V8 Durability

[CaptainKBLS]

How durable are these EUs (the V8 in particular)?  It's a thousand bucks so I want it last as long as possible.  Generally, people change cars about 5 years.  How long can I expect this V8 to last?  I do not commute with it.  However I can't help but ride it for about 30min a day after work.  On weekends, it's possible that I will drain the battery both days.

I don't really have to ride the 30min daily if I can make it last longer.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you.

[Chriull]

7 hours ago, CaptainKBLS said:

How durable are these EUs (the V8 in particular)?  It's a thousand bucks so I want it last as long as possible.  Generally, people change cars about 5 years.  How long can I expect this V8 to last?  I do not commute with it.  However I can't help but ride it for about 30min a day after work.  On weekends, it's possible that I will drain the battery both days.

I don't really have to ride the 30min daily if I can make it last longer.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you.

The mechanics should last quite forever - a known weak spot of many wheels is the axle, but as far as i remember here was reported, that Inmotion does not use the "normal (bad)" axle design but has something better?

- to be on the safe side with the axle, one can avoid to jump down too high with the EUC and/or absorb the the impact by bending the knees.

The tire should have a lifetime of some 1000 kilometers - so nothing with a real impact on km cost/life expectancy.

Electronics should stay safe, too - imho there are ?not too many/no? reports of burned motherboards for Inmotion V8?

Main points in regard to burned motherboards (mostly mosfets) should be: *)

- long steep inclines at hot weather. Or starting many times up an incline, especially once the wheel was already burdened (high mb temperature)

- rocking back and forth: If one can do this quite well (soft direction/speed changes) the wheel should take it with no probs, but if one performs this (especially as beginner) with abrubt speed/direction changes, it can be a perfect way to destroy an EUC...

- strong braking: here where many reports of burned motherboards after a strong braking maneuver some time ago (once the high power wheels came out). Imho these reports stopped (?because the manufacturers improved the design - or i did not get them?)

Most of this cases come from not sufficiend cooling, which is one of the major design probs of the wheels. Imho no actual wheel can dissipate the heat at max load - but they get better and better. But again, imho there where no/not much reports of overload/overheating probs with the inmotion V8.

And if a motherboard dies by some bad luck - for some 100-200  bucks it can be replaced and this should be a very rare event.

So last but not least there are the batteries:

Assuiming your 30 min after work ride is about half the battery capacity and by average you get one full discharge every weekend thats about 3,5 discharge cycles a week and so ~180 discharge cycles a year.

In the worst case one has only about 300-500 discharge cycles. So this would make up to a battery lifetime of ~1.6-2.7 years - and after that the battery is not dead immedeately but has something ~70% of the original capacity. A new battery for your Inmotion cost $348 from one online shop.

This discharge cycles can be greatly improved by charging to a lesser voltage instead of 4,2 Volt per cell:

4,15V: 400-700 discharge cycles, 90-95% battery capacity available

4,10V: 600-1000 discharge cycles, 85-90% battery capacity available

...

This lower max voltage can be achieved by using something like the charge doctor (http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/5972-charge-doctor-for-inmotion/)

 

More details to this can be found at http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Additionally the batteries should be stored at a charge level of ~40% and low temperatures to increase lifetime: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_store_batteries.

So after a long post without an answer to your question  it could be quite feasable that you can drive your inmotion v8 for this 5 years you mentioned without any prob. Maybe you take a new battery pack after 3-4 years (depending about your milage and battery treatment).

*) Edit: This motherboard "burdens" should normally inflict a warning (beeps, tiltback) first, then a cut-off and only in exceptional/rare cases in a burned mb.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Chriull

[Mono]

See also

I am (not) looking forward to have to change the tire once (possibly twice) within the first 10000km on my V8. On a minor note, the pedal surface grip tape has barely lasted for 1000km and the shell is broken (but still functional) without that I could remember any major impact.

Using the charge doctor, charging usually below 90% and keeping charge below 70% while storing, I expect the battery to last at least 2500 x 400Wh = 1000kWh, which is more than 50000km. I fear that the bearings will become the first major problem to solve before that. On the other hand, in five years from now with 20000km on the wheel, it is quite likely that I will buy a new wheel and the V8 will remain functional but rest in piece, as two other wheels already do. 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Mono

[Keith]

@Chriull excellent post covers everything perfectly.

