Gotway "slop" forced my wheel to stop!

[noisycarlos]

I'm wondering if the Solowheel would have these kinds of problems.

Obviously they're not competitive anymore because they were expensive and their specs weren't there, and I don't know where they were made. 

I just wonder if that low specs/high price meant the build quality was off the charts for the time.

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, noisycarlos said:

I'm wondering if the Solowheel would have these kinds of problems.

Obviously they're not competitive anymore because they were expensive and their specs weren't there, and I don't know where they were made. 

I just wonder if that low specs/high price meant the build quality was off the charts for the time.

We need someone like AvE to do a tear down video of the Solowheel 

 

[esaj]

12 hours ago, jrkline said:

The Chinese are capable of making world class machines(Foxconn and the Iphone)under the right conditions.

Foxconn and iPhone are good examples, but I'd wager that most of all electronics is made in China today, from mobile phones to computers to high-end professional equipment (many oscilloscopes are made in China or Malaysia for example, still cost thousands). I guess it's down to the company making the orders to keep the quality in check. But yes, Chinese are very capable of not only making, but also designing world class machines. But the higher quality is probably not as cheap   If you have a population of 1.3 billion, there's bound to be pretty smart people in there too. I guess it mostly comes down to tightening the QA. Gotway apparently isn't a really big company, so likely they try to make do with minimal design staff and without much overlap. Smaller details like the wire gauge (design problem) and soldering have issues (QA problem). They might work just fine with a light weight rider in level ground, yet totally die with higher weight or more extreme conditions. Hard to say if it's just cost cutting or simply plain oversight though.

 

6 hours ago, noisycarlos said:

I'm wondering if the Solowheel would have these kinds of problems.

Obviously they're not competitive anymore because they were expensive and their specs weren't there, and I don't know where they were made. 

I just wonder if that low specs/high price meant the build quality was off the charts for the time.

Solowheel's are made in China too, "Designed in the USA/Assembled in China". But they slapped a $2000+  -price tag on the Xtreme, so probably it doesn't sell that much.

I think the typical problem with the wheels is trying to push too much power and speed and leaving too little safety margin. Solowheel Xtreme has 1800W motor (don't know if it's nominal or maximum though), yet the rated max speed is 16km/h. One of the biggest reasons I picked King Song was that they at least seem to have higher quality in general, and don't try to squeeze out too much of speed. KS16S uses a 1200W motor, with max speed rated as 35km/h, and yet uses the highest rated mosfets I've seen so far (Over 2 times smaller Rds(on) than the ones on Gotways/GT16, also the cost is about 2-2.5 times higher per piece), although Chris from 1RadWerkstatt may have had his part in pushing that change through . KS16B had 800W, and 30km/h rated, don't know on the mosfets. But yeah, they've still had issues like the weak pedals on some batches about a year ago. But in general, their process seems more streamlined and advanced, it probably helps to have the machinery to make your own boards for example (" Prior to self balancing scooters business, King song has been engaged in developing and producing power bank protection board, all of the control boards of king song scooters are made by our own SMT factory, which is one of our advantage compared to our competitors, we can be more flexible and gurrantee quality of core components.") :

 

 

 

[Rehab1]

49 minutes ago, esaj said:

King song has been engaged in developing and producing power bank protection board, all of the control boards of king song scooters are made by our own SMT factory, which is one of our advantage compared to our competitors, we can be more flexible and gurrantee quality of core components.") :

The video is extremely educational and depicts the inner workings of a fining tuned company!  I was not aware they produced their own boards! Such a sophisticated lab! 

 

 

[Dingfelder]

I remember reading or seeing an analysis of Chinese success in high tech that pointed out that while China can produce things, they comparatively rarely design or even conceive of them.  It's western companies that are overwhelmingly the power behind the throne when it comes to products reaching western shores.  To a great extent the success China has had in developing their own products in high tech and many other industries has come from "copying" *ahem* western designs, often as a result of forced technology exchange and training granted to Chinese partnerships whose ownership has been mandated by state/private entities as a condition of doing business.  A lot of cat has gotten out of the bag, but the Chinese economy tends not to generate its own cats.

