Need help with EL lights Gotway Msuper v3

[xiiijojjo]

 

So i saw this awesome mod from a follow member of this forum @SuperSport and wanted to make something like that myself so i bought 2 el light kits which turned out to be battery driven

I'd like to know if it's possible to convert these units from being battery driven to being fed from the internal battery and if that's the case would i be able to have them work in pair with the headlights meaning that when i turn on the headlights these turn on too? (this would be the preferred method) If not what alternatives could i look to?

Now i have a soldering iron and a little experience so i'm not worried about damaging components but i just don't know what to solder where and IF this is even possible.

I'll greatly appreciate any and all help 

edit: for the sake of clarity
In the pictures you see both the units. On the left hand side you see the unit as it comes the one on the right i removed the plastic casing 

 

 

 

 

 

[esaj]

2 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

So i saw this awesome mod from a follow member of this forum @SuperSport and wanted to make something like that myself so i bought 2 el light kits which turned out to be battery driven

I'd like to know if it's possible to convert these units from being battery driven to being fed from the internal battery and if that's the case would i be able to have them work in pair with the headlights meaning that when i turn on the headlights these turn on too? (this would be the preferred method) If not what alternatives could i look to?

Now i have a soldering iron and a little experience so i'm not worried about damaging components but i just don't know what to solder where and IF this is even possible.

I'll greatly appreciate any and all help 

edit: for the sake of clarity
In the pictures you see both the units. On the left hand side you see the unit as it comes the one on the right i removed the plastic casing 

I have a similar looking battery powered EL-light -inverter. I've never measured it, but I know it uses low voltage (2 x 1.5V batteries). The problems with powering that from the wheel batteries I can think of would be dropping the voltage of the batteries (67.2V or 84V worst case with full batteries, depending on the wheel) to 3V, dealing with the cooling of the step-down and finally, EL-wire uses AC-current (that's why there's an inverter), which might cause some noise-issues (or not) in other parts of the wheel circuit. 

I take no responsibility if you choose to follow this , but the steps I would take are:

- Measure the current the circuit draws from the 2 x 1.5V batteries

- Get a proper step-down converter that can handle the voltage drop (>80V in worst case) with that current without burning up, preferably leave a LOT of safe margin between the maximum power dissipation it's supposed to handle and what the EL-wire needs

- Add a diode (a normal, 1000V reverse breakdown) and a fuse before the step-down, so it shouldn't cause high-voltage spikes backwards in any case, or if it short circuits, the fuse will blow and won't kill your wheel

- Test the damn thing from a proper CC/CV -power source first, ie. something that can limit current and/or cut the power in case something's wrong, don't just stick it into the batteries without testing

- Consult someone else who knows better than a a hack like me for anything I overlooked in my 2 minute pondering

 

[xiiijojjo]

Okay so today i pulled apart my generic unicycle(dead control board) and inside i found 3x88WH battery packs all wired together, a charge port and a power button/indicator and this gave me an idea.

Maybe i can use these and make a closed system out of these and the EL wire.

I just wish i knew enough about electronics and soldering and such so i could make a closed system out of the EL wire, batteries from the unicycle and power button and then make the system rechargeable with the charge port.

I will add pictures of these components tomorrow and cross my fingers one of you will babysit me through the process of making this EL light system.

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

On 4/30/2017 at 11:35 AM, esaj said:

I have a similar looking battery powered EL-light -inverter. I've never measured it, but I know it uses low voltage (2 x 1.5V batteries). The problems with powering that from the wheel batteries I can think of would be dropping the voltage of the batteries (67.2V or 84V worst case with full batteries, depending on the wheel) to 3V, dealing with the cooling of the step-down and finally, EL-wire uses AC-current (that's why there's an inverter), which might cause some noise-issues (or not) in other parts of the wheel circuit. 

