People in cars ignoring EUC riders right of way

[LanghamP]

I drove my car to and from work over the past two days, and hadn't driven my car in such a long time that I had a very different perspective from usual.

Specifically, driving a car on my local roads makes you appreciate the engineering that went into shaping fast flowing traffic, where you generally do not have to turn your steering wheel very much. There are not many intersection left that are "traditional"; most have doglegs that encourage a yield on red, and I find I simply don't have time to look left while looking for pedestrians (I didn't see a single one at an intersection by the way). While there's sidewalks everywhere, roads are completely car-centric. 

[LanghamP]

Apparently crossing the street on a crosswalk has become illegal if you're on a cell phone.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/29/us/smart-phones-crosswalks-hawaii-illegal/index.html

 

[Dingfelder]

Wow I never even thought of that.  I suppose with your head down it could be somewhat dangerous ... but talking in a crosswalk seems harmless.

[dmethvin]

That's silly there's nothing dangerous about using a cell phone while just walking.

 

[LanghamP]

 

12 hours ago, dmethvin said:

That's silly there's nothing dangerous about using a cell phone while just walking.

 

Most of those pedestrians are being both reckless and not following the laws of civilization but there were a few in there that were crossing in a crosswalk. Cars are required to stop for pedestrians in crosswalks.

[RayRay]

Getting back to original topic... This is for night riding (or jogging/whatever).

Noxgear Tracer360:  Max visibility lightweight, intelligently-illuminated with 3M reflective torso belt.

[WARPed1701D]

53 minutes ago, RayRay said:

Getting back to original topic... This is for night riding (or jogging/whatever).

Noxgear Tracer360:  Max visibility lightweight, intelligently-illuminated with 3M reflective torso belt.

I like the idea of this but I wish forward facing color could be set independent of rear facing color. I like to abide by expected lighting to reduce confusion so white at the front and red at the rear. The less drivers get confused by what they are seeing the better. I wonder if this can be set to strobe a single color vs multi-color.

[dmethvin]

Something about that design worries me, it seems like the very definition of "target on your back". I think I'd prefer a highly visible reflective vest combined with a good front-facing headlight. Or maybe avoid riding at night. The few times I have ridden in real darkness with just the EUC headlight it's been super sketchy, it's very hard to see any obstacles or problems in front of you.

[Dingfelder]

13 hours ago, WARPed1701D said:

I like the idea of this but I wish forward facing color could be set independent of rear facing color. I like to abide by expected lighting to reduce confusion so white at the front and red at the rear. The less drivers get confused by what they are seeing the better. I wonder if this can be set to strobe a single color vs multi-color.

That's what I was thinking before I read your post saying it.  If I were a driver, I thought, I wouldn't be sure what that was and might be pretty likely to assume it was a light somehow affixed to a building rather than something mobile.  It's not what I'm used to seeing on bicyclists or even pedestrians who get themselves done up in safety gear.

It would definitely help if it were red in the back.  That's a cue driving has taught us to look for.

[RayRay]

2 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

That's what I was thinking before I read your post saying it.  If I were a driver, I thought, I wouldn't be sure what that was and might be pretty likely to assume it was a light somehow affixed to a building rather than something mobile.  It's not what I'm used to seeing on bicyclists or even pedestrians who get themselves done up in safety gear.

It would definitely help if it were red in the back.  That's a cue driving has taught us to look for.

"A red blinking LED is less likely to be seen by our peripheral vision than green or blue", according to the 'science' behind Tracer360's color choices.  "So it’s really not enough to just put on any colored reflective vest and snap on a red blinking LED." 

That being said, a head or chest mounted headlight would illuminate the situation and likely end any confusion (vis-a-vis facing orientation)...

[Dingfelder]

It's not just being seen, by far.  And there are more types of vision than peripheral, for that matter.  (We can start with the ordinary ones.)  It's interpreting what's seen.  Target fixation and confusing visual cues and the like. 

I'm used to seeing colors in the cool spectrum, like white and blue, as signaling a car coming toward me, or as ordinary lighting in fixed emplacements, as in stores and street lights.

As an odd example that I hope isn't too incomprehensible due to my inability to explain it, I drive down a friend's driveway nightly.  He has solar lights along a curve.  At some point I drive by one after another, going forward past each one.  They all seem to flee behind me as I go forward.  Eventually I hit a spot where I am not seeming to go past them anymore; they seem to be going in the other direction - ahead of me.  It's because they come into my visual field around the corner in a peculiar way..  It's visually confusing.  So much so that it was near dizzying for a long time.  

If I see white lights -- or anything, for that matter --  I am likely more likely to interpret them as something matching my experience than something different.  Can't escape that.