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

2 hours ago, esaj said:

Foxconn and iPhone are good examples, but I'd wager that most of all electronics is made in China today,

Foxconn is a huge complex near Shenzhen that employs tens of thousands of people and makes all the Iphones to Apple's specs.And yes,Shenzhen is the electronics capital of the world.In the Huanqian Bay district of Shenzhen,there is an 8 story mall called S.E.G.(Shenzhen Electronics Group)that is a Geek's dream.Nothing but electronics.Every time I've been in Shenzhen,it is one of my favorite places to visit.

 

2 hours ago, esaj said:

If you have a population of 1.3 billion, there's bound to be pretty smart people in there too. I guess it mostly comes down to tightening the QA. Gotway apparently isn't a really big company, so likely they try to make do with minimal design staff and without much overlap. Smaller details like the wire gauge (design problem) and soldering have issues (QA problem). They might work just fine with a light weight rider in level ground, yet totally die with higher weight or more extreme conditions. Hard to say if it's just cost cutting or simply plain oversight though.

China has over 1.6 billion and more than enough highly skilled workers.And you're right,Gotway is not a big company,but neither is Kingsong.In fact,when I visited both of their facilities last October,I was surprised just how similiar both places were,in size,layout,assembly areas etc.Both companies are also top wheel makers.It seems that Kingsong puts more emphasis on quality that Gotway does.Gotway is more innovative and seems to produce wheels more geared to customer wants,size,power etc. sometimes at the cost of quality.A situation easily remedied by little more quality control. 

[dmethvin]

9 hours ago, noisycarlos said:

I'm wondering if the Solowheel would have these kinds of problems.

Obviously they're not competitive anymore because they were expensive and their specs weren't there, and I don't know where they were made. 

I just wonder if that low specs/high price meant the build quality was off the charts for the time.

The Solowheels are pretty underpowered compared to these wheels, aren't they? I doubt they've hit the limits that are causing these troubles.

I think we're running into the situation where each time the manufacturer makes a more powerful wheel they strengthen a few things but in the process create a weak point that they don't find until after it's released. Motor and batteries get upgraded, then it burns MOSFETs. They upgrade the MOSFETs and then are blowing fuses or overheating connectors. Et cetera. Et cetera. None of this shows up with a 70kg Chinese engineer testing a half-dozen times on a plywood ramp.

[Dingfelder]

Well, I hope they get there ASAP.  If Kingsong and Gotway are competing in essentially different aspects of the market, they cannot provide competition for each other in their own market specialties.  And that will lead to less necessity to be the best they can be.  Rather than each settling into their own uncompetitive niches, we would all be better off - and so would they themselves -- if they instead fought a duel to a death that never came and spewed out many generations of outstanding machines in the process, making lots of money along the way so they'd never have to stop.

[esaj]

6 minutes ago, jrkline said:

China has over 1.6 billion and more than enough highly skilled workers.And you're right,Gotway is not a big company,but neither is Kingsong.In fact,when I visited both of their facilities last October,I was surprised just how similiar both places were,in size,layout,assembly areas etc.Both companies are also top wheel makers.It seems that Kingsong puts more emphasis on quality that Gotway does.Gotway is more innovative and seems to produce wheels more geared to customer wants,size,power etc. sometimes at the cost of quality.A situation easily remedied by little more quality control. 

Well, if LinkedIn numbers can be trusted (probably not? ), Gotway is marked in the 11-50 employees bracket ( https://www.linkedin.com/company/gotway ), whereas King Song Electric Unicycles is in the 201-500 employees bracket ( https://www.linkedin.com/company/king-song-sports ) . But like said, those might not be actual numbers.

I'm not saying King Song is "better", they just seem to have taken a different, more conservative approach. Over-engineer and use components with higher ratings than seems necessary. Limit the maximum speed and power outputs so things don't fall apart. Gotway seems to push the envelope in the opposite direction, "how much speed & power can we get out of these things"  I'm happy with lower speeds (technically, anything above 1000W nominal and/or 25km/h max speed is illegal here, otherwise EUCs are legal) and (maybe ) higher reliability, but for people who want speed and power, the Gotways (and Rockwheel GT16's, with some reservations as it's too new to really know much about) are the way to go.

