akin it to, your car just dying.. with no CEL/check engine light.  Or  my bike wheel just suddenly coming off (they built in hooks and tensioners these days just incase btw).

I hope they squash whatever mosfet/power issue they are having.. from what i've read, it's something to due with mosfet burnout, at higher speed rates. which means something with current and circuit degradation is how i'm interrupting that,.

I know i'm the new guy.  but iv'e been drifting for 22years... i've slid an 81chevette, 240sx, ae86, miata na, rx8, Wifes Chrysler Pacifica, and my Ducati 1098.  I hope to be able to drift a wheel sometime..  but if i can safely ride it at the limit, i'll have to find one that does.

Which is why i got the NB1E+  for durabilty, and reliability.   I'd be pissed if one flaked out on my kid. but we wear gear when in public. unless we are just going to the school and park.

i'll stop my rant.  I still want the ACM 16+.. but if the reliability isn't sorted by next month i'll just continue searching.
 

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I know that I'm an outlier, but I have a love-love relationship with Gotway :wub:

I'm with you Marty.  I have really liked the Gotways I have owned.  I never worry about cutouts at high speed, because I just don't have a need to push it that hard.  Been reliable for me in every other way.  Hopefully that will continue.  The large footplates on the Msuper and ACM were a big draw for me.  Very comfortable unlike others I have ridden.

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3 minutes ago, SeattleAbarth said:

If the Gotway ACM 16+ has a brown out or failure point due to hardware design.  There should be some audible indicator imo. As well, as it should NOT be cutting out at mid-range.  

IE:
I pushed my ninebot one E+,  it was beeping.. i ignored it..  kept on the forward tilt to sustain.  and it shutoff on me.  That is human error.  But the device warned me.


IMO Manufacture Liability:
If i'm at 'stated supported speed'.  Be it 10mph, 20mph. or even the listed "30mph".  If the device is hitting a battery temp, motor temp, voltage workload.  As a driver, i should receive some type of indicator, audible and if not tilt back (i've had it where it just beeps and there is no tilt back).   To indicate i am near a limit, due to some factor.

^^^ if that safety design is not baked in.  Somebody WILL get hurt, and will fire off a class action lawsuit.   Because some people use these for commuting in the USA.  (quite a bit here in Seattle).

I would akin it to, your car just dying.. with no CEL/check engine light.  Or  my bike wheel just suddenly coming off (they built in hooks and tensioners these days just incase btw).

I hope they squash whatever mosfet/power issue they are having.. from what i've read, it's something to due with mosfet burnout, at higher speed rates. which means something with current and circuit degradation is how i'm interrupting that,.

I know i'm the new guy.  but iv'e been drifting for 22years... i've slid an 81chevette, 240sx, ae86, miata na, rx8, Wifes Chrysler Pacifica, and my Ducati 1098.  I hope to be able to drift a wheel sometime..  but if i can safely ride it at the limit, i'll have to find one that does.

Which is why i got the NB1E+  for durabilty, and reliability.   I'd be pissed if one flaked out on my kid. but we wear gear when in public. unless we are just going to the school and park.

i'll stop my rant.  I still want the ACM 16+.. but if the reliability isn't sorted by next month i'll just continue searching.
 

You may be reading old posts, I don't know. But except for the very rare occurrence I'm not aware of any Mosfet/power issues with the ACM (or MSuper and Monster). And the Gotway wheels come from the factory with all the alarms enabled and tilt-back enabled. They are extremely safe in the as-shipped configuration.

However, Gotway treats us adults and lets the user disable the various safety features. Every high speed Gotway failure that you've seen would not occur if the wheel was operating in the as-shipped configuration.

And the people who've had high speed cut-outs had the wheel screaming at them (beep beep beep beep beep beep) but they continued to push on. Just like your case with the Ninebot. It's the users choice to ignore the safety mechanism.

Buy an ACM V2s+. You'll love it. I just passed 600 miles on mine :thumbup:

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50 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

However, Gotway treats us adults and lets the user disable the various safety features.

Meaning the aircraft manufacturer that let the pilot turn off a feature which avoids crashing the plane treats the pilot "as adult"? Is being "treated as adult" a euphemism for being enabled to endanger others or perform criminal acts? I have the feeling I am opposed to treating people as adults under these terms.

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4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

There's a video someplace that shows a guy riding an EUC great distances (dozens of feet) without power. I guess if you practice it can be done.

I would tend to qualify that some people can do it if they practice. I think it's pretty difficult and I would not be surprised if quite some people are not able to learn riding a unicycle with neither pedals nor motor. Even with pedals it's far more difficult than with a motor.

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7 minutes ago, Mono said:

Meaning the aircraft manufacturer that let the pilot turn off a feature which avoids crashing the plane treats the pilot "as adult"? Is being "treated as adult" a euphemism for being enabled to endanger others or perform criminal acts? I have the feeling I am opposed to treating people as adults under these terms.

I don't know if you're aware of the fact that many of the safety features in an aircraft cockpit can be turned off. Criminal acts???