@CaptainKBLS really the thing with batteries is to consider them as a consumable like fuel. For example my model helicopter treats batteries VERY badly drawing an average of 10C or more out of them (I.e. 10 times their capacity) such that the battery lasts for around 6 minutes in flight. With such aggressive full discharges and full charges I might only get 50 to 100 flights out of a battery. However the batteries cost around £50 so that works out at 50 pence to £1 per flight, plus 1or 2 pence for the electricity to charge them. Model Helicopter fuel costs around £25 for a 5 litre can and I would get at most 15 to 20 six minute flights out of a can so that costs £1:25 to £1:66 per flight. So when a battery no longer holds a good charge I've had my money's worth out of it.

Bottom line is EUC's put way less strain on the batteries and if treated well (as @Chriull has said above) will last some years before needing replacement so the resulting cost per mile will be very low.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Keith

[Mono]

2 hours ago, Chriull said:

The mechanics should last quite forever

You believe the bearings will last quite forever? I would expect them to be the first component to actually wear out, after the tire. Personally, I have seen only mechanics braking down on any of my EUCs, though nothing which couldn't have been fixed easily so far. 

[Keith]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

I would expect them to be the first component to actually wear out, after the tire. P

REALLY!!!!!!! When was the last time you replaced the bearings in you car?

A very heavy rider, dropping down kerbs all the time might well start to dent the balls/rollers against the bearing shell but that's no worst than a car wheel going over potholes. Of course if the manufacturer has used crap, cheap bearings they might not last long but I very much doubt that is the case with Inmotion?

To quote the advice for car wheels:

"Typically, you should check and maintain your wheel bearings every 25,000 to 30,000 miles. An average sealed wheel bearing lasts 85,000 to 100,000 miles although some can last as long as 150,000 miles.". That is one hell of a lot of EUC riding!

Edited June 1, 2017 by Keith

[CaptainKBLS]

WOW!  Thank you for the amazing responses.  You guys are awesome!

[Mono]

3 hours ago, Keith said:

REALLY!!!!!!! When was the last time you replaced the bearings in you car?

A very heavy rider, dropping down kerbs all the time might well start to dent the balls/rollers against the bearing shell but that's no worst than a car wheel going over potholes. Of course if the manufacturer has used crap, cheap bearings they might not last long but I very much doubt that is the case with Inmotion?

To quote the advice for car wheels:

"Typically, you should check and maintain your wheel bearings every 25,000 to 30,000 miles. An average sealed wheel bearing lasts 85,000 to 100,000 miles although some can last as long as 150,000 miles.". That is one hell of a lot of EUC riding!

Sure, one can build bearings that last 300000km. Yet I don't think that a reasonably expensive bicycle bearing lasts even close as long as a car bearing. Comparing car technology, which is running 50+ years on a big scale having a trillion(!) dollar per year market right now, with unicycle technology may easily lead you to wrong conclusions about longevity. I would be quite surprised if current EUC technology is closer to cars than to bicycles (but I am always happy to learn). I don't expect InMotion to use particularly cheap bearings, but even under this constraint I don't see any other component which would wear before. The same seems to remain to be true for todays cars: we expect to wear out several sets of bearings before we expect the motor to reach the end of its life cycle.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Mono

[Jason McNeil]

Speaking of bearings, did you know China still doesn't have the capability of making ballpoint pens?

Pen power: China closer to ballpoint success
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38566114

The problem was not the body of the pen, but the tip - the tiny ball that dispenses ink as you write. It might be something we take for granted, but making them requires high precision machinery and very hard, ultra-thin steel plates. Put simply, China's steel has not been good enough. And it has struggled to shape its pen tips accurately.

6 hours ago, Chriull said:

 But again, imho there where no/not much reports of overload/overheating probs with the inmotion V8.

I've got some statistical insights here  With the 230x V8s sold in the past nine months, we've only encountered only a single instance of MOSFET failure on a V8. The V8's control-board is rock solid. Second generation KS16 boards had a failure rate of 32% within the first six month—third generation, much improved, has been less than 2% failure rate per year.  

6 hours ago, Chriull said:

- to be on the safe side with the axle, one can avoid to jump down too high with the EUC and/or absorb the the impact by bending the knees.