[Rehab1]

21 minutes ago, esaj said:

I'm not saying King Song is "better", they just seem to have taken a different, more conservative approach. Over-engineer and use components with higher ratings than seems necessary. Limit the maximum speed and power outputs so things don't fall apart. 

I have my wife reading your posts to instill confidence when her KS 14C arrives.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

I have my wife reading your posts to instill confidence when her KS 14C arrives.

My only fear for your wife, and I'm hesitant to write it, is that the 14C will be a more difficult wheel to learn on. It's such a squirrely wheel compared to 16"+ wheels. Just my opinion though. You obviously have more experience riding than I do so I'm sure she's in good hands   

[esaj]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

I have my wife reading your posts to instill confidence when her KS 14C arrives.

Not sure how much weight my opinions should be given, considering that my only real technical expertise is in the software-world, not mechanical engineering or electronics

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

3 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

I have my wife reading your posts to instill confidence when her KS 14C arrives.

The 14c is among the best wheels,to learn on or otherwise.Enough said.

[Rehab1]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

My only fear for your wife, and I'm hesitant to write it, is that the 14C will be a more difficult wheel to learn on. It's such a squirrely wheel compared to 16"+ wheels. Just my opinion though. You obviously have more experience riding than I do so I'm sure she's in good hands   

I just read in another post where@Paddylaz recommended having a drink or two before training. Combine that with a squirrelly wheel and we should have a very entertaining video!  

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

I just read in another post where@Paddylaz recommended having a drink or two before training. Combine that with a squirrelly wheel and we should have a very entertaining video!  

Please don't forget to turn on the video camera 

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

7 hours ago, jrkline said:

Foxconn is a huge complex near Shenzhen that employs tens of thousands of people and makes all the Iphones to Apple's specs.And yes,Shenzhen is the electronics capital of the world.In the Huanqian Bay district of Shenzhen,there is an 8 story mall called S.E.G.(Shenzhen Electronics Group)that is a Geek's dream.Nothing but electronics.Every time I've been in Shenzhen,it is one of my favorite places to visit.

 

China has over 1.6 billion and more than enough highly skilled workers.And you're right,Gotway is not a big company,but neither is Kingsong.In fact,when I visited both of their facilities last October,I was surprised just how similiar both places were,in size,layout,assembly areas etc.Both companies are also top wheel makers.It seems that Kingsong puts more emphasis on quality that Gotway does.Gotway is more innovative and seems to produce wheels more geared to customer wants,size,power etc. sometimes at the cost of quality.A situation easily remedied by little more quality control. 

@jrkline Did you see GOTWAY having a board pick and place machine, and a re-flow oven? HOw about an engineering department?

I am actually very pleased seeing the KingSong video of all the personnel doing technical engineering work.  I personally do not believe GOTWAY has any Engineering other than for the Case.  The circuit board looks like a MotorWorks clone. There is no way the soldering I have seen would pass an optical inspection. and They do not put conformal coating to prevent water shorting the circuits.

Tell us more about the GOTWAY factory please.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

My only fear for your wife, and I'm hesitant to write it, is that the 14C will be a more difficult wheel to learn on. It's such a squirrely wheel compared to 16"+ wheels. Just my opinion though. You obviously have more experience riding than I do so I'm sure she's in good hands   

@Rehab1 - I wonder whether the Ninebot One E+ might be a better wheel to learn on.  Maybe you can borrow the one you gave to your grandson so that your wife can use it to learn on?  I found the 14" generic wheel I had was a bugger to get learning on.  With the Ninebot - the extra weight and size of the wheel just felt so much easier to transition to.  Maybe the KS14 being heavier might be okay though as Jrkline mentioned?