There are two type; those that what to be protected from themselves and those who want the freedom to do as they like. I thank God that Gotway doesn't hamstring their wheels like KingSong and others.

I truly believe that Gotway makes the safest wheel made today, depending on how you configure it to operate. You can make it behave just like a Ninebot if you want. You have the power.

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5 minutes ago, Mono said:

Meaning the aircraft manufacturer that let the pilot turn off a feature which avoids crashing the plane treats the pilot "as adult"? Is being "treated as adult" a euphemism for being enabled to endanger others or perform criminal acts? I have the feeling I am opposed to treating people as adults under these terms.

One the one hand, I see where you're coming from.  But on the other hand, not taking sides one way or the other ... we're pretty much always enabled both to endanger others and perform criminal acts, with a virtually limitless variety of things we deal with every day, whether malice is involved or not.

I admire the focus on making EUC's safer in a way that goes beyond merely the rider's safety, though.

A little while ago a guy here was almost angrily saying there is no need for a powerful EUC, and it would certainly endanger other people besides the rider.  I responded that I'm a big guy who lives in a very hilly area and plans to ride mostly on park and country trails, so I really love the idea of extra power and find it necessary.to serious consideration of a purchase at all.  Plus I really do like the idea of extra power so I can reduce the chance of cut-outs.

I'm not saying Gotway shouldn't do their job, though.  Just noting that arguments about safety and power can sometimes veer into extremes quickly.  

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I'd personally prefer safety features that save my ass from my dumb mistakes. But that's just me.

This might be my favorite video of all time, and it's how I imagine most Gotways are assembled.

 

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8 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I'd personally prefer safety features that save my ass from my dumb mistakes. But that's just me.

This might be my favorite video of all time, and it's how I imagine most Gotways are assembled.

 

Oh God, that video was great :roflmao: It's hard to believe it's not a joke (is it). They are filming this like they are proud. So funny.

I'll keep saying it, the Gotway wheels are extremely safe. Just don't turn off the safety features - is that too much to ask?

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5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I prefer Choice

I think the apple - android example is a bit far away!

I would prefer choice all all the day long, if it doesnt go about safety...

I would also have nothing against the way GW is doing it...if they would CLEARLY inform/document the "normal" customer about their "freedom of choice"......

But as they do nothing like this....its no choice for me...its just : let the stupid user fail.....

You and me and 2/3 of this forum know how to handle their "ffreedom of choice"....but the 1/3 "normal or first" user, which have no clue how the GW wheel behave at "end" speed....are that which have to take the consequences.....and that would be so easy to change.....

just implement this tiltback at 80%.....even if it is optional, so that an experienced user can close it...and so much would be done for safety for there wheels!

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12 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

I think the apple - android example is a bit far away!

I would prefer choice all all the day long, if it doesnt go about safety...

I would also have nothing against the way GW is doing it...if they would CLEARLY inform/document the "normal" customer about their "freedom of choice"......

But as they do nothing like this....its no choice for me...its just : let the stupid user fail.....

You and me and 2/3 of this forum know how to handle their "ffreedom of choice"....but the 1/3 "normal or first" user, which have no clue how the GW wheel behave at "end" speed....are that which have to take the consequences.....and that would be so easy to change.....

just implement this tiltback at 80%.....even if it is optional, so that an experienced user can close it...and so much would be done for safety for there wheels!

I certainly can't argue with the need for much better documentation.

I'm picking up my new MSuper V3s+ this weekend. It's been awhile, so I'm going to confirm how it's configured out-of-the-box.

The 1/3 first time users will use the wheel as it's configured from the factory. If tilt-back is set appropriately low, does that not do what you hope for?

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2 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

One the one hand, I see where you're coming from.  But on the other hand, not taking sides one way or the other ... we're pretty much always enabled both to endanger others and perform criminal acts, with a virtually limitless variety of things we deal with every day, whether malice is involved or not.

Sure, there is lots of dangers and crimes all over the place. That seems not to serve too well as an argument though as to why we wouldn't want to prevent these if possible.

Quote

I admire the focus on making EUC's safer in a way that goes beyond merely the rider's safety, though.

A little while ago a guy here was almost angrily saying there is no need for a powerful EUC, and it would certainly endanger other people besides the rider.  I responded that I'm a big guy who lives in a very hilly area and plans to ride mostly on park and country trails, so I really love the idea of extra power and find it necessary.to serious consideration of a purchase at all.  Plus I really do like the idea of extra power so I can reduce the chance of cut-outs.

The problem here is the mistake to equate power with danger. I can understand arguments against power limits. Arguments against any regulation though are beyond unintelligible.

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

There are two type; those that what to be protected from themselves and those who want the freedom to do as they like.

I would care less if it was only the riders killing themselves. I am all for your right to kill yourself. There is an argument to be made though that it shouldn't be too easy to kill oneself. Generally, less killing makes the world a better place, choice or not. And dead bodies give EUCs a bad reputation. I am digressing.

The point remains, if a wheel can cut out due to overspeed then casual bystanders are endangered as well.

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