Marty Backe Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 5 hours ago, craio said: Should i think it's odd that the number on the wheel is different than on the box? (or is one the number for the board and the other for the whole wheel). So far i only fell once, after trying to make a turn the wheel a pedal might have hit the ground and then went lef-right-left-right and ended up flying Not sure if this is oscillating but was practicing on moist grass so no bruises The firmware problem manifests itself ultimately with a cutout. What you describe is simply the affects of hitting the pedal on the ground. The 'oscillation' is a fraction of second in duration of a front-to-back motion before the wheel cuts out. Occurs when there is a surge in power demand as will occur when you hit a bump. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craio Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: The firmware problem manifests itself ultimately with a cutout. What you describe is simply the affects of hitting the pedal on the ground. The 'oscillation' is a fraction of second in duration of a front-to-back motion before the wheel cuts out. Occurs when there is a surge in power demand as will occur when you hit a bump. Ah, ok. Thought it wouldn't be something so trivial. Haven't tested riding on bumps yet, uneven grass for now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 13 minutes ago, craio said: Ah, ok. Thought it wouldn't be something so trivial. Haven't tested riding on bumps yet, uneven grass for now see my last post...i would also say that your board IS NOT in the time of problems... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craio Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Just now, KingSong69 said: see my last post...i would also say that your board IS NOT in the time of problems... Yes, I know and should have quoted/replied to you. I was just stating that i'm still in the process of learning how to handle the EUC on uneven terrain and haven't tried bumps yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Keith Posted August 17, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 17, 2017 7 hours ago, craio said: pedal might have hit the ground and then went lef-right-left-right and ended up flying Not sure if this is oscillating but was practicing on moist grass so no bruises No sort of electrical or electronic, or firmware fault can result in left-right oscillation as there is no power or control mechanism working in that plane. Only forwards-backwards is under the firmware's control. Mechanically a loose peddle or axle etc, might cause it, but it is far more likely to be caused by the nut on top of the wheel ? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demian B Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 (edited) On 8/9/2017 at 8:51 AM, WARPed1701D said: There was a post on here somewhere where someone reported a wheel "hiccup" if he tried to use it to soon after power up. The advice then was to wait and move the wheel back and forth before riding. I hope this is isolated. GotWay really need to invest in the tech to flash firmware via smartphone. I'd hate to think I'd have to replace my mainboard to resolve an issue like this. That was me! Fortunately, the problem hasn't occurred for a few weeks now. It still puts a seed of doubt in my mind, though. I haven't wheeled without elbow pads since the hiccups first appeared ?. I should add that I've never really rode off on the wheel immediately after powering up and the hiccups still happened. Edited August 18, 2017 by Demian B 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 On 8/9/2017 at 6:51 AM, WARPed1701D said: There was a post on here somewhere where someone reported a wheel "hiccup" if he tried to use it to soon after power up. The advice then was to wait and move the wheel back and forth before riding. I hope this is isolated. GotWay really need to invest in the tech to flash firmware via smartphone. I'd hate to think I'd have to replace my mainboard to resolve an issue like this. It also happened to me a couple of times with my first ACM. I never instantly jump on my wheels now. The inside word has it that Gotway is a bit paranoid about having their firmware stolen. So don't expect user update-able firmware anytime soon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaveCut Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 That is either dumb or lies of GW, because of the fact that if person or a group are able to reverse compiled firmware, then he are smart enough to dump the firmware down from the processor - he don't need to download any OTA blob or something to get the firmware. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craio Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 10 hours ago, Marty Backe said: It also happened to me a couple of times with my first ACM. I never instantly jump on my wheels now. The inside word has it that Gotway is a bit paranoid about having their firmware stolen. So don't expect user update-able firmware anytime soon The stick used for bluetooth is a pretty standard UART->BT and it's the same port used to connect the programmer to (as seen in posts by Jason). So can't be that hard to get the firmware out... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 6 hours ago, craio said: The stick used for bluetooth is a pretty standard UART->BT and it's the same port used to connect the programmer to (as seen in posts by Jason). So can't be that hard to get the firmware out... Yes, I've personally watched Jason flash two of my wheels. Whether it makes sense or not, the reality is, Gotway is paranoid about their firmware. When you're paranoid you do irrational things. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 17 hours ago, Marty Backe said: It also happened to me a couple of times with my first ACM. I never instantly jump on my wheels now. The inside word has it that Gotway is a bit paranoid about having their firmware stolen. So don't expect user update-able firmware anytime soon After your fall video on the brand new Msuper, I doubt they have anything to worry about from other manufacturers wanting to steal their firmware. If so many other makers (Ninebot, KingSong, InMotion) can provide updated firmware, I don't see why Gotway can't make up some encryption routine to secure their code. If someone really wanted it, I'm sure they could hack the MPU and reverse engineer / decompile it. Imagine a computer that doesn't allow you to update firmware without sending it back to the factory or needing a special device to do it? It just doesn't seem practical by any means just to protect one's IP. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 20 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: After your fall video on the brand new Msuper, I doubt they have anything to worry about from other manufacturers wanting to steal their firmware. If so many other makers (Ninebot, KingSong, InMotion) can provide updated firmware, I don't see why Gotway can't make up some encryption routine to secure their code. If someone really wanted it, I'm sure they could hack the MPU and reverse engineer / decompile it. Imagine a computer that doesn't allow you to update firmware without sending it back to the factory or needing a special device to do it? It just doesn't seem practical by any means just to protect one's IP. I agree with you, and I'm certainly not defending their position. It is funny when you think about it - who would want their firmware You've clearly never actually experienced the wonders of the Gotway app. Considering their capabilities in that arena I have my doubts about their ability to do encryption, etc. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Yes, I've personally watched Jason flash two of my wheels. After all of the issues with GW's software and the countless number of manhours involved to perform field maintenance I cannot fathom why Gotway would not initiate a complete paradigm shift and allow users to perform their own software updates. If GW needs to develop a new mainboard that allows users to personally install software updates like the majority of other wheel manufacturers, so be it. There are dozens of software updaters commercially available on the market that will either point you to a new software download or automatically download the update for you. If tens of thousands of companies trust this form of software update technology without being paranoid of someone hacking into and stealing their propriety programs, why not Gotway? Let's take a smartphone for example. You buy a smartphone and, after some time, a new update appears and you are personally allowed to add those new functions to your phone. They also provide an itinerary of what's included in the updates. In Gotway's case, they produce their EUCs, sell them to the public, and that's the end of the story. No end user software updates allowed unless you have access to their proprietary flash equipment or purchase a new maInboard. This has been the case to date. Going forward, if GW wants to improve their product line they must move beyond their current business model and provide user accessible software updates. This paradigm shift could greatly enhance the safety and value of Gotway's wheels and slow the momentum of their evaporating customer base. Edited August 18, 2017 by Rehab1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 23 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: After all of the issues with GW's software and the countless number of manhours involved to perform field maintenance I cannot fathom why Gotway would not initiate a complete paradigm shift and allow users to perform their own software updates. If GW needs to develop a new mainboard that allows users to personally install software updates like the majority of other wheel manufacturers, so be it. There are dozens of software updaters commercially available on the market that will either point you to a new software download or automatically download the update for you. If tens of thousands of companies trust this form of software update technology without being paranoid of someone hacking into and stealing their propriety programs, why not Gotway? Let's take a smartphone for example. You buy a smartphone and, after some time, a new update appears and you are personally allowed to add those new functions to your phone. They also provide an itinerary of what's included in the updates. In Gotway's case, they produce their EUCs, sell them to the public, and that's the end of the story. No end user software updates allowed unless you have access to their proprietary flash equipment or purchase a new maInboard. This has been the case to date. Going forward, if GW wants to improve their product line they must move beyond their current business model and provide user accessible software updates. This paradigm shift could greatly enhance the safety and value of Gotway's wheels and slow the momentum of their evaporating customer base. Amen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craio Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 (edited) Atleast it can't be hard to figure out the protocol gotway uses to do setup etc? I'll try making a sniffer cable this weekend to capture the datastream between the BT board and the mainboard. Maybe i can atleast get a decent app for it then cause it's annoying that you can set the mode and tiltback but can't see what is was... Unless not even that is send out of the mainboard? Edited August 19, 2017 by craio typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post zlymex Posted August 27, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) News on 25th Aug., GW recalled all the Mten3 sold in recent days(about 80 units) which experience similar oscillation problems above speed 25kph. I think I said this elsewhere in the forum that the oscillation is inherent in all the fast and hard-pedal EUCs(such as GW, RW, KS, 9bot) because they(the firmware) share the same origin with Solowheel and Segway. Segway possess this oscillation problems right from the start but only very low frequency(0.5-1Hz) because the pedal is very 'soft' . Edited August 27, 2017 by zlymex 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) @zlymex would you have any insider information as to how long of a process it is that Gotway takes to test out new products? For example, if they were test riding the Mten3 for a few weeks at various speeds, terrain, and rider weights, wouldn't this oscillation problem have been noticed before they gave the okay to mass produce units? It just seems to me that maybe they aren't spending enough trial time to thoroughly discover problems before releasing some of their products out to the public. I know some problems can be difficult to detect until longer tests are run (eg. Monster axle clamp bracket failures), but it just seems to make more sense to produce a small batch of wheels, and spend a few weeks testing them out to avoid hassles for everyone. Maybe even consider sending out sample wheels to people like @Marty Backe or trusted dealers to try out and report problems back as they would be more than keen to test the heck out of a new wheel and provide feedback. Everyone wants a reliable new wheel, dealers want to avoid ticking off customers and dealing with product returns (can anyone say let's return 72 electric scooters back to China?) and I think Gotway wants to build a good reputation for their new products so why not have more eyes and feet testing these new products out? If it's a secrecy thing, maybe have them sign a non-disclosure agreement? @Linnea Lin Gotway @Jane Mo Edited August 27, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: @zlymex would you have any insider information as to