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Gotway "slop" forced my wheel to stop!


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                As @Marty Backehas already mentioned in another post,I was out riding today with @Marty Backe and @noisycarlos in Whittier when my ACM failed while ascending a hill.Due to my mods to make it into the "world famous ACM2040",opening up the side panels to reveal the problem was relatively easy.As I suspected,it was a motor connector failure due to lousy soldering from the factory,not the connector itself.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             DUyQx9B.jpg                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       When I opened the side panel and felt the motor connector,It was warm and the wires popped out of the motor side of the connector all at once.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Lkl2Y6a.jpg                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         From this pic it is plain as day as to the cause of the failure,CRAPPY GOTWAY FACTORY SOLDERING!:angry: The only repair tool I had to work with was a pocket knife,so I cut out the the connector and twisted and taped the wires together(MaGyvered it) so I could finish the ride.:D The funny thing is,the Magyvered connection is probably better than the original factory ones!

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33 minutes ago, jrkline said:

                As @Marty Backehas already mentioned in another post,I was out riding today with @Marty Backe and @noisycarlos in Whittier when my ACM failed while ascending a hill.Due to my mods to make it into the "world famous ACM2040",opening up the side panels to reveal the problem was relatively easy.As I suspected,it was a motor connector failure due to lousy soldering from the factory,not the connector itself.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             DUyQx9B.jpg                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       When I opened the side panel and felt the motor connector,It was warm and the wires popped out of the motor side of the connector all at once.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Lkl2Y6a.jpg                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         From this pic it is plain as day as to the cause of the failure,CRAPPY GOTWAY FACTORY SOLDERING!:angry: The only repair tool I had to work with was a pocket knife,so I cut out the the connector and twisted and taped the wires together(MaGyvered it) so I could finish the ride.:D The funny thing is,the Magyvered connection is probably better than the original factory ones!

As a witness, I was impressed with Jeff's ability to get back on the road. Seemed like about 15 minutes of work and he had the wheel back in operating condition and we continued on for another 7 or so miles of rough trail riding with a few spills along the way. No matter how we ride, this wheel just can't be killed :D

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1 hour ago, jrkline said:

                                                                         From this pic it is plain as day as to the cause of the failure,CRAPPY GOTWAY FACTORY SOLDERING!:angry: The only repair tool I had to work with was a pocket knife,so I cut out the the connector and twisted and taped the wires together(MaGyvered it) so I could finish the ride.:D The funny thing is,the Magyvered connection is probably better than the original factory ones!

Great job on the temporary fix! Your connector looks like an XL 60 but with 3 posts. GW currently uses the 2 post XL 60s for the board's power leads. Suck ass soldering job! I would also be pissed!

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@jrkline while you are inspecting the wiring check the motor/ hall sensor wires exiting the motor's axle. The end of the spring that is wrapped around those wires should be inside the axle's hole to protect the wires from abrasion. I have found that the wire conduit holes located at both ends of the axle have sharp edges. 

 

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1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

@jrkline while you are inspecting the wiring check the motor/ hall sensor wires exiting the motor's axle. The end of the spring that is wrapped around those wires should be inside the axle's hole to protect the wires from abrasion. I have found that the wire conduit holes located at both ends of the axle have sharp edges. 

 

Good eye! I plan on going back inside tomorrow to fix the MacGyvered connections and at the same time I'll throw a grommet on the axle wires(have done it on other wheels) and it is a great way to fix the spring weakness.

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Never under-estimate the abilities of a skilled electrician!  :thumbup:

I still wonder whether it could be inferior low temperature melting solder that is liquifying and allowing the wires to drop out.  Do you have a variable temperature soldering iron?  Maybe try melting the solder at different temperatures starting with a low setting first for like 30 seconds at a time and see if you can determine the melting point.

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3 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I still wonder whether it could be inferior low temperature melting solder that is liquifying and allowing the wires to drop out.  Do you have a variable temperature soldering iron?

That definately could be. Maybe the GW soldering tech had a fight with his wife the night before and took it out on @jrkline's wheel.

 I myself like to use a butane soldering kit especially when working with the new bullet connectors GW is currently using. The molten solder puddles easily inside the bullet concavity as the wires are inserted.

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4 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

That definately could be. Maybe the GW soldering tech had a fight with his wife the night before and took it out on @jrkline's wheel.

 I myself like to use a butane soldering kit especially when working with the new bullet connectors GW is currently using. The molten solder puddles easily inside the bullet concavity as the wires are inserted.

It appeared as if 2 of the 3 soldering connections lacked enough solder to completely fill the space around the wire once it was inserted in the connector.The fault was not the connector design or the solder used but the lack of sufficient amounts of solder to insure a quality connection.A first rate wheel manufcturer such as Gotway should not be employing some PUNKASS BITCH to solder their connectors!:angry:

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4 minutes ago, jrkline said:

A first rate wheel manufcturer such as Gotway should not be employing some PUNKASS BITCH to solder their connectors!:angry:

 

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9 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

Great job on the temporary fix! Your connector looks like an XL 60 but with 3 posts. GW currently uses the 2 post XL 60s for the board's power leads. Suck ass soldering job! I would also be pissed!