In my experience, white lights and other lights in the cool spectrum are oncoming headlights or neon lights attached to buildings.  I will like think they are either stationary(buildings) or moving toward me(vehicles).

If you want me to think I am looking at the back of you, then white/cool spectrum lights are the exact opposite of what you should be using.  My experience, which is the experience of at least the last half century in which I've been alive and therefore effectively everyone living today who still drives, is that lights signifying I am behind something are red.  

Proceed accordingly.  But you really can't argue your way out of it.  It's experience, as noted, born of half a century whether anyone likes it or not. 

And thus my caution to others:  Try not to confuse them. Even better if you can do it by not going the polar opposite of what they're used to. 

After all, it's your life or death.  It's not me who's gonna die because I hit someone on a EUC who is convinced he was thoroughly in the right.

[RayRay]

I'm not arguing against common sense, only pointing out an unconventional approach. I think the fact that Noxgear is arguing that their design is based on 'visual science' is a contentious assertion worthy of some debate. Also, for the record, their Tracer360 product is capable of displaying all solid colors individually (including red). They go out of their way to display more color options as a premium selling point, but there are plenty of cheaper knockoffs/alternatives to be found...

This last one is not cheap, but a well thought out design that also deserve consideration...

[LanghamP]

I just bought an action can as today I was crossing, by foot, a crosswalk and while most cars did at least slow down one car laid on the horn to get me away, and I had to yank my unicycle back. The car did touch me.

Not sure what to do about these cars ignoring pedestrians on crosswalks, except to buy an action for when they run over my unicycle (I usually trolley across intersections).

[MaxLinux]

On 4/22/2017 at 5:02 PM, JimB said:

Always assume that a car doesn't see you.  Even if you have the right of way, don't pull in front of a car until you make eye contact with the driver!

Whenever I see a car at an intersection, I slow way down and give the car an opportunity to go. I wait until I am sure the car is holding back before I cross. I never depend on the car driver to let me cross because "I have the right of way." This is when I ride across intersections. I often carry my wheel across busy or multi-lane intersections, because I find it easier to watch all around me and react to unexpected situations.

[litewave]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

I just bought an action can as today I was crossing, by foot, a crosswalk and while most cars did at least slow down one car laid on the horn to get me away, and I had to yank my unicycle back. The car did touch me.

Not sure what to do about these cars ignoring pedestrians on crosswalks, except to buy an action for when they run over my unicycle (I usually trolley across intersections).

 

What is an action can? An aerosol lubricant? A can of air with an air horn attached? I had a close call yesterday and one last week, so I'm keen to find out.

The first incident was a driver looking down at their phone and texting at night as I rode through a parking lot – it was an ~60year-old woman, not a teen . Yesterday, it was a driver with head locked perpendicular to the direction of travel. [After pausing and observing a car as I proceeded down a sidewalk along a busy road, I crossed a drive to an office/business complex; the driver was approaching slowly and appeared to be coming to a stop, so I thought it safe to zip quickly across. Unfortunately, it was very difficult to see into the car's interior until it was 3-4m away; I didn't see that that the driver's head was locked at a 90deg angle to the left looking at oncoming traffic - but not at what was in front of him. Fortunately, he couldn't see approaching traffic very well and did not execute the turn until I was almost clear. I yelled three times but he was so focussed in the other direction, he didn't turn his head until he was inches from clipping me.] It's a tough call to stop at every possible crossing when riding along arterials with driveways, carpark exits, and side streets every 50-100m. It's a tougher call when riding any significant distance, wanting to make decent time. I generally can make eye contact with all drivers and signal with my arm that I would like to cross. Much of the time, drivers will wave me on, or even back up to give me more space, but maybe 1% of the time, there is the inevitable, potentially deadly, distracted driver. 

[MaxLinux]

7 minutes ago, litewave said:

What is an action can?

I am pretty sure he meant action cam. An example would be GoPro. Strapped on with a chest harness, for example, this would be similar to a dash cam in a car.

[litewave]

58 minutes ago, MaxLinux said:

I am pretty sure he meant action cam. An example would be GoPro. Strapped on with a chest harness, for example, this would be similar to a dash cam in a car.

I considered that, but don't see any real upside to the strategy. I have a chest mount and have experimented with a wearable gimbal with underwhelming results. Capturing the action is hit-or-miss at best, particularly when the threat is a side impact. Also, it seems to cause suspicion and distrust with passers-by, who might otherwise be "on your side". Instead of being the cool person zipping by on an electric unicycle, you're now the jerk or perv filming people who just want to enjoy a stroll, bike ride, or get from A-to-B without big brother spying on them.

[JimB]

3 hours ago, MaxLinux said:

I am pretty sure he meant action cam. An example would be GoPro. Strapped on with a chest harness, for example, this would be similar to a dash cam in a car.