how long of a process it is that Gotway takes to test out new products? For example, if they were test riding the Mten3 for a few weeks at various speeds, terrain, and rider weights, wouldn't this oscillation problem have been noticed before they gave the okay to mass produce units? It just seems to me that maybe they aren't spending enough trial time to thoroughly discover problems before releasing some of their products out to the public. I know some problems can be difficult to detect until longer tests are run (eg. Monster axle clamp bracket failures), but it just seems to make more sense to produce a small batch of wheels, and spend a few weeks testing them out to avoid hassles for everyone. Maybe even consider sending out sample wheels to people like @Marty Backe or trusted dealers to try out and report problems back as they would be more than keen to test the heck out of a new wheel and provide feedback. Everyone wants a reliable new wheel, dealers want to avoid ticking off customers and dealing with product returns (can anyone say let's return 72 electric scooter back to China?) and I think Gotway wants to build a good reputation for their new products so why not have more eyes and feet testing these new products out? If it's a secrecy thing, maybe have them sign a non-disclosure agreement? @Linnea Lin Gotway @Jane Mo I'm out of reps, but I'll give you a high-five Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 2 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: @zlymex would you have any insider information as to how long of a process it is that Gotway takes to test out new products? That is product dependant. For Msuper V3, GW did send out several units to different areas in China to test for at least one month before final release. Unfortunately these tests were mild IMO that they didn't discover problems such as MOSFET burn down when in near stall situations. I didn't hear any test program like V3 for Monster/Mten3 probably because the former is heavy and expensive, and they use the same board. My prediction, the oscillation(may be severe or mild) and MOSFET burn down problems will be associated with GW EUCs for a very long time. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post meepmeepmayer Posted August 27, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2017 @Hunka Hunka Burning Love What you propose requires Western level competence/awareness, so... yeah. Good idea though Only company impressing me with their improvements in this regard (knowing what they are doing) is Kingsong. In another thread, how they could narrow down the details of how it happened that one of their wheels had a missing serial number, that was quite impressive. Gotway couldn't even properly keep track or say with certainty which of their wheels were affected by this oscillation thing. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Only company impressing me with their improvements in this regard (knowing what they are doing) is Kingsong. In another thread, how they could narrow down the details of how it happened that one of their wheels had a missing serial number, that was quite impressive. Gotway couldn't even properly keep track or say with certainty which of their wheels were affected by this oscillation thing. I'm also impressed with Kingsong's QC and crucial oversight of it's product line! The ability to track serial numbers & lot numbers is so important for manufacturers & distributors across numerous industries if they want to remain competitive. Tracking of goods serves a variety of purposes including quality control, service management, warranty management, product recalls and even theft deterrent. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: @Hunka Hunka Burning Love What you propose requires Western level competence/awareness, so... yeah. Good idea though Only company impressing me with their improvements in this regard (knowing what they are doing) is Kingsong. In another thread, how they could narrow down the details of how it happened that one of their wheels had a missing serial number, that was quite impressive. Gotway couldn't even properly keep track or say with certainty which of their wheels were affected by this oscillation thing. 1 hour ago, Rehab1 said: I'm also impressed with Kingsong's QC and crucial oversight of it's product line! The ability to track serial numbers & lot numbers is so important for manufacturers & distributors across numerous industries if they want to remain competitive. Tracking of goods serves a variety of purposes including quality control, service management, warranty management, product recalls and even theft deterrent. I just wish they would be more competitive with Gotway in term of performance. Then I would have no problem never buying another Gotway. But just as @zlymex predicts that we'll have MOSFET and oscillation problems for a very long time, we'll also have KingSong limitations for a very long time. It's an imperfect world! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Yep, I agree. The 18S/L is the only KS wheel I'm remotely considering because of the available battery sizes, and probably it would still lose out to the sketchy "old" Monster (if I even buy another wheel for that much money) simply because 2400Wh > 1680Wh. Also 40A fuses aren't going to be enough for significantly more serious mountain riding than possible with my ACM now Would have started an offroad EUC manufacturer yesterday if I had the money 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: Yep, I agree. The 18S/L is the only KS wheel I'm remotely considering because of the available battery sizes, and probably it would still lose out to the sketchy "old" Monster (if I even buy another wheel for that much money) simply because 2400Wh > 1680Wh. Also 40A fuses aren't going to be enough for significantly more serious mountain riding than possible with my ACM now Would have started an offroad EUC manufacturer yesterday if I had the money First: it is a wrong thought that Ks and GW use an identical firmware and so the same amps...amps pushed through an Ks are not that high... second: Ks18s board is secured by 60 Amp fuse...each Batterie pack is secured by another 40 amp fuse ( means a total draw on all packs of 120amps would be possible...if there wasn't the 60amp board fuse... a fellow Asian rider tested his 18s on 25degree/42percent hills...no prob at all...didn't even get hot :-) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Well, current = wattage/voltage so firmware can only do so much. But if the 18S indeed has a 60A fuse and can go forever below this (do you know the wiring thickness used?) then I'm suddenly very interestedThe 18L (I'd prefer a lower, wider wheel) can't come soon enough! Hnnng! Also, some money coming my way would be nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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