I take no responsibility if you choose to follow this , but the steps I would take are:

- Measure the current the circuit draws from the 2 x 1.5V batteries

- Get a proper step-down converter that can handle the voltage drop (>80V in worst case) with that current without burning up, preferably leave a LOT of safe margin between the maximum power dissipation it's supposed to handle and what the EL-wire needs

- Add a diode (a normal, 1000V reverse breakdown) and a fuse before the step-down, so it shouldn't cause high-voltage spikes backwards in any case, or if it short circuits, the fuse will blow and won't kill your wheel

- Test the damn thing from a proper CC/CV -power source first, ie. something that can limit current and/or cut the power in case something's wrong, don't just stick it into the batteries without testing

- Consult someone else who knows better than a a hack like me for anything I overlooked in my 2 minute pondering

 

Why not use the USB power port?

[xiiijojjo]

6 minutes ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

Why not use the USB power port?

I'm willing to sacrifice the USB as i don't use it but how would i go about soldering these EL units to the USB?

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

I believe the USB port has 5 volts on it. You could wire a voltage regulator using. 7805 chip and one or two resistors. The resistors value is picked so you can change the 5 volts to 3 volts. 

If i have time i can draw something over the weekend. Otherwise @esaj is pretty good with circuits also. 

Uouvneed to find the cable that goes to the USB port and splice the 5vdc and ground wires with two wires. I am sure 24 gauge is plenty. 

The 5v and ground would connect to your 7805 regulator made to put out 3 volts. 

Mi think you wanted to use the main light to also turn this one. That would be more involved. You would have to build another circuit. There are these mini relays in a chip you could connect the main headlight to the coil part od the DIP chip mini relay that would have a contact on the other side where you would then feed the 3 volts to the led bar. 

Maybe @esaj will make the drawing. 

 

[xiiijojjo]

So here are pictures of the confusing battery system, the power button/indicator and the charge port. 

Could i make an isolated system that can recharge out of these and the EL lights? 

Can anyone help me with the which wires to cut and which to solder etc(maybe in a drawing or photoshopped directions superimposed on the battery picture). I understand i might need a step down converter or some resistors which i don't currently have.

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

27 minutes ago, xiiijojjo said:

So here are pictures of the confusing battery system, the power button/indicator and the charge port. 

Could i make an isolated system that can recharge out of these and the EL lights? 

Can anyone help me with the which wires to cut and which to solder etc(maybe in a drawing or photoshopped directions superimposed on the battery picture). I understand i might need a step down converter or some resistors which i don't currently have.

On the weekend I might be able to help. otherwise next week.  I am traveling for a while.  But to start you up Ebay has probably al the circuits

you might need. For example.

The module below can be connected tapping the power comming out on the USB port connector or other point convenient. to power your lights.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buck-Step-down-LM2596-Power-Converter-Module-DC-4-0-40-to-1-3-37V-LED-Voltmeter-/332189345210?

Or this other one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Super-Mini-3A-DC-DC-Converter-Step-Down-Adjustable-3V-5V-16V-Power-For-RC/281677148128?_trksid=p2045573.c100507.m3226&_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150817211758%26meid%3D19b394a60e7045a4b885414df4c39770%26pid%3D100507%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26

Or this other one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Step-Down-Module-Adjustable-3V-5V-16V-for-RC-Plane-Super-Mini/162143090573?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D40130%26meid%3D97a8d62a1d4e4ca0ac173a7156754637%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D281677148128

For adding a separate one cell battery pack.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5PCS-5V-Micro-USB-1A-18650-Lithium-Battery-Charging-Board-Charger-Module-/201414928326?hash=item2ee543e7c6:g:oEEAAOSwrklVO5q7

[esaj]

15 hours ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

I believe the USB port has 5 volts on it. You could wire a voltage regulator using. 7805 chip and one or two resistors. The resistors value is picked so you can change the 5 volts to 3 volts. 

If i have time i can draw something over the weekend. Otherwise @esaj is pretty good with circuits also. 

Uouvneed to find the cable that goes to the USB port and splice the 5vdc and ground wires with two wires. I am sure 24 gauge is plenty. 

The 5v and ground would connect to your 7805 regulator made to put out 3 volts. 

