After my last fall, I'm no longer convinced Solowheel is the best EUC. Recommendations?

[Scatcat]

On 2017-06-14 at 11:59 PM, vgambit said:

Me IRL:

 

The impression I got from browsing the forums and checking elsewhere online late last year was that the Solowheel was expensive, but was the only "legit" EUC, as the rest were all "cheap knockoffs" that had rough handling, whereas the Solowheel had smooth handling due to better-engineered balancing algorithms and such. I thought that the other brands were more popular simply because they were cheaper, and people didn't mind the comparatively rough handling. I also had concerns about battery fires and explosions, that were never the case with Solowheels, but sometimes were with these other brands.

I thought I had to charge this thing so damn frequently because larger batteries were dangerous or something. Nope, just a tiny battery (though the airline restriction is real, from what I understand). 

 

It seems my ideal wheel, now, would look something like the following, compared to a Solowheel Xtreme:

More than 200 Wh battery capacity
Highest possible max speed with an option to software-lock it to tilt back at 10-15 mph (so even if I jam on the accelerator near max speed like a scrub, instead of running out of torque, cutting off, and flinging me, it just strongman lifts me up anyway)
Extendable handle to walk it around instead of having to heft it (which is the sole reason why the weight was a problem, really)
Decently strong magnets in the pedals, so I can easily fold them up with my feet when done instead of this delicate placing nonsense I'm dealing with daily
A quick charger that doesn't have ear-piercing coil whine noise when the wheel is fully charged
An actually useful, informative app
The ability to go up steep hills, even at half charge (and do so at a decent clip, instead of a snail's pace, in an effort to prevent the same sort of torque fall)
An option to automatically stop charging before full capacity is reached, so it can go downhill and brake sharply immediately instead of having to run the battery down a bit first
A more accessible tire valve for re-inflation as tire pressure decreases over time
 

Hell, maybe I should get one of the crazy dual-wheel models. Ostensibly, I'd be able to navigate stop and go pedestrian traffic without having to fully stop and plant a foot on the ground. 

DON'T go for a dual wheel, I have one. As said here, they're squirrely as h*ll if you go on uneven ground, and you have to lean with the surface when the surface has a sideways lean. While you can learn to handle all this, it takes some of the fun out of cruising.

I own a Rockwheel GT16, which has a reputations as a "crazy wheel". 2000W nominal motor which peaks well up in the 3600W+ range. The "craziness" with the wheel is that it won't stop you from going 35mph, smiling all the way up to cut-off... But as i seldom go more than 20mph, the craziness for me is slightly overrated - I even set the first alarm there, to remind me that I've lost the sense of speed.

The Solowheel Xtreme, when I look at it, seems like an overpriced piece of junk. Sure it's over-engineered in a way we ask the other makers to mimic, but it's a bit of the case of putting lipstick on a pig.

Before any Solowheel fan flames me, as I see it the Solowheel Xtreme fails in two very significant aspects:

• Enough motor power to have a sizeable reserve in reasonable usage situations. I.e. speeds below 15mph and non-extreme hills and terrain.
• Enough battery juice to actually feed that motor without over-discharging and get a battery cut-out, and without having to walk your wheel home if you go beyond the immediate neighbourhood.

My list for shopping a wheel is alike, but slightly different from yours:

• I won't go below 680Wh, preferably above 800Wh.
• I won't go below 800W nominal in the motor, preferably 1200W+, with peak powers well into the 2500W+ range.
• I want to be able to set speed warnings and tilt-back myself.
• I want a usable trolley.

A charger that can stop before the batteries are full is a nice thing, but there are aftermarket solutions available for that. No factory apps, not even Inmotion's app is truly good. They're just at different levels of bad. Inmotion's app may be better than most, but the Rockwheel app has most of the crucial functions too, as does Gotway. They're just quirky and unpolished, with scary bad translations and chinese mixed in here and there where the developer couldn't be bothered.

There are a lot of wheels that probably would fit your bill. Both Kingsong and the Gotway wheels would be a serious step up. But I would try to find some way to try before you buy, as the system shock might be scary

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

On 2017-06-15 at 2:04 PM, houseofjob said:

Theoretically, yes.

 

But in the real world, at least in my experience, it's been really hard to overlean wheels that are above 800W nominal, esp. the new 84V wheels. 

The same hard accelerations that I do regularly on my 84V 2000W nominal Rockwheel GT16 and my 84V 1500W nominal Gotway Monster now, would result in overlean cutouts on my previous 800W nominal and lower powered wheels I've owned in the past.

I think the OP was at a pretty high cruising speed when he tried to accelerate quickly.  With those wheels that you mentioned, are they all able to handle a sharp acceleration demand even at higher speeds?  Or would they tiltback/warn you even with a sudden forwards lean?  I've only ridden my Ninebot and generic so I'm curious whether the OP's expectations might be exceeding his future wheel's capabilities or whether those wheels would be able to handle things as long as he's not too close to the maximum cut out speed?

