Kingsong Alarm Details and Explanation

[Evel_Knievel]

Can someone point me to a good explanation of the Alarms on a KS-16S? I'm assuming they are the same for most KS wheels. 

As I haven't found anything other than the KS App guide which is pretty basic and some materiel may be lost in translation. My biggest questions are: Are the alarms strictly based on RPM? How do you manage the risk of a low battery? Shouldn't the alarms be based on battery voltage? I have a Ninebot One E+ and the alarms definitely vary with battery state. Does the KS-16 do that as well? What do you all recommend for alarm settings? 

Searched the forums for questions along these lines but didn't find much along these lines. Forgive me I missed something.

Thanks,
A

[Evel_Knievel]

WTF! Ollie is tiltback?! Where does Ollie cone from!? NB1 tiltback is voltage dependent...can anyone comment on Kingsong?

[Marty Backe]

The first two alarms are intended as speed warnings. Speed is not dependent on voltage, so it's mph/rpm.

The 3rd alarm is an indication of available power under load. I believe it's activated when you exceed 80% of available power. Thus when your wheel is fully charged the 3rd alarm won't sound until you achieve very high speeds. As your battery level drops so does the effective speed at which point the alarm sounds. When you're low enough it'll be beeping at 3mph.

Yep, love the Ollie tilt-back. Welcome to Chinese translations 

Tilt-back kicks in for multiple unrelated reasons. One of which is max speed (not voltage level). It will also tilt-back when the battery is nearly depleted. And if the wheel over heats it will tilt-back. And if your wheel is overcharged (going downhill on a full battery) tilt-back kicks in. There may be other reasons too.

 

[Evel_Knievel]

Excellent explanation, Marty! Thank you!

What would you recommend they be set at on a KS-16S for safe riding? 

[Christoph Zens]

6 hours ago, Evel_Knievel said:

WTF! Ollie is tiltback?! Where does Ollie cone from!? NB1 tiltback is voltage dependent...can anyone comment on Kingsong?

Ollie is a term related to snowboarding and skateboarding: A jump performed without the aid of a take-off ramp, executed by pressing the foot down on the tail of the board to rebound the deck off the ground.

Origin: From the name of the US skateboarder Alan ‘Ollie’ Gelfand, who invented the jump in 1976.

I have no idea how they found this term and decided to use it for tilt back...  This would imply a rather fierce tilt back. I hope they didn't implement it like that.

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Evel_Knievel said:

Excellent explanation, Marty! Thank you!

What would you recommend they be set at on a KS-16S for safe riding? 

Of course this is a personal decision for obvious reasons, but I configure all of my Gotway and KingSong wheels like this:

• 1st and 2nd alarms off
• 3rd alarm cannot be configured
• Tilt-back is disabled (I can't remember if KingSong allows this). Basically, I pay attention to the 3rd alarm and always slow down when I hear it. I don't want the tilt-back to kick in, particularly at very high speed because it may require more power from the wheel that the wheel has, and then it will cutout. That's the theory that some of us believe in.

[kasenutty]

So, ollie is tilt back? Haha, I had no idea and wonder why I never got tiltback on my face plant. I'm gonna set it at like 28 or 27 kph or something. i have it at 30 kph right now. Never really felt it. 

[Slel]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

• 3rd alarm cannot be configured
• Tilt-back is disabled

3rd alarm can be configured and is also a speed warning. you can set it to 6mph if you wish (which is non-sense but just for the example).

On KS, you can't disable tilt-back

Personally, I disable alarms 1 and 2, set tilt-back at 28kph and alarm 3 at 30kph

[Evel_Knievel]

47 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

So, ollie is tilt back? Haha, I had no idea and wonder why I never got tiltback on my face plant. I'm gonna set it at like 28 or 27 kph or something. i have it at 30 kph right now. Never really felt it. 

What wheel do you have? Just want to make sure since alarms would be wheel dependent. Also interested since you mentioned face planting.

