esaj Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 13 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: Esaj...I'm sending out my new motor for your expert analysis. That's a waste of a (possibly, probably) perfectly good motor, I wouldn't know how to test it apart from whether the hall-sensors give out a signal or not Also, would everyone please stop calling me an "expert" on anything, I think it's degrading to the real experts 13 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: This whole thing is very unsettling! We need some definitive answers immediately! I agree, unfortunately there's not much info to go with yet, not even sure how the fault can be reproduced... apparently it has occurred when going over bumps / potholes, possibly only at high speed, but does it even then occur always? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, esaj said: Also, would everyone please stop calling me an "expert" on anything, I think it's degrading to the real experts You do have a special skill set that is valuable on this forum but I will refrain from using the term. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Just speculation, but I wonder whether their change to a thicker motor wiring may have inadvertantly created a new problem. Without a change in bearing size and axle wire channel diameter, their motor supplier might have been forced to thread thicker wiring through the axle channel. If they didn't spend extra time like @Rehab1 did to smoothen out any metal spurs or edges or use a lubricant to aid in wire movement, some wires may have their insulation compromised resulting in electrical shorts. Is there a wire bundle protective tubing present that goes through the axle channel with the wires? The thinner hall effect sensor wiring might be more susceptible to damage. One other possibility might be that during assembly they are having a tougher time threading the wiring through possibly stressing hall effect sensor legs so they may be breaking or contacting neighboring legs? There doesn't appear to be a supporting PCB board for the sensors judging by @Rehab1's photos. A bump during lower speed riding may be enough to create electrical contact if those sensor legs are not insulated or supported properly. Soldering wires directly to sensor legs without a supporting PCB never made sense to me considering how frail the legs can be. Even cheaper wheels have been seen to include a small mounted PCB board that acts as an intermediate junction point between sensor and wiring. It would be interesting to see a video of the motor assembly process. That was my fist thought on this problem reports. kv factor changed because of the wiring (turns). This is all speculation. We need to wait that Lin looks in to the problem and that they can reproduce the problem. Hopefully they learn from this issue and change the way to drive QA. There mst be a change in this business. GotWay receives the motor as a unit from the supplier. By proper QA they would have testing of a defined number of each batch rgarding specification and required test results.. Edited June 13, 2017 by OliverH 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Rehab1 said: Are we certain that this is just a Gotway MSuper motor issue? My new ACM motor has a 1705 prefix! If you would start riding that thing you'll be able to give us a first hand account as to it's reliability. I'll be waiting for your first report 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Has anybody of the affected riders had a look at their motor cables? Usually I'd think this is a very far fetched theory, but with @Hunka Hunka Burning Love's psychic abilities maybe this is it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) Not to disparage my psychic abilities, but I would first try to rule out any obvious issues with the control board and connectors first before opening up the motor. I think part of the issue is that people may be reporting these failures, but Gotway may not have the units back in their hands to do a full tear down to see what the issue is. Users likely aren't mailing their wheels all the way back to China so it could be up to the dealers to try to figure things out or wait until the units are returned to Gotway for analysis. Sorry I didn't mean to try to incite panic as it might not even be related to the motor. I was just trying to correlate what changes may have occurred and relate them to the problems being encountered. I just like to stir the pot up a bit. I see that KingSong runs their wheels on a test jig to ensure they are functioning, but I wonder whether a "real world" simulator that bumps the wheels every now and then as they are running might help discover any weak spots. Edited June 13, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 As far as I see it: new firmware that is causing the issues somehow batch of bad supplier parts the cable thing So not too many possibilities really... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: If you would start riding that thing you'll be able to give us a first hand account as to it's reliability. I'll be waiting for your first report The ACM would have been done by now but some forum member decided to post this long GW wish list. Actually I am just waiting on a mini usb connector for the bluetooth amp. The company that sold the amp forgot the usb power cable and it is a bastard size. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said: As far as I see it: new firmware that is causing the issues somehow batch of bad supplier parts the cable thing So not too many possibilities really... Or Bad woo woo in the yu lu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Or Bad woo woo in the yu lu Rule number one of EUC manufacturing - never discount the power of "Bad woo woo" in the "yu lu" during design and assembly. I think a big challenge here is for manufacturers to design and build these wheels for rugged stress situations. Users are going to ride these wheels off-road and crash them with wipe-outs. Imagine taking your laptop and toss it out the window of your car at 22 kph and expect it to continue functioning every time that happens. Without any suspension components other than the tire and inner tube, everything is subject to jarring motions and vibrations as the EUC travels over various surfaces. If everyone were to only ride over level polished concrete and never crash their wheel accidentally, a lot of these problems likely wouldn't occur. Imagine how long your car would last if you removed the shocks and springs, drove it off-road, and crashed it every so often. Maybe a sample of each new wheel should be put through rugged drop testing, repeated rough terrain simulation riding, wet weather conditions, etc to help manufacturers identify weaks spots before they end up being a problem. Edited June 13, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchet Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 7 hours ago, Marty Backe said: I'm just having a little fun here, but you do realize that KingSong is Chinese too? I'm well aware. My point is that all we have is Chinese /Korean manufacturers, so if KS decide to go the way of pushing the safety angle, they could definitely take advantage of Gotway's lack thereof, or perceived lack of QA or safety (fair or not). For now, IMO only, Gotway is the only real choice for wheels on the market. KS is a close second. Again, i'm new to the EUC world, but that's my impression so far. The other companies need to step it up to compete with Gotway (benefiting us all), and maybe going hard towards safety and reliability will drive sales for KS thereby forcing Gotway to put QA up there with power and range as important features. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Rule number one of EUC manufacturing - never discount the power of "Bad woo woo" in the "yu lu" during design and assembly. I think a big challenge here is for manufacturers to design and build these wheels for rugged stress situations. Users are going to ride these wheels off-road and crash them with wipe-outs. Imagine taking your laptop and toss it out the window of your car at 22 kph and expect it to continue functioning every time that happens. Without any suspension components other than the tire and inner tube, everything is subject to jarring motions and vibrations as the EUC travels over various surfaces. If everyone were to only ride over level polished concrete and never crash their wheel accidentally, a lot of these problems likely wouldn't occur. Imagine how long your car would last if you removed the shocks and springs, drove it off-road, and crashed it every so often. Maybe a sample of each new wheel should be put through rugged drop testing, repeated rough terrain simulation riding, wet weather conditions, etc. Exactly. Sometimes I'm amazed that they work at all considering that there are no mechanisms in place to reduce vibration. And seeing the inside of the motor (thanks @Rehab1) with the fragile sensor wires makes me nervous (if I allow myself to think about it) when I go over a bump. These wheels take an incredible amount of abuse. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 2 hours ago, esaj said: Are we certain that this is a motor issue at all? AFAIK, the motor codes were mentioned only as a way to identify wheels possibly having the fault, but whether the actual reason is in the motor, electronics or firmware seems totally uncertain at this point. exactly my understanding as well 2 hours ago, MichaelHensen said: I believe only the 84V wheels are affected.. that doesn't surprise me very much, it feels almost like I had predicted this when ranting about voltage changes 2 hours ago, Rehab1 said: This whole thing is very unsettling! We need some definitive answers immediately! I think the we need careful investigation rather than immediate answers. This takes time, as constructing reliable technology... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, Hatchet said: For now, IMO only, Gotway is the only real choice for wheels on the market. KS is a close second. Again, i'm new to the EUC world, but that's my impression so far. The Inmotions have their justification for the people who want thinner and sleeker wheels, but other than that I think you're spot on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) @Mono It might just be that virtually nobody buys 67V models now that the 84V are available, That's the impression I'm getting, a lot of dealers who added GW to their shops later or started after 84V availability don't even sell 67V msuper V3 and ACM. Edited June 13, 2017 by meepmeepmayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, Hatchet said: For now, IMO only, Gotway is the only real choice for wheels on the market. KS is a close second. I would say InMotion may currently be the only choice, unless you are willing to test a prototype. Ninebot and KingSong are probably next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Gotway maybe yes, but the latest KS models, would you really call them prototypes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) On 13/06/2017 at 11:41 PM, Marty Backe said: These wheels take an incredible amount of abuse. Quite true. I have beaten up my old Gotway for 3000km, to no avail, apart from a broken (but still functional) shell. But it may be at some point they have started to develop too many wheels too quickly. Edited August 5, 2017 by Mono 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 6 hours ago, Marty Backe said: As someone who's just about to receive their new MSuper I can't help but be a little nervous about receiving it. I can hardly wait until you get it and do a review. You will be one of the first to get one, and with your skills and experience will no doubt have an interesting ride video review. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Gotway maybe yes, but the latest KS models, would you really call them prototypes? I can't truly judge. I don't own one. The history of predictable failures and some design decision KS made leave me in suspense on that question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingfelder Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Does Gotway have a social presence anywhere? We know that they don't in the Western World, but how about in the East? I don't have a clue as to how Chinese businesses operate. In the West, any company that wants to be successful maintains a website and tries to get traction on social platforms. How do the Chinese operate? If they have the equivalent than some fellow EUC enthusiast who can speak the language should investigate a bit (web surf?) and let the community know what's happening. That's my dream anyway. I continue to be mystified how the whole EUC manufacturer community is a black hole to us. Weibo I think is the Chinese equivalent of Facebook. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rehab1 Posted June 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I think part of the issue is that people may be reporting these failures, but Gotway may not have the units back in their hands to do a full tear down to see what the issue is. I wonder how that works? It's not like GW is going to send out safety directives to owners asking them to return their wheels to the nearest authorized repair station to replace the defective part. 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: Exactly. Sometimes I'm amazed that they work at all considering that there are no mechanisms in place to reduce vibration. And seeing the inside of the motor (thanks @Rehab1) with the fragile sensor wires makes me nervous (if I allow myself to think about it) when I go over a bump. These wheels take an incredible amount of abuse. A great deal is riding on these tiny little hall sensors. The wires are so thin that they easily break. I guess you could say our lives are literally hanging by a thread. Edited June 13, 2017 by Rehab1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 13, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) I think Gotway is just going to review what may have changed during the production batch and see whether there are any weak spots on their end. They might even go as far as to open up a motor to see if there's any areas of improvement that can be made. I don't know if any dealers will be sending complete wheels back to them for analysis or not (likely not?) unless they are in China. Users who have failed wheels likely will get replacement parts starting with control boards as that's the cheapest option followed by motors if they determine that's the issue. Users likely will need to contact their dealers to get customer service just like with any issue. Hopefully the dealers will be able to determine the exact cause of failure. I just hope these are isolated incidents as a mass problem could be very troublesome for everyone. Edited June 13, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 48 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: I wonder how that works? It's not like GW is going to send out safety directives to owners asking them to return their wheels to the nearest authorized repair station to replace the defective part. A great deal is riding on these tiny little hall sensors. The wires are so thin that they easily break. I guess you could say our lives are literally hanging by a thread. The mitigating factor is their small mass - hopefully even with all the vibration and jarring that our wheels experience, the stress on the wires is very low. And that must be the case since we hear of so few hall sensor failures - usually only when someone tries to rewire their motor.Oops, did I say that 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 (edited) The Wheel Deal Australia recently posted this on FB. Both the 84v MSuper and ACMs are affected! ATTENTION gotway riders that have recently recieved gotway msuper 84v or acm 84v with motor codes starting with 1703 1704 and 1705 there has been a string of cut outs resulting in injurys recently on these models so take care. Will give more info for those effected as i am updated on the situation. So far there have been no 'monsters' effected but take care anyway until we have more information. Other gotway riders dont worry, it seems to be isolated to the 84v models made since late april. I recommend protective equipment especially a helmet. Ride safe and have fun Edited June 14, 2017 by Rehab1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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