7805 won't work, it's a 5V regulator and needs something like about 2-3 diode drops (roughly 1.2-2V) higher input voltage (datasheet says 7V) to even work properly. There are 3.3V, 3V and 2.5V LDO ("low dropout", meaning the input voltage won't need to be that much above the regulated output voltage) available. BUT, since the EL-wire seems to draw more current than at least the smaller linear regulators (TO-92 -packaged, typically 100mA max) are able to withstand, you might need a more heavily packaged one. Or use a switching step-down converter, which wastes less power and doesn't heat up as much. Do note that you can't stick a normal voltage regulator directly into a 67.2V pack, it can't handle the voltage. That's just in case you end up going with taking the power from the USB-port.

 

Quote

Mi think you wanted to use the main light to also turn this one. That would be more involved. You would have to build another circuit. There are these mini relays in a chip you could connect the main headlight to the coil part od the DIP chip mini relay that would have a contact on the other side where you would then feed the 3 volts to the led bar. 

Maybe @esaj will make the drawing. 

Don't bother with relays, if the lights don't draw amperes of current, a simple power switch (just checking through the switches I have, they're rated between 2 and 10A continuous) or a power mosfet should work for this... If both the EL-wire and the lights need to be behind one button, it requires some circuitry, as the EL-wire inverter seems to turn on/switch stages (on - blinking slow - blinking fast - off) by getting a signal from the switch, so the light circuit would need to be triggered from there also.

5 hours ago, xiiijojjo said:

So here are pictures of the confusing battery system, the power button/indicator and the charge port. 

Could i make an isolated system that can recharge out of these and the EL lights? 

Can anyone help me with the which wires to cut and which to solder etc(maybe in a drawing or photoshopped directions superimposed on the battery picture). I understand i might need a step down converter or some resistors which i don't currently have.

Don't recall ever seeing a battery configuration like that before... The XT60-plug is likely the discharge-side, but where do all those connectors go, into the mainboard? It's hard to tell from the picture even how many wires are going to the connectors. Since there's only one wire going from one pack to the next, I'd guess the packs themselves are in series, so it might be possible to break them down into lower voltage packs (but that's not probably for the faint of heart). Be careful with the batteries anyway, even if they're "empty", they still pack quite a punch.

As for the EL-wires themselves, I took apart the 2 x AA -battery driven unit I have and poked around.

 

There's a few apparently "optional" resistors that are left out (and a place for a diode and larger capacitor on the other side, that weren't there either, saving on costs ). Couldn't identify the chip in the middle (it has marking "6612", but no part having that number had a pinout that made sense with how this circuit is built). Based on http://ch00ftech.com/2012/03/25/el-wire-is-spanish-for-the-wire/ , it might be some small low-cost microcontroller, that's basically just handling the changing between the on-blinking-off -states.This one doesn't have that secondary transistor like the one that ch00ftech took apart, but a few scribblings of the circuit I made into a paper, it looks like it's a different topology than on the one that he had... I didn't try to figure out the circuitry that much, since I don't know what the chip does (at least one pin from it goes straight into the transformer coil, so it's not just to start/excite an analog oscillator there?). On the other side's theres a single PNP SS8550 -transistor (don't know why ch00ftech says it's a P-channel FET?), the transformer coil with center-tapped coil on primary side, and the power button. A "fun" thing I noticed, I first thought that the microswitch is soldered on all four points, and will short the positive input straight into the negative when pressed, but the pin marked as "WTF?!!" is actually unconnected   If it weren't, or it somehow gets contact with the surrounding copper, pushing the button would cause the circuit to connect through the blue lines I drew, shorting the positive input straight into negative...   But instead, it just pulls the pin 3 of the IC to ground (there's a 10k pullup resistor keeping it high when the switch is not pushed), so that's what switches the state (on -> blinking fast -> blinking slow -> off) when the pin is triggered from high to low.

Anyway, the main point was to take some measurements from the damn thing.

I first hooked it up to a power supply with overcurrent protection (CC/CV) set at 3V and working the current up from 100mA, so I won't fry anything by accident and to see how much current it draws... seems to be about 195ma (0.195A) at start, and going slightly above 200mA after things warm up.