[kasenutty]

14c

[HermanTheGerman]

6 hours ago, Slel said:

3rd alarm can be configured and is also a speed warning. you can set it to 6mph if you wish (which is non-sense but just for the example).

On KS, you can't disable tilt-back

Personally, I disable alarms 1 and 2, set tilt-back at 28kph and alarm 3 at 30kph

Correct, this is also my experience with my KS16B.

I turn off alarms 1 and 2, and set both alarm3 and tiltback (ollie) to 30 km/h.

I never had an issue with that. With 1.23 tiltback was smooth and I reached once 39 km/h, with 1.25 I could never exceed 35 km/h until now.

At least at my KS16B I see the 30 km/h setting for both as absolutely safe, I am riding more than 1800 km now with that setting (and more than 2300 overall).

[steve454]

15 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

Ollie is a term related to snowboarding and skateboarding: A jump performed without the aid of a take-off ramp, executed by pressing the foot down on the tail of the board to rebound the deck off the ground.

Origin: From the name of the US skateboarder Alan ‘Ollie’ Gelfand, who invented the jump in 1976.

I have no idea how they found this term and decided to use it for tilt back...  This would imply a rather fierce tilt back. I hope they didn't implement it like that.

When I was riding 20 inch bicycles, back in 1967, my friends and I discovered that we could jump from the street, over the curb, and on to the sidewalk using that method.  We called it bunnyhopping

[abinder3]

I have my KS18AY alarms set to: 

1st and 2nd alarm to 0

3rd alarm set to 36

4th alarm set to 40 (the max speed)

 

I once set my 3rd alarm to 38, but it was too close to tilt back and would be very easy to hit tilt back when the 3rd alarm would sound if accelerating since the 3rd and 4th alarms were so close.   The tilt back on my KA18AY seems to be very sudden. 

 

Allen

[Christoph Zens]

17 hours ago, Slel said:

3rd alarm can be configured and is also a speed warning. you can set it to 6mph if you wish (which is non-sense but just for the example).

On KS, you can't disable tilt-back

Personally, I disable alarms 1 and 2, set tilt-back at 28kph and alarm 3 at 30kph

I have yet to receive my KS16-S, but I think I will also go with this 'reversed' approach. Unless their tilt-back is actually performing an Ollie and I have to fear it will send me flying off the wheel, I would prefer tilt-back to happen well before the unit runs out of reserve to actually tilt back. Also, allowing for tilt-back before the audible alarm goes off should remove annoying warning sounds while cruising near the desired top speed. My NB1 beeps a lot on me during normal cruise and I don't really like that. What I hope to get out of the 3rd alarm on the KS16 is instant beeps in overload situations, independent of speed. Seems like KS is doing this just fine.

[abinder3]

Tilt back only happens when you are at max speed for the given amount of battery you have left.  That's why you set the 3rd alarm a few kph below the max speed and the 4th alarm for the max speed. 

I don't know if anyway you can set the audible alarm higher than the tilt back.  I'm pretty sure you don't want to be hitting tilt back much because its sudden, not gradual. 

 

Allen

[Christoph Zens]

1 hour ago, abinder3 said:

Tilt back only happens when you are at max speed for the given amount of battery you have left.  That's why you set the 3rd alarm a few kph below the max speed and the 4th alarm for the max speed. 

I don't know if anyway you can set the audible alarm higher than the tilt back.  I'm pretty sure you don't want to be hitting tilt back much because its sudden, not gradual. 

 

Allen

OK, got it! So, any overload beeps are totally independent of the alarm settings. Makes sense, since there is no way you would allow the user to configure what overload means or allow him to disable warnings related to overload. My NB1 has no warning settings to configure at all, it's fixed. In any case, it beeps when it reaches 1.5kW going up a steep incline, even when speed is well below 10kph. It also beeps when it's getting too hot.

Thanks for the heads up regarding tilt-back. On my NB1, tilt-back is so gradual I usually ride on half-tilt-back (if that makes sense).