I don't really see the point in having a camera other than having something to watch while you're recovering in the hospital.

Referring back to what I said on page 1...

On 4/22/2017 at 2:02 PM, JimB said:

If you're a pedestrian, biker, or EUCer, if you get into a collision with a car, it doesn't matter who is at fault - YOU LOSE.

[...]

It's always better to be careful than to be a hood ornament (or worse).

 

[Dingfelder]

6 hours ago, litewave said:

 

What is an action can? An aerosol lubricant? A can of air with an air horn attached? I had a close call yesterday and one last week, so I'm keen to find out.

The first incident was a driver looking down at their phone and texting at night as I rode through a parking lot – it was an ~60year-old woman, not a teen . Yesterday, it was a driver with head locked perpendicular to the direction of travel. [After pausing and observing a car as I proceeded down a sidewalk along a busy road, I crossed a drive to an office/business complex; the driver was approaching slowly and appeared to be coming to a stop, so I thought it safe to zip quickly across. Unfortunately, it was very difficult to see into the car's interior until it was 3-4m away; I didn't see that that the driver's head was locked at a 90deg angle to the left looking at oncoming traffic - but not at what was in front of him. Fortunately, he couldn't see approaching traffic very well and did not execute the turn until I was almost clear. I yelled three times but he was so focussed in the other direction, he didn't turn his head until he was inches from clipping me.] It's a tough call to stop at every possible crossing when riding along arterials with driveways, carpark exits, and side streets every 50-100m. It's a tougher call when riding any significant distance, wanting to make decent time. I generally can make eye contact with all drivers and signal with my arm that I would like to cross. Much of the time, drivers will wave me on, or even back up to give me more space, but maybe 1% of the time, there is the inevitable, potentially deadly, distracted driver. 

We've got a lot of this in my town, which is a senior citizen haven.

The scary thing is, even when the incapacitated ones see you, it doesn't necessarily mean anything.  Along with simple aging can come a vastly diminished reaction time.  But just as bad, as dementia increases, from what I've seen there is a corresponding drop in judgment and ability to fix blame on yourself.

Take my neighbor, for example.  He is in an electric wheelchair.  Not only does he plow into stationary objects all the time -- much more amazingly still, he keeps on going!  Enough to spend several seconds plowing into a wall instead of just taking his hands off the controls for a moment to figure out his next move.  Enough to move a whole bed or big heavy couch a number of feet out of line. It's not like he's going at high speed either.  It's just that he makes his decision to go in a certain direction, and he cannot change his mind about it once he gets going ... not for a long time.  

It was the same when his dementia was less.  He hit his own garage door many times after starting up the car.  And then he started to keep going, too.  It's just that it's even worse now.

So whenever I am on or near a road, especially around here, I never assume the other person is capable, smart, or has quick reactions.  Often they don't.  And even if they have one of those qualities, sometimes one is not enough.  You need all those qualities functioning at a reasonable level.  And many people are just not up to the task.

[Dingfelder]

5 hours ago, litewave said:

I considered that, but don't see any real upside to the strategy. I have a chest mount and have experimented with a wearable gimbal with underwhelming results. Capturing the action is hit-or-miss at best, particularly when the threat is a side impact. Also, it seems to cause suspicion and distrust with passers-by, who might otherwise be "on your side". Instead of being the cool person zipping by on an electric unicycle, you're now the jerk or perv filming people who just want to enjoy a stroll, bike ride, or get from A-to-B without big brother spying on them.

I gave up the idea of pursuing my interest in photography any further because of that.  Literally the first time I ever tried to use my camera phone, a girl kept not only photobombing my frame, but giving me a look like I was a perv or something.  Sorry honey, you may be in the frame, but not the entire universe and all the people in it are all about you ... but who is anyone going to believe, a middle-aged guy or a teenager?

Considering my favorite subjects are kids, landscapes, and buildings, I can choose between being thought a perv or a terrorist, possibly even get manhandled by idiot minimum wage security guards with a grudge against life they see an opportunity to work out on casual passersby.  No thanks.  

[Keith]

52 minutes ago, Dingfelder said:

He hit his own garage door many times after starting up the car.  And then he started to keep going, too.  It's just that it's even worse now.

That reminds me of when we first moved into our current house 28 years ago. Several of our friends were installing a new kitchen for us whilst we went on Honeymoon. When we got back it was to find the street in a horrendous mess and our friends keen to tell the tale. Turns out they had heard an almighty crash and rushed out into the street in time to see our very elderly neighbour opposite come crashing through his closed  garage door in reverse and straight through his closed front gates, by the time the car had crossed the road still accelerating and smashed through our next door neighbours gates it had turned enough that it proceeded to go through the front gardens smashing through the garden walls between each house, it only stopped when it hit a wall thick enough to lift the rear wheels off of the ground. One of my friends had to rush over and kill the ignition. The crash they had originally heard was him hitting his rear garage wall, he then somehow got the car into reverse. After the incident he swore the car had done all this itself and kept driving, but my 85 year old next door neighbour sold his car the following week saying he realised now he was too old to drive.