[Rehab1]

20 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

@Rehab1 - I wonder whether the Ninebot One E+ might be a better wheel to learn on.  Maybe you can borrow the one you gave to your grandson so that your wife can use it to learn on?  I found the 14" generic wheel I had was a bugger to get learning on.  With the Ninebot - the extra weight and size of the wheel just felt so much easier to transition to.  Maybe the KS14 being heavier might be okay though as Jrkline mentioned?

• Great point! The only issue would the 30 minute traveling distance between us. It is going to take some time teaching her to ride so I would hate for him to be without a wheel for that amount of time. What about the V8 or the ACM...no forget the ACM.  She now knows I have the V8. I could protect it using the @esaj green padding method. 
• <----Where did I pick up this stupid dot?

[steve454]

16 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

<----Where did I pick up this stupid dot?

That's a pretty cool dot.  It won't highlight when I tried to quote you.<-----

[Rehab1]

4 minutes ago, steve454 said:

That's a pretty cool dot.  It won't highlight when I tried to quote you.

• Here, have a dot!

[esaj]

24 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

• Great point! The only issue would the 30 minute traveling distance between us. It is going to take some time teaching her to ride so I would hate for him to be without a wheel for that amount of time. What about the V8 or the ACM...no forget the ACM.  She now knows I have the V8. I could protect it using the @esaj green padding method. 
• <----Where did I pick up this stupid dot?

You've accidentally clicked the "Insert/Remove Bulleted List" -button when posting the messages.

Not sure what you mean by "green padding method", maybe the "slap them wherever seems likely to get hit and get it done" -method I used with the KS16S?

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

1 hour ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

@jrkline Did you see GOTWAY having a board pick and place machine, and a re-flow oven? HOw about an engineering department?

I am actually very pleased seeing the KingSong video of all the personnel doing technical engineering work.  I personally do not believe GOTWAY has any Engineering other than for the Case.  The circuit board looks like a MotorWorks clone. There is no way the soldering I have seen would pass an optical inspection. and They do not put conformal coating to prevent water shorting the circuits.

Tell us more about the GOTWAY factory please.

The facilities I visited were not factories.A more accurate description would be office and assembly facilities.I don't think any wheel maker is big enough or produces enough volume for a factory environment.I believe most of the components are produced by others and assembled by Gotway and Kingsong.Gotway may very well be procuring boards from Microworks.And I wouldn't necessarily believe all the promontional videos you see. 

[steve454]

Thanks @Rehab1

28 minutes ago, jrkline said:

The facilities I visited were not factories.A more accurate description would be office and assembly facilities.I don't think any wheel maker is big enough or produces enough volume for a factory environment.I believe most of the components are produced by others and assembled by Gotway and Kingsong.Gotway may very well be procuring boards from Microworks.And I wouldn't necessarily believe all the promontional videos you see. 

• The Kingsong video was very well made, almost looked like professional actors were hired.
• Oops, I hit the insert/remove bulleted list, whatever that means
• Anyway, cool, I can put my own dots now.
• Thanks @esaj

[US69]

@jrkline

my 2 cents:

Please! Get rid of that yellow connector when you are redoing it! The problem lies in the connector itself as it is only usable for 60Amps max!

But through a motor phase sometimes a lot more Amps are running!!!!

Even Gotway themselve checked that and got this type of connector away and changed it to bullet connector for each phase on all later ACM/V3 models....(which in the end also needs to be crimped because of the high resistance, see Jason's Post)

i would use 150A bullet connector for each phase.....or a completely self crimped and soldered solution....

[Scatcat]

6 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

@jrkline

my 2 cents:

Please! Get rid of that yellow connector when you are redoing it! The problem lies in the connector itself as it is only usable for 60Amps max!

But through a motor phase sometimes a lot more Amps are running!!!!

Even Gotway themselve checked that and got this type of connector away and changed it to bullet connector for each phase on all later ACM/V3 models....(which in the end also needs to be crimped because of the high resistance, see Jason's Post)

i would use 150A bullet connector for each phase.....or a completely self crimped and soldered solution....

I'd like to get 150A bullet connectors, do you have any recommendations where to buy them?