[Fitz0uille]

You have speed alarm and System alarm in KS 16S if you don't cut the sound you will hear a sentence who says what happens

In my experience, Alarm doesn't adapt with KS16S firmware 1.00.
That's odd cause I think they have adapted with KS16B 1.25 (I haven't made a lot of test so I'm not sure)

If you set alarm 3 on KS16S at 30km/h you will heard beeps only at 30km/s wihtout any consideration of your engine couple. If you have only 30% of battery, you will feel TB before hear alarm 3 (~28Km.h). I'm not sure about behavior during an uphill but i guess that will be the same.

I hope they will fix that in a near future cause I find this behavior not really safe for the end user...

Edited May 10, 2017 by Fitz0uille

[HermanTheGerman]

Tiltback on KS18 and KS16 is quite different.

On KS18 it is quite aggressive, on KS16 (at least my KS16B) it is not that aggressive (although with 1.25 a little bit more than with 1.23) and also a sudden tiltback because of to much acceleration can be easily handled.

I can only repeat that I consider my setting 0,0,30,30 as completely safe (setting 0,0,28,30 or something like that would drive me crazy because of the beeps).

Of course I don't know if it will be the same on KS16S, and before I set it to 0,0,35,35 I will definitely test it thouroughly, when I buy one in summer.

Edited May 10, 2017 by HermanTheGerman

[Vislike]

Bringing up this topic again, asking for some more clarity from fellow KS riders.

I have a KS-16S fw v1.0, i have currently set my alarms to 0-30-35-35 and with a lot of battery this works fine, it beeps at 30 and more beeps and tilt back at 35.

My question is simply when battery is low, will the tiltback kick in before 35? Today when i was out riding and the battery was down to <30% and i was going uphill somewhere between 20-25 a alarm kicked in, i assume this is the level 3 alarm that gets lowered when battery voltage goes down, but i felt no tiltback. This alarm was very persistent it kept beeping until i slowed down some, but no tiltback. Does anyone know if the tiltback would have kicked in on KS16Sv1.0 if i tried to raise the speed? I felt very uneasy to try it myself afraid of a cutout.

I have a friend who owns a KS-16(A?) and he claims his KS lowers the tiltback threshold and he have had tiltback at very low speeds. E.g then the battery is nearly empty his KS will tiltback not allowing him to go any further. I have hoverer ridden my KS16S to low battery and in the end it was beeping like crazy even at walking speed but still no tiltback, i then decided not to push it any further afraid of a cut out. So the same question applies here, do anyone know if the KS16Sv1.0 will have a tiltback after the beep warning if i try to raise the speed, or will it go straight from beeps to not enough power and cut out?

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Vislike said:

My question is simply when battery is low, will the tiltback kick in before 35? Today when i was out riding and the battery was down to <30% and i was going uphill somewhere between 20-25 a alarm kicked in, i assume this is the level 3 alarm that gets lowered when battery voltage goes down, but i felt no tiltback. This alarm was very persistent it kept beeping until i slowed down some, but no tiltback. Does anyone know if the tiltback would have kicked in on KS16Sv1.0 if i tried to raise the speed? I felt very uneasy to try it myself afraid of a cutout.

I have a friend who owns a KS-16(A?) and he claims his KS lowers the tiltback threshold and he have had tiltback at very low speeds. E.g then the battery is nearly empty his KS will tiltback not allowing him to go any further. I have hoverer ridden my KS16S to low battery and in the end it was beeping like crazy even at walking speed but still no tiltback, i then decided not to push it any further afraid of a cut out. So the same question applies here, do anyone know if the KS16Sv1.0 will have a tiltback after the beep warning if i try to raise the speed, or will it go straight from beeps to not enough power and cut out?