Statistically speaking, is also manufacturer/supplier specific. I think KS 14Cs were the worst, if you're approaching the 100kg mark, you can be expect that your axle will fail within 2,000 miles. KS16's were better, but we still get the odd axle metal fatigue problem every now & then. These faults are usually manifested in symptoms where the pedal starts to scrape against the motor face-plate, so there's plenty of time before it actually fails. Once you get the motor out, there's typically a hairline fracture that causes the axle to bend a couple degrees. 

6 hours ago, Chriull said:

The tire should have a lifetime of some 1000 kilometers - so nothing with a real impact on km cost/life expectancy.

We've seen a good Kenda (or other hard compound) tire exceed 5,000km! Chaoyang tires are created of a softer rubber material & usually last for 2,000-3,000km.

Should get Inmotion or someone to sponsor an X-Prize for the the first person to exceed 100,000 on their Wheel. 

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Jason McNeil

[houseofjob]

IMHO as a former V8 owner and having taken apart most all the EUCs I've owned from every relevant manufacturer, there is no better built and designed EUC than the InMotions. I had no issues with durability whatsoever, besides the simple wear and tear aspects (griptape, shell scratches, etc.). My only gripes have been with top speed.

[LanghamP]

When we talk about axle failures are we talking about them wearing out or actual fractures and cracks?

[Mono]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

When we talk about axle failures are we talking about them wearing out or actual fractures and cracks?

The latter. It would be an interesting question whether these are usually fatigue or overload failures.

[meepmeepmayer]

15 hours ago, CaptainKBLS said:

I don't really have to ride the 30min daily if I can make it last longer.

What's the point of having a EUC and not using it when you feel like it?

Enjoy, and if it really fails in a few years, there will be shiny new models to choose from.

[LanghamP]

4 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

 

Statistically speaking, is also manufacturer/supplier specific. I think KS 14Cs were the worst, if you're approaching the 100kg mark, you can be expect that your axle will fail within 2,000 miles. 

 

Uh oh, I'm well over 100kg and I just bought a KS14c (impulse buy I know).

Despite the axle, I say this is a really nice wheel. I mean, really really nice. I only have around 20 miles on it but I already like it much more than my Inmotion V5F+ which I also like a lot.

Somebody said the KS14c is his workhorse and I agree with that. I think it's the motor. It feels like the motor works faster to balance me. I think a fast and powerful motor does wonders to balance a heavy person like me. I don't have to push the wheel around as much as drag it and the motor is powerful enough to climb over imperfections on its own.

If it weren't for the weak axel, then the big motor, big batteries, and small size make this the most suitable wheel for me. If you're heavy and there's hills around then having a big battery is a godsend.

Is the axel easy to replace or, preferably, to reinforce? Despite having bought this as a second wheel I see myself using it extensively. It crushes hills like you won't believe.

[Jason McNeil]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

Is the axel easy to replace or, preferably, to reinforce?

No, the whole motor needs to be replaced. It's a good Wheel, if only KS had addressed the axle & overheating problems about a year earlier, it would have been a great Wheel!

Edited June 1, 2017 by Jason McNeil

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

No, the whole motor needs to be replaced. It's a good Wheel, if only KS had addressed the axle & overheating problems about a year earlier, it would have been a great Wheel!

Uuhh, what overheating problem? Lol maybe that's why these wheels were selling cheaper?!

Despite having bought this wheel as a kick-around wheel, I really like it. It has legs as in both range and power. The extra range is so nice.

But overheating?!

[Marty Backe]

It will overheat on very hot days if you're driving it hard. In California I can overheat it fairly easy by driving up steeper mountain trails. Mostly however, it doesn't overheat that much. BTW, when it overheats (~60+ degrees) the wheel will tilt-back aggressively and you'll have to give it a rest for a few minutes. My Pebble watch is very handy with my KS14C, allowing me to monitor the temperature real-time.

[Marty Backe]

On 5/31/2017 at 5:32 PM, CaptainKBLS said:

<snip>

I don't really have to ride the 30min daily if I can make it last longer.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Is your goal to have fun or to see how long you can make a wheel last?

Use it and enjoy the fun.

[CaptainKBLS]

LOL.

With a family of 5 I get the last bite, the last crumb, the last fun.  However since I love thing more than the family, I'll like it to last a bit due to the lower probably of easily replacing it.