For future reference, the 3-pin connector is called MT60:

MT60-connector-plug-socket-A85068_b_0.JP

 

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1 hour ago, esaj said:

For future reference, the 3-pin connector is called MT60:

MT60-connector-plug-socket-A85068_b_0.JP

 

Thanks. I was trying to find those. Glad I was unsuccessful as the bullet connectors offer a solid stabile connection. 

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Gotway moved away from soldered motor connector wires for just this reason. The theory is that these soldered junctions are pockets of resistance, as you ride the Wheel hard, the heat builds up, resistance rises to the point where the solder melts & wires detach (that's the claim at least). Post February builds use crimped connectors now. 

 

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2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Gotway moved away from soldered motor connector wires for just this reason. The theory is that these soldered junctions are pockets of resistance, as you ride the Wheel hard, the heat builds up, resistance rises to the point where the solder melts & wires detach (that's the claim at least). Post February builds use crimped connectors now. 

 

We were climbing a very serious trail hill for minutes. Jeff has climbed many other hills before, but this was a rather long one. And I remember he said the cabling was still very warm by the time he took the cover off.

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

We were climbing a very serious trail hill for minutes. Jeff has climbed many other hills before, but this was a rather long one. And I remember he said the cabling was still very warm by the time he took the cover off.

The connector itself was NOT the problem.The problem was the lack of solder originally used during factory assembly in 2 of the 3 wire connection points at the connector thus degrading over time to create enough heat to cause a fault under load,I.E. human error.All Gotway high power wheels:ACM,Monster,Msuper and the like using the MT style motor connectors should probably be recalled to have those connectors replaced before it happens to someone where it could be life threatening.

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25 minutes ago, jrkline said:

The connector itself was NOT the problem.The problem was the lack of solder originally used during factory assembly in 2 of the 3 wire connection points at the connector thus degrading over time to create enough heat to cause a fault under load,I.E. human error.All Gotway high power wheels:ACM,Monster,Msuper and the like using the MT style motor connectors should probably be recalled to have those connectors replaced before it happens to someone where it could be life threatening.

The day that a Gotway or any other wheel manufacturer has a recall is the day that peace reigns over the Earth ;)

Since your commentary seems to be applied towards my comment, I just want to say that I didn't mention a connector, and that I was just reiterating that a crappy solder joint in combination with lots of heat probably was the leading cause of your failure.

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I wish there were a sort of premium you could pay to make sure you got top-quality materials and assembly attention.  I'd certainly pay it for safety's sake alone, and on a premium machine paying some more money for the highest quality version of a wheel wouldn't sting egregiously.

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41 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

I wish there were a sort of premium you could pay to make sure you got top-quality materials and assembly attention.

Proper soldering shouldn't be a "premium" feature!!

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13 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Gotway moved away from soldered motor connector wires for just this reason. The theory is that these soldered junctions are pockets of resistance, as you ride the Wheel hard, the heat builds up, resistance rises to the point where the solder melts & wires detach (that's the claim at least). Post February builds use crimped connectors now. 

Interesting as I thought both my new ACM motor and main board came with soldered bullet connectors. I was unaware that GW used a crimp style heavy duty bullet connector.  It will be nice to gain a better understanding about these new connectors after I dissect one tomorrow.

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59 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

I wish there were a sort of premium you could pay to make sure you got top-quality materials and assembly attention.  I'd certainly pay it for safety's sake alone, and on a premium machine paying some more money for the highest quality version of a wheel wouldn't sting egregiously.

It's a nice idea, but from a marketing perspective it would never work. Who among us would buy a cheaper version of the same product, but it .didn't have "Pro Version includes adherence to quality safety standards".

I'm beginning to think that Gotway and others are fully capable (even being small companies) of producing higher quality built machines. I now think that the people running these companies lack imagination and/or vision to produce what we really want.

The smallest of details make this apparent. I can't believe it would cost very much to have properly translated manuals for all of the major markets that they sell to. Instead they grab someone that knows the bare minimum English (for the English speaking market) to translate their manuals (which even in Chinese are a joke).

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11 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm beginning to think that Gotway and others are fully capable (even being small companies) of producing higher quality built machines. I now think that the people running these companies lack imagination and/or vision to produce what we really want.

The smallest of details make this apparent. I can't believe it would cost very much to have properly translated manuals for all of the major markets that they sell to. Instead they grab someone that knows the bare minimum English (for the English speaking market) to translate their manuals (which even in Chinese are a joke).

The Chinese are capable of making world class machines(Foxconn and the Iphone)under the right conditions.A lot of it is simply their inexperience with Capitalism.Much akin to how "made in Japan" was a joke until the 70's when after years of visiting American companies and taking pictures,"every Jap has a camera",was the motto,the Japanese started to implement all they had learned and put Detroit in the hurt locker by making better cars.

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19 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm beginning to think that Gotway and others are fully capable (even being small companies) of producing higher quality built machines. I now think that the people running these companies lack imagination and/or vision to produce what we really want.