This was introduced for the whole ks series some time ago. For ks16 this lower fixed speed limit was firstly at 50% battery charge and then lowered to 25%. Then there is also the "limp home" mode with a very low speed limit, once the battery is almost empty.

so it seems the ks16s has the same limit at 25% as the ks16b/c.

the reasoning behind this is, because with lower battery charge also the battery voltage gets lower which leads to a lower max (no load) speed and a lowered maximum torque.

edit:

If raising the speed once it beeps at low charge leads to cutout or tiltback depends on how much one accelerates. Doing it softly should lead to a tiltback - doing it too aggressively could lead to immenent overlean ( a real cut-out is unprobable - its just the battery not able to deliver enough current to provide enough torque to keep one upright - so one overleans, if one cannot balance it out)

Edited July 15, 2017 by Chriull

[Vislike]

Yes yes, i get why the speed is lowered, and i like that, safety over all.

But i might have some answers to my own questions, did some experimenting with the alarms, and it seams once you hit the first enabled alarms limit it will keep beeping until you slow down or until you hit the next alarm. So e.g. i set the alarms to 10-20-30-30, the beeps started almost as soon as i got on the wheel. Doing two beeps, and after i hit the 20km/h mark the beeps changed to three beeps, and after i hit 30 i got tiltback and 4 beeps, and when lowering down the speed to 15km/h i still had alarm 1 beeping all the time.

So i am guessing all alarms are scaled down on the kingsong. The beeps i started hearing might have been the level 2 alarm beeps and with more speed level 3 and tiltback might have hit. I am not sure of this though, cam anyone confirm that they get tiltback and lower speed than 35km/h when they have low voltage on the KS16S?

[US69]

1 hour ago, Vislike said:

Yes yes, i get why the speed is lowered, and i like that, safety over all.

But i might have some answers to my own questions, did some experimenting with the alarms, and it seams once you hit the first enabled alarms limit it will keep beeping until you slow down or until you hit the next alarm. So e.g. i set the alarms to 10-20-30-30, the beeps started almost as soon as i got on the wheel. Doing two beeps, and after i hit the 20km/h mark the beeps changed to three beeps, and after i hit 30 i got tiltback and 4 beeps, and when lowering down the speed to 15km/h i still had alarm 1 beeping all the time.

So i am guessing all alarms are scaled down on the kingsong. The beeps i started hearing might have been the level 2 alarm beeps and with more speed level 3 and tiltback might have hit. I am not sure of this though, cam anyone confirm that they get tiltback and lower speed than 35km/h when they have low voltage on the KS16S?

I can not confirm especially for the 16S...but in general KS works with ALL alarms are scaled down...and in the end 4th alarm will give you a tiltback....

Example: if alarms set to 0 0 30 35 these alarms should then be 25 30 at low level and getting more down as this is linear with batterie depleting

Having the alarm set to example 25 27 30 35 would make on low batterie 20 22 25 30

So as lower you set the alarms...it even gets more conservative at low batterie!

I can hardly believe that KS is not lowering the tiltback on low batterie on the 16S

Edited July 15, 2017 by KingSong69

[HermanTheGerman]

It is like Kingsong69 wrote, the alarms are lowered down when battery is below  ~25%.

I described that once here especially for the ollie (tiltback) setting, but it's the same for the other alarms:

As I wrote once:  Because of my experience with the KS16 I turned off the 1st 2 alarms completely, and set the 3rd alarm at maxspeed, like the ollie (tiltback) setting, so my alarms look like 0,0,30,30. This is automatically lowered by the firmware at low battery levels to 0,0,25,25, maybe even lower at very low battery levels (which I didn't test until now).

For me this setting has the advantage that it results in as less beeps as possible and is still absolutely safe (for the KS16B wheel only). I'm driving a lot, also steep hills and offroad, and never had a highspeed cutout until now.

Because I don't own a KS16S until now, I can't say, if 0,0,35,35 is equally safe there.

[Fitz0uille]

I have an other experience :
Low battery : TB before Alarm.

Make a test but in my case, alarms don't scaled down

[HermanTheGerman]

13 hours ago, Fitz0uille said:

I have an other experience :
Low battery : TB before Alarm.

Make a test but in my case, alarms don't scaled down

Is this on a KS16 with FW 1.25 ?

I don't know if alarms1 and 2 scale down, but on my KS16 at least alarm3 scales down together with tiltback, when battery is below 25%.