After describing the incident one of my friends asked: "Are you going to have a housewarming party?"

Me: "Yes - Why do ask?"

Him: "you aren't going invite your neighbour across the road are you".

"why on earth not?"

"Well  . . . . . . . . . You don't want any gatecrashers at your party do you!"

 

 

[LanghamP]

6 hours ago, litewave said:

I considered that, but don't see any real upside to the strategy. I have a chest mount and have experimented with a wearable gimbal with underwhelming results. Capturing the action is hit-or-miss at best, particularly when the threat is a side impact. Also, it seems to cause suspicion and distrust with passers-by, who might otherwise be "on your side". Instead of being the cool person zipping by on an electric unicycle, you're now the jerk or perv filming people who just want to enjoy a stroll, bike ride, or get from A-to-B without big brother spying on them.

Without my EUC I can jump back or whatever, but with the EUC it's going to get run over one of these days, so the action cam is just there to get the license plate number and hence have insurance pay up. Remember, these cars are passing through red lights and stop signs on crosswalk, and so you cannot just meet their eyes and make sure they see you; a small but significant minority of cars are irritated that you are in <their> space. 

[WARPed1701D]

10 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I just bought an action can as today I was crossing, by foot, a crosswalk and while most cars did at least slow down one car laid on the horn to get me away, and I had to yank my unicycle back. The car did touch me.

Not sure what to do about these cars ignoring pedestrians on crosswalks, except to buy an action for when they run over my unicycle (I usually trolley across intersections).

I think an HD action cam is a great idea. Preferably a 360 degree one but any is better than none. I see terrible behavior from drivers, cyclists, and pedestrians everyday and would love to be able to report the serious infractions. Plus if I get hit there is a chance of something getting caught on camera that will allow prosecution and the removal of a dangerous person from the road for a while.  Getting hit by cars is a big deal where I live. Hit and run is also popular with drunk, drugged, and geriatric drivers. One recent incident had the elderly driver continuing 5 blocks with the lifeless body of the victim stuck in the windshield. Finally the body fell off at a corner and the elderly gentleman was able to continue his journey without the hitchhiker.

An action cam should be a purchase that comes after safety and high vis gear but after that I think it is a great purchase. I for one want every opportunity to catch any bastard that hits me and buggers off or acts on a manner causing me to crash.

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, WARPed1701D said:

 

An action cam should be a purchase that comes after safety and high vis gear but after that I think it is a great purchase. I for one want every opportunity to catch any bastard that hits me and buggers off or acts on a manner causing me to crash.

Finally, someone who gets it.

While most drivers are just fine, I have encountered enough drivers who are absolutely convinced that pedestrians are in the wrong. Indeed, they are enraged that you dare cross in the crosswalk and slow them down. Undoubtedly they think hitting you is an inconvenience, and indeed they'd be right as St Louis does not prosecute or even ticket car drivers who kill pedestrians in crosswalk as several recent cases this year show. They do not really care if they hit you, and indeed they might go out of their way to bump you off as a way of teaching you a lesson for daring to cross in front of them.

My goal is rather modest; it's not to punish these drivers or teach them a lesson or try to get them off the road. Rather, it is just to get the license plate number if I have to jump away from the car but I cannot bring the unicycle with me, and so the unicycle gets run over. I doubt these car drivers would be apologetic and pay for the EUC unless they were legally compelled to.

[litewave]

2 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Without my EUC I can jump back or whatever, but with the EUC it's going to get run over one of these days, so the action cam is just there to get the license plate number and hence have insurance pay up. Remember, these cars are passing through red lights and stop signs on crosswalk, and so you cannot just meet their eyes and make sure they see you; a small but significant minority of cars are irritated that you are in <their> space. 

 

Nice theory, but that will be hard to do if you are immobilized or unconscious on the ground. Again, unless the camera just happens to be pointing in the right direction, and it is a high-quality piece of kit (minimum 60fps at 4k), and the lighting is right, and the camera survives, well, you get the idea.

 

7 hours ago, JimB said:

I don't really see the point in having a camera other than having something to watch while you're recovering in the hospital.

Referring back to what I said on page 1...

 

Yes, that was an excellent post and well-taken. I ride as if invisible (as I did when I rode motorcycles), but there is only so much one can do in busy areas, other than avoid them altogether. I almost never ride in the street, but even on sidewalks there is risk. When I first started riding an EUC 18 months ago, a driver almost jumped the curb and hit me, apparently because the sight of an EUC was so startling.