Well, the newest ACM and MSuper in black look higher quality on the outside than the older versions.  The shape of them is looking better each time I see an unboxing video.  And the wiring seems to be getting a little better.  Gotway seems to be improving as time goes on, but the Chenglish manuals sure do seem an easy thing to improve.  Like you said, it should be so easy to find someone to translate them for all the markets.   Most electronics today have manuals with three or four translations in them.  I am hoping the Chinese manufactures eventually arrive at Japanese levels of quality.  That will probably happen if they start selling Iphone quantities, right now the volume is probably still too low.

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8 hours ago, steve454 said:

Well, the newest ACM and MSuper in black look higher quality on the outside than the older versions.  The shape of them is looking better each time I see an unboxing video.  And the wiring seems to be getting a little better.  Gotway seems to be improving as time goes on, but the Chenglish manuals sure do seem an easy thing to improve.  Like you said, it should be so easy to find someone to translate them for all the markets.   Most electronics today have manuals with three or four translations in them.  I am hoping the Chinese manufactures eventually arrive at Japanese levels of quality.  That will probably happen if they start selling Iphone quantities, right now the volume is probably still too low.

I think you hit the problem right on the head. When looking into the wiring and build of my Rockwheel GT16, I was struck by how much the "solutions" could be improved at no - or at least very low - cost.

But the market is rather small, which means they can't really take recalls or delay a release to redesign stuff that turned out suboptimal. If they sold wheels on the level of smartphones, the story would be different. The wheels would cost 30% less and have twice the design-quality and build quality of today. A phone company can't really afford total flaps. Look at how close Samsung, the worlds biggest telephone seller came to absolute catastrophe with the Samsung Note the had to pull... people still joke about their phones being good fire-starters, hand-grenades and whatever.

Our market may become bigger, and we're early adopters. But it will never be a really big product, because it requires skill to use, and the stubbornness to acquire that skill. A lot of people find them outright scary, actually that was my first reaction when I saw my first EUC a few years ago. Zipping around at 20kmh+ on a single wheel looked to me like a death wish, and I know quite a few people around me wonder if I've gone bonkers. So general acceptance and a huge market, no. But a bigger market than today, sure.

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4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It's a nice idea, but from a marketing perspective it would never work. Who among us would buy a cheaper version of the same product, but it .didn't have "Pro Version includes adherence to quality safety standards".

I'm beginning to think that Gotway and others are fully capable (even being small companies) of producing higher quality built machines. I now think that the people running these companies lack imagination and/or vision to produce what we really want.

The smallest of details make this apparent. I can't believe it would cost very much to have properly translated manuals for all of the major markets that they sell to. Instead they grab someone that knows the bare minimum English (for the English speaking market) to translate their manuals (which even in Chinese are a joke).

I'm thinking of, like, when cars have standard models, maybe a moderate upgrade package, and finally a "GT," which usually has the best of that model's engines, maybe a better braking system or four wheel drive etc., even better seats and fit and finish.  You might spend a few or even ten thousand dollars more, but it can make the difference between a car with good and with lousy performance, one that looks half-done and one that is much nicer.  Ford does that on a lot of its models -- the old Escort, the Mustang, etc. 

Safety and reasonable quality should always be standard, of course.  Vehicles aren't spatulas; poor workmanship could get someone hurt or killed.

Paying a premium sometimes gets you better workmanship throughout a whole product, though.  At least if the manufacturer feels motivated to establish a reputation for quality.  I used to own one of the first years of the Toyota Lexus sports car.  It was more than ten years old at the time.  People at gas stations and elsewhere would often come up to talk to me about it and even offer to buy it.  They said the first year or so, Toyota was new to luxury cars and really needed to make a name for themselves on that car.  So they put high quality components throughout.  A few years later, reputation already well-established, they started cutting corners, substituting plastic for metal parts and the like  Aficionados wound up thinking more highly of the older models.  

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8 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

I'm thinking of, like, when cars have standard models, maybe a moderate upgrade package, and finally a "GT," which usually has the best of that model's engines, maybe a better braking system or four wheel drive etc., even better seats and fit and finish.  You might spend a few or even ten thousand dollars more, but it can make the difference between a car with good and with lousy performance, one that looks half-done and one that is much nicer.  Ford does that on a lot of its models -- the old Escort, the Mustang, etc. 

Safety and reasonable quality should always be standard, of course.  Vehicles aren't spatulas; poor workmanship could get someone hurt or killed.

Paying a premium sometimes gets you better workmanship throughout a whole product, though.  At least if the manufacturer feels motivated to establish a reputation for quality.  I used to own one of the first years of the Toyota Lexus sports car.  It was more than ten years old at the time.  People at gas stations and elsewhere would often come up to talk to me about it and even offer to buy it.  They said the first year or so, Toyota was new to luxury cars and really needed to make a name for themselves on that car.  So they put high quality components throughout.  A few years later, reputation already well-established, they started cutting corners, substituting plastic for metal parts and the like  Aficionados wound up thinking more highly of the older models.  

 

 

 

Lots of good ideas. I think it'll be years before the Chinese have the marketing and design skills to do this on their own.

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