The secondary coil of the transformer puts up quite a hefty voltage. With 3V input, I measured 107V AC RMS with the benchtop-meter, and after knowing it won't blow up my scope front-ends or meters, I then measured closer to 300V peak-to-peak on oscilloscope, the oscillator is running around 1.5kHz. The annoying sound the inverter makes is probably the base frequency resonating in the coil...

 

Yeah, don't touch the output wires... although it probably won't give much current, you'll likely get a good zap at least.

On the input side, there's some noise visible, at the same frequency:

Probably adding that missing capacitor would filter most of it out...

I was using an EL-"tape" (thin, but wide, not actual "wire") as load for the measurements shown, but found out later that using a blue-colored EL-wire that the voltage goes even higher (with 3V input, about 130V RMS / 370V peak-to-peak, but "only" about 100mA of current)... Raising the input voltage from 3V to 3.3V, the voltage went up to 145V RMS / 410Vpp. I didn't want to go higher so I don't break something. The inverter's unregulated, so probably it would self-destruct by driving the voltage to some insane value if driven without load or with higher input voltage (unless the IC there has some sort of protection for that), which wouldn't be a big deal, but risking damage to the scope front-end or my benchmeter is not something I want to try, in case there's some freak high-voltage transient  

Since it seems that the current varies between different wires and of course lengths, it's probably best to assume that the current can be relatively high (several hundreds of milliamperes, better over- than underestimate, make it a nice 0.5A? ). I have no idea how much current you can pull from the USB-port of the wheel (if using that), but likely at least 0.5A. Can't vouch on that, so if your board fries, don't blame me  I'm just a hobbyist on electronics...

At least in the case of this inverter, also the output voltage raises fast with input voltage, and I don't know how much input voltage the IC can stand (or what kind yours is anyway), so probably best to keep the input voltage at 3...3.3V max (that's about what two full AA -batteries in series give), I also don't know how much voltage the EL-wires themselves can stand, but they probably burn out faster with higher voltage? They do wear out anyway, so maybe plan the attachment so that you can replace them:

On average El Wire brightness will become half as bright after 2800 - 3000 hours running at 2000Hz. This is based on 6 to 8 hours on each day and powered off the rest of the day. 

A high Hz output from the inverter makes the El Wire brighter but it also shortens the life if it. For example, if an inverter runs at 10,000 Hz EL Wire will become half as bright at about 450 hours.

Although, if it's being run at around 1.5-2kHz (my inverter's different than yours, so I don't know what the frequency in yours is), closer to 3000 hours is plenty.

You'd either need at least a TO-220 -packaged linear regulator (possibly with a heat-sink) and some filtering capacitors, or a switching buck-converter (there I can't help, designing those is way out of my league, at least at this point) to drop the 5V from the USB port to 3 or 3.3V. I have no idea how good or bad the ebay/aliexpress/whatever cheap converters are, they might work, but again I can't give any guarantees... Other options include a heavy-duty step-down to drop the voltage from the battery directly (but that's up to 67.2V for full battery), so it's the bulkiest and most expensive (at least for better quality) option.

Just as an example, probably about the simplest setup with a linear regulator would be something like:

The diodes may not even be necessary (I picked 1N4007 just because that's what I've usually used in such ), a fuse might not be a bad idea just in case... I marked the output capacitor (C2) as "100uF or more", simply based on the datasheet recommendations for LT1117:

The LT1117 family of regulators requires an output capacitor as part of the device frequency compensation. A minimum of 10μF of tantalum or 50μF of aluminum electrolytic is required. The ESR of the output capacitor should be less than 0.5Ω.

Normally, capacitor values on the order of 100μF are used in the output of many regulators to ensure good load transient response with large load current changes. Output capacitance can be increased without limit and larger values of output capacitance further improve stability and transient response.

I put D1 there "just in case" a higher voltage transient somehow kicks back from the inverter, although my measurements with the scope didn't show such happening. Probably could be left out as well. As for the D2-diode:

Diodes between input and output are not usually needed. The internal diode between the output and input pins of the device can withstand microsecond surge currents of 10A to 20A. Normal power supply cycling can not generate currents of this magnitude. Only with extremely large output capacitors, such as 1000μF and larger, and with the input pin instantaneously shorted to ground can damage occur. A crowbar circuit at the input of the LT1117 in combination with a large output capacitor could generate currents large enough to cause damage. In this case a diode from output to input is recommended

So, technically, with low output capacitance, the diode wouldn't be needed.