Don't tell my wife I love it more than her :-)

[Demargon]

You can drive almost any vehicle like a crazy and wreck it in little time or care it in every ride and get it last forever. EUC are the same. The battery replacement comes cheaper every year, you can presume a big difference in his 5 years or more of life (if you ride careful)

Ride it nicely, not to fast, do slows accelerations/brakes, keep away from bumps, respect the advices of battery cares, and don't let it fall. You will enjoy daily lot of years of the ultimate invention for personal transportation

[Planetpapi]

I wanted that orange reflective tape a while back on my wheel but couldn't exactly find some thing like that so settled with black electric tape. Not relating to wheel, I ordered a landing pad for my drone and it came with pre-cut, reflective, self sticking strips along with it! All I have to do was just peel and stick. What do I say? 8 strips for both sides. Perfect cut, perfect sizing too! All for some $17 bucks.

Here is the link for my drone landing mat, that has these strips.

https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Protective-Helicopter-Quadcopters-KEBE/dp/B06XDN49ZV/ref=pd_sbs_421_18?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B06XDN49ZV&pd_rd_r=2VR5N1Q26SZ2GDQ9BZK8&pd_rd_w=tZACe&pd_rd_wg=Yx71Z&psc=1&refRID=2VR5N1Q26SZ2GDQ9BZK8

 

Oops! Wrong thread. Pardon me.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Planetpapi

[CaptainKBLS]

Thank you for all the advice.

Although I want to make the fun last as long as possible, I can't help but ride on the unbeaten path.  So I'm going with "Use it and enjoy the fun."!!!

Sometimes I see trails or roads and wonder where it lead, it's been great to be able to satisfy those curiosities.

[em1barns]

On 6/1/2017 at 3:48 PM, Jason McNeil said:

Speaking of bearings, did you know China still doesn't have the capability of making ballpoint pens?

Pen power: China closer to ballpoint success
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38566114

The problem was not the body of the pen, but the tip - the tiny ball that dispenses ink as you write. It might be something we take for granted, but making them requires high precision machinery and very hard, ultra-thin steel plates. Put simply, China's steel has not been good enough. And it has struggled to shape its pen tips accurately.

I've got some statistical insights here  With the 230x V8s sold in the past nine months, we've only encountered only a single instance of MOSFET failure on a V8. The V8's control-board is rock solid. Second generation KS16 boards had a failure rate of 32% within the first six month—third generation, much improved, has been less than 2% failure rate per year.  

Statistically speaking, is also manufacturer/supplier specific. I think KS 14Cs were the worst, if you're approaching the 100kg mark, you can be expect that your axle will fail within 2,000 miles. KS16's were better, but we still get the odd axle metal fatigue problem every now & then. These faults are usually manifested in symptoms where the pedal starts to scrape against the motor face-plate, so there's plenty of time before it actually fails. Once you get the motor out, there's typically a hairline fracture that causes the axle to bend a couple degrees. 

We've seen a good Kenda (or other hard compound) tire exceed 5,000km! Chaoyang tires are created of a softer rubber material & usually last for 2,000-3,000km.

Should get Inmotion or someone to sponsor an X-Prize for the the first person to exceed 100,000 on their Wheel. 

 

Wow, first time I see a dealer being transparent about failure rates, kudos to @Jason McNeil. This confirms my first impression on Inmotion quality of engineering compared to other brands, even on first batches of new models. It is good to see that Kingsong is ramping up their game as well.

Now what would be really great is to have figures on Gotway at some stage, by the look of the forum, it looks like they may be well behind latest Kingsong models.

[Circuitmage]

 

My son ran my new V3Pro full speed into a large metal trash dumpster a couple weeks ago. It cracked the front of the case and broke off a small 1" piece. I was able to snap the shell back together easily and all the functions have been working fine. Speaks well for the construction and durability the company puts into the products for me.

I consider this a "consumable electronics" item. If I get a few hundred miles out of it, it will be worth it. Already near 100 mi.

[em1barns]

1 minute ago, Circuitmage said:

 

My son ran my new V3Pro full speed into a large metal trash dumpster a couple weeks ago. It cracked the front of the case and broke off a small 1" piece. I was able to snap the shell back together easily and all the functions have been working fine. Speaks well for the construction and durability the company puts into the products for me.

I consider this a "consumable electronics" item. If I get a few hundred miles out of it, it will be worth it. Already near 100 mi.

I have 1200 miles on my v5+ and 2000 miles on my v8, except for minor Led issues they still work like first day.