[Scatcat]

1 minute ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I think the OP was at a pretty high cruising speed when he tried to accelerate quickly.  With those wheels that you mentioned, are they all able to handle a sharp acceleration demand even at higher speeds?  Or would they tiltback/warn you even with a sudden forwards lean?  I've only ridden my Ninebot and generic so I'm curious whether the OP's expectations might be exceeding his future wheel's capabilities or whether those wheels would be able to handle things as long as he's not too close to the maximum cut out speed?

I can only speak for the Rockwheel GT16, and it reacts instantly at 20mph and I weigh in at approx 204 lbs. I can't attest for speeds higher than that, as I avoid going faster for very long...  

[UKJ]

On 6/15/2017 at 3:34 AM, Marty Backe said:

I'm pretty sure those axles cracked because guerrillas where riding them and doing lots of curb jumping. I'm pretty sure we both have the same KS14C and mine shows no sign of undue wear. I avoid big drops whenever possible. 

I must respectfully disagree to set at least the record straight concerning my beloved KS14C and to inform others.

I did not jump curbs, no drops taken, and am not heavy at 75 kilos and my axle went bad anyway!

And also did not ever get over the hip pain hurting stage to ride one foot, still not, so this might have also added stress even for super short periods of time, but it sure seems ANY EUC should be able to handle one foot riding for extended periods of time!

I just advise all those with maybe even ANY E U C, but for sure any KS14C, to check the spacing between the pedal supports "pillars"?

and the wheel, motor sides.

AND STOP RIDING IF YOU HEAR ANY SCRAPING SOUND AND CHECK AS SAID ABOVE!

It also could be very well true that some axles are and will remain just fine, while others fail.

I am VERY interested to see how my warranty replacement axle holds up?

ukj

[LanghamP]

3 hours ago, UKJ said:

 

It also could be very well true that some axles are and will remain just fine, while others fail.

 

My understanding with how metal works is the axle must fail if it flexes enough times.

I am well over 100kg, so I expect my wheel to fail within 2000 miles. I might replace the axel, or more likely just buy the newer model KS14 with the thicker axel and built in trolley.

[Dingfelder]

56 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

My understanding with how metal works is the axle must fail if it flexes enough times.

I am well over 100kg, so I expect my wheel to fail within 2000 miles. I might replace the axel, or more likely just buy the newer model KS14 with the thicker axel and built in trolley.

I would feel very disappointed with a machine that failed so catastrophically within a couple of thousand miles.

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

I would feel very disappointed with a machine that failed so catastrophically within a couple of thousand miles.

I'm sure you'll experience that when your MSuper comes. 

[Dingfelder]

14 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I'm sure you'll experience that when your MSuper comes. 

It had better be on my 200 dollar machine rather than my 2000 machine.

[US69]

Some words to the 14c "axle" problems...

Yes, there were several axle failures on older models, the 14c has gone (at least) through 3 iterations....

On newer Models, the axle problems have bin resolved so that there is no way to speak from "several/often" anymore.

Yes, still on the newer models, or on 16B's "sometime" there can be a breakage, but its no "systematic fault" anymore.

from my experience: if you ever, ever hear any sounds from your pedals when mounting, or under heavy load, like a plastic crackling /gnarcing....there is a good chance that one of the pedalarm holding bolts, which secures the pedalarm to the axle, has become loose! This bolts getting loose, are putting an much higher stress on the axle as normal...it means that on every movement the pedalarm is working against axle and shell! And weakening the axle!

Then it is hurry time for maintenance and securing this bolts again!

When the Pedalarm scatches against the wheel while driving...chances are high, it has come to a point where it is to late and the axle is allready broken or deformed and just in a happy case the bolts are just ultra loose! 

So main Point: Listen to your wheel!

On all newer KS models, 14d, 16s, 18s the axles again should have been overworked, but this is just a statement of KS employees, and i personally havent seen one in real life.....but AFAIK there is no report of axle problems on newer models known until now....

And btw: Axle breakage is possible on every wheel...GW, IM...its just that these wheels have other/bigger problems which are under the spotlight ;-)

[Mono]

20 hours ago, LanghamP said:

My understanding with how metal works is the axle must fail if it flexes enough times.

I guess so, but it makes all the difference whether "enough times" means 1000 or hundred million. We can build metal bridges which live for decades and withstand millions of vehicles traveling over them. I don't think that the axle of an EUC needs ever to be a point of failure. If it is, it was IMHO just lazy or careless engineering.

[esaj]

13 minutes ago, Mono said:

If it is, it was IMHO just lazy or careless engineering.

Lazy and/or careless engineering in our wheels? Noo, that has never happened...  

[Scatcat]

4 minutes ago, esaj said:

Lazy and/or careless engineering in our wheels? Noo, that has never happened...  