At pure-guess worst-case continuous current of 0.5A, the power dissipation at the U1 (with D1) would be around (5V - 0.7V - 3.3V) * 0.5A = 0.5W. The TO-220 -packaged regulator might work even without a heatsink at that point. Without the D1-diode, the power dissipation goes a bit higher at 0.5A, about 0.85W, in which case a heatsink might already be needed. Either way, adding a heatsink on the thing won't hurt. I don't know how much you know of electronics, if you can't or don't want to build your own circuits on a veroboard or such, it's probably much easier to go with a ready-made switching buck-converter.

If you want your (separate) lights to turn on with the EL-wires, then you're likely going to have to build a circuit from separate components. I can help with that, but won't start designing one right now

[Rehab1]

There is strong stuff going on over here that I need to read further! I'll soon be installing a 12v ventilation fan in the ACM but the voltage regulator I purchased is 60 v to 12v. I may just use a rechargeable 12 v battery pack. I connected the fan to the pack and it ran for an entire day.

[esaj]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

There is strong stuff going on over here that I need to read further! I'll soon be installing a 12v ventilation fan in the ACM but the voltage regulator I purchased is 60 v to 12v. I may just use a rechargeable 12 v battery pack. I connected the fan to the pack and it ran for an entire day.

If you have the space in the wheel, I'd go with the separate pack. Less to worry in case something goes wrong, like the fan getting stuck and short circuiting. Rechargeable NiMH, although lower capacity for same volume and needing more cells in series due to lower voltages, are much safer than Li-Ion. Still I'd put a fuse there, things will get hot if short-circuit isn't cut. Just last night, a fuse I added in the wiring saved my ass when I miswired an unprotected 5500mAh 3S (about 11.1V nominal) LiPo-pack to a robot controller (basically I short-circuited the whole pack)...  I've used 6S (7.2V nominal) NiMH-pack there before, but the new controller needed higher voltage, and the LiPo was the only option.

It's one thing to give advice on stuff working on something like alkaline-batteries, which are relatively harmless, but I'm a bit uneasy when people ask for advice on adding mods that use the wheel batteries directly, but still try... Not only are they dangerous just by their nature, and as high-voltage packs as in the wheels, but if the mod backfires and short-circuits the pack during riding, it will at least cut the power of the entire wheel, as the BMS protection triggers, faceplanting you immediately. If you accidentally short-circuit a basic alkaline/NiMH/NiCD -battery for a short while (a few seconds), pretty much nothing will happen, even after a longer while they will mostly just start to warm up (of course depending on voltages/currents...). Do that with a lithium-ion (especially unprotected LiPo-pouch cells without BMS), and the whole thing might blow up in your face pretty much immediately in the worst case...

Using the 5V-line from the USB-port of the mainboard is "safer", but if the mod short-circuits the port, there's no telling whether it'll "just" fry the port or takes the mainboard with it (you'd think they'd short-circuit protect the ports, but do they?). Again, putting a fuse between the power source and the device is a good idea...

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

2 hours ago, esaj said:

If you have the space in the wheel, I'd go with the separate pack. Less to worry in case something goes wrong, like the fan getting stuck and short circuiting. Rechargeable NiMH, although lower capacity for same volume and needing more cells in series due to lower voltages, are much safer than Li-Ion. Still I'd put a fuse there, things will get hot if short-circuit isn't cut. Just last night, a fuse I added in the wiring saved my ass when I miswired an unprotected 5500mAh 3S (about 11.1V nominal) LiPo-pack to a robot controller (basically I short-circuited the whole pack)...  I've used 6S (7.2V nominal) NiMH-pack there before, but the new controller needed higher voltage, and the LiPo was the only option.