Actually... Yeah there is a certain lackadaisical attitude towards QC as well as stress testing designs.

But I think we tend to miss one of the reasons for that attitude. I really don't think it's a "we don't care as long as we sell" thing, more like "we need to get this out now, or we'll go bust" thing. Quite a few of these manufacturers operate on a shoe-string compared to what we're used to, they're startups in an environment where the sharks are circling the boat. I doubt even the larger manufacturers have a serious amount of reserve capital if the fecal matter hits the rotating impeller.

To some extent we have to go as far back as the first and second industrial revolutions in Europe and the US, to really get what's going on. The era of the rail-road and industrial tycoons, where you'd either get rich or eat your gun failing. Where working conditions or quality was a far second to productivity; Where a person like Edison got rich of his patents, while Tesla died a pauper after selling his far too cheaply.

The reasoning for such an idiocy as too narrow axles would then be something like "if it's good enough for bikes, it should be good enough for unicycles"... Totally missing that while a bicycle spreads the force between two larger spoked wheels with some distance between them, a unicycle hitting an obstacle gets the full force - without any form of suspension or even spokes to dampen the impact. That means the same axles that can go decades on a bicycle without any tendency to fatigue, will risk failure in a year or two on an EUC if the rider weighs more than 70-75 kg and routinely goes of even low curbs.

I think this actually came as a bit of a shock for both Kingsong, GW, Rockwheel, Inmotion and all the others. They should have realised, but probably didn't. Now that they know, they realise in turn, that re-engineering the axle means going non-standard, which will cut into their margins. They'll probably do it anyway, eventually, since the last manufacturer doing it will be up the proverbial human waste creak without a paddle.

If for example two out of the big manufacturers would go to 25mm axles, or do a serious rethink, like in the picture.

Then the ones left, would find their customers fleeing at the speed of light, as soon as the concept was proven to work.

[meepmeepmayer]

6 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

from my experience: if you ever, ever hear any sounds from your pedals when mounting, or under heavy load, like a plastic crackling /gnarcing....there is a good chance that one of the pedalarm holding bolts, which secures the pedalarm to the axle, has become loose! This bolts getting loose, are putting an much higher stress on the axle as normal...it means that on every movement the pedalarm is working against axle and shell! And weakening the axle!

Then it is hurry time for maintenance and securing this bolts again!

Oh great. Now every tiny creak my ACM does will make me worried the axle nut is loose

How can you check? Just open the sides and see if something is loose?

[vgambit]

On 6/16/2017 at 7:16 PM, Marty Backe said:

No. That is a complaint with some people. However, the wheel is so tall the trolley handle might be awkward to use.

I agree, you don't want to carry the wheel, and you'll never carry a KS18.

The 18" MSuper wheel has a nice (I think) trolley handle.

Since you are considering the KS18 I don't see why you don't also consider the MSuper. It's more compact yet has all the power (for safety) that anyone could want. And it has that trolley handle.

After thinking about safety lately I've come to the conclusion that the Gotway wheels are extremely safe if you configure them so. You can configure the MSuper so that it won't go faster than 15mph, yet it has amazing amounts of power reserve. So it would never cut-out on you when you encounter some obstacles that require a surge in power.

I wish I had a way of test-riding both the KS18S and the MSuper V3S+. Based on what I've read, there are really strong arguments for both wheels. 

[LanghamP]

8 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

 /gnarcing....there is a good chance that one of the pedalarm holding bolts, which secures the pedalarm to the axle, has become loose! This bolts getting loose, are putting an much higher stress on the axle as normal...it means that on every movement the pedalarm is working against axle and shell! And weakening the axle!

Then it is hurry time for maintenance and securing this bolts again!

 

If the problem is loose bolts, then can't I red locktite those bolts in to prevent these axel occurances?

[US69]

3 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

If the problem is loose bolts, then can't I red locktite those bolts in to prevent these axel occurances?

Yes, red Lockrufe is often use in this case!!!

[US69]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Oh great. Now every tiny creak my ACM does will make me worried the axle nut is loose

How can you check? Just open the sides and see if something is loose?

NAaaah....not every tiny creak is meant ;-)

but if you have a steady gnawing.....especially on mounting/starting ....or when you brake heavy, have the load direction change....

 

to to check then is not that easy....you have to pull out the wheel under the shell....

see kingsong Tyre change video! No need to dissasemlbe the complete shell....

[meepmeepmayer]

Merci. I've decided my ACM is fine then

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, vgambit said:

I wish I had a way of test-riding both the KS18S and the MSuper V3S+. Based on what I've read, there are really strong arguments for both wheels. 

Where are you located?

People should put more information in their profile so other local riders can discover each other and coordinated group rides. For instance, if you were in Southern California you could attend a group ride and get a chance to see a variety of wheels.