It's one thing to give advice on stuff working on something like alkaline-batteries, which are relatively harmless, but I'm a bit uneasy when people ask for advice on adding mods that use the wheel batteries directly, but still try... Not only are they dangerous just by their nature, and as high-voltage packs as in the wheels, but if the mod backfires and short-circuits the pack during riding, it will at least cut the power of the entire wheel, as the BMS protection triggers, faceplanting you immediately. If you accidentally short-circuit a basic alkaline/NiMH/NiCD -battery for a short while (a few seconds), pretty much nothing will happen, even after a longer while they will mostly just start to warm up (of course depending on voltages/currents...). Do that with a lithium-ion (especially unprotected LiPo-pouch cells without BMS), and the whole thing might blow up in your face pretty much immediately in the worst case...

Using the 5V-line from the USB-port of the mainboard is "safer", but if the mod short-circuits the port, there's no telling whether it'll "just" fry the port or takes the mainboard with it (you'd think they'd short-circuit protect the ports, but do they?). Again, putting a fuse between the power source and the device is a good idea...

  I agree @esaj.  Its a good idea to use a separate power source and not disturb the control board or mess around with the Battery packs. It should be simple enough to do a 2S or 3s pack, put a li-charging chip for pennies, put a second USB port to charge it, put a 12towhatever voltage regulator chip. and a switch to turn on and off. I think all the parts should be under $10. drill and mount the second chargin USB of the case. and keep the small pack inside the wheel to drive lights.

By the way. What software you use to draw your circuits? does it have simulation also?

 

[esaj]

7 hours ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

By the way. What software you use to draw your circuits? does it have simulation also?

LTSpice, it's actually a SPICE-simulation software, but "good enough" for simple schematic drawing also:  http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/  

It's free and relatively easy to use (of course there's some learning curve). I'm still using the "XP" -version (marked as VI), although there's new XVII -version. I have collected a library of component-models around the net, and the last time I tried, they didn't work XVII (maybe fixed nowadays), so haven't changed over yet. For almost anything, and especially more complex circuits, it's far more convenient to simulate and alter them in the simulator than building them on breadboard (of course, since you probably won't know all the real world values and things affecting, it's still a good idea to breadboard before making an actual PCB ). As an example, building and tuning the values of this mosfet H-bridge (old design of mine from maybe about a year ago) would have been pain if done solely on paper/breadboard:

 

I also use other software, like Kicad ( http://kicad-pcb.org/ ) for drawing "cleaner" schematics and board-design. For milling my own PCB's, I do the toolpaths with FlatCAM ( http://flatcam.org/ ) and control my small CNC with bCNC ( https://github.com/vlachoudis/bCNC ).

 

[Rehab1]

11 hours ago, esaj said:

If you have the space in the wheel, I'd go with the separate pack. Less to worry in case something goes wrong, like the fan getting stuck and short circuiting. Rechargeable NiMH, although lower capacity for same volume and needing more cells in series due to lower voltages, are much safer than Li-Ion. Still I'd put a fuse there, things will get hot if short-circuit isn't cut. Just last night, a fuse I added in the wiring saved my ass when I miswired an unprotected 5500mAh 3S (about 11.1V nominal) LiPo-pack to a robot controller (basically I short-circuited the whole pack)...  I've used 6S (7.2V nominal) NiMH-pack there before, but the new controller needed higher voltage, and the LiPo was the only option.

You have convinced me! Yes there is plenty of room for the rechargeable pack on the opposiite shell of the main board. I plan to locate the recharging port and on/off switch on the outside. 

Any major sparks from your mishap? A fuse is a good idea!  By the way your lab is awesome!

[esaj]

6 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

You have convinced me! Yes there is plenty of room for the rechargeable pack on the opposiite shell of the main board. I plan to locate the recharging port and on/off switch on the outside. 

Any major sparks from your mishap? A fuse is a good idea!  

No sparks, just a loud "SNAP" as the 5A fuse went when the connector positive-pin touched ground... Without the fuse, there would have probably been some fireworks   And maybe worse...

 

6 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

By the way your lab is awesome!

Thanks, although I need to figure out how to use the space better, getting kind of crowded with all the component drawers/cabinets, tools, hardware, unfinished projects and other stuff. It would probably also help to clean up the stuff from the desk once in a while...