KS16S vs KS14C initial impressions. NOT a review.

[Trucktent]

I just got my KS16S up and running. These are my initial impressions of the KS16S as it compares to my KS14C. I've only put a couple miles on the 16 so let's not call this a review.

A little background. I rode the 14C 800 watt motor with 640 watt hour battery a few thousand miles in the last year. I commute with it 25 miles a day most days. I use it for errands. I almost forgot how to walk. It did most everything well. Some things not so well. It was a little small for the rougher sections of the commute and tended to overheat on the hills. If it didn't break I would still be ridding it. 

The 16S rides like a KingSong. Most of the difference is just because it's a bigger wheel. The 16S is a lot heavier than the 14C.  The 16 weighs 37.2 lbs on my bathroom scale vs 30 lbs for the 14.

It turns tighter then expected. At angles the 14 would scrape peddles the 16 still clears the ground. The 14 is still way more maneuverable as expected but the 16 is no slouch.  I keep expecting to drag a peddle and have to step off but it hasn't happened yet. 

The 14 peddles are notoriously slippery. The 16 peddles have grip tape to the other extreme, might as well be Velcro. You have to lift your foot completely off to reposition. I didn't notice much difference in the feel of the padding. The 16 is wider but it doesn't feel that different from the 14.

Cons so far and these may change as I gain experience on the 16: peddles feel too short. Riding up or down a steep slope feels like I need more peddle or I am going to tip off the front or back. I feel I need more leverage to stop and go; Perceived lack of torque. The 16 had problems starting up a hill that the 14 could easily start up on. Once going the 16 with 1200 watts easily powered up what the 14 struggled with. 

The bigger wheel is more stable at speed. Bad sidewalks are so much more rideable.  Curbs with the bigger wheel do not feel easier to yet. 

Overall I think I am going to like the 16S for commuting. 

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, Trucktent said:

I just got my KS16S up and running. These are my initial impressions of the KS16S as it compares to my KS14C. I've only put a couple miles on the 16 so let's not call this a review.

A little background. I rode the 14C 800 watt motor with 640 watt hour battery a few thousand miles in the last year. I commute with it 25 miles a day most days. I use it for errands. I almost forgot how to walk. It did most everything well. Some things not so well. It was a little small for the rougher sections of the commute and tended to overheat on the hills. If it didn't break I would still be ridding it. 

The 16S rides like a KingSong. Most of the difference is just because it's a bigger wheel. The 16S is a lot heavier than the 14C.  The 16 weighs 37.2 lbs on my bathroom scale vs 30 lbs for the 14.

It turns tighter then expected. At angles the 14 would scrape peddles the 16 still clears the ground. The 14 is still way more maneuverable as expected but the 16 is no slouch.  I keep expecting to drag a peddle and have to step off but it hasn't happened yet. 

The 14 peddles are notoriously slippery. The 16 peddles have grip tape to the other extreme, might as well be Velcro. You have to lift your foot completely off to reposition. I didn't notice much difference in the feel of the padding. The 16 is wider but it doesn't feel that different from the 14.

Cons so far and these may change as I gain experience on the 16: peddles feel too short. Riding up or down a steep slope feels like I need more peddle or I am going to tip off the front or back. I feel I need more leverage to stop and go; Perceived lack of torque. The 16 had problems starting up a hill that the 14 could easily start up on. Once going the 16 with 1200 watts easily powered up what the 14 struggled with. 

The bigger wheel is more stable at speed. Bad sidewalks are so much more rideable.  Curbs with the bigger wheel do not feel easier to yet. 

Overall I think I am going to like the 16S for commuting. 

Nice 'review' 

The biggest complaint that I have with my 14C is the discomfort of the pedals. You get used to it, but they aren't anything near as comfortable as my Gotway wheels. The pedals are decently sized, but I think what causes the discomfort is the angle of the pedal - they don't fold down level with the pavement.

Are the 16S pedals level with the ground or do they have the same angle as the 14C?

[Trucktent]

The 14C peddle side slope angle measures about 10 degrees, the16S measures near 7 degrees. Both are fairly pronounced. The KingSong's have a stiff ride. More responsive but harder on the lower legs. After you toughen up its no longer a concern.

The only other wheel I have ever demo'ed was a SoloWheel. It felt like somewhere between skiing deep powder and dancing on a waterbed. Weirdly comfortable but not quite right.

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, Trucktent said:

The 14C peddle side slope angle measures about 10 degrees, the16S measures near 7 degrees. Both are fairly pronounced. The KingSong's have a stiff ride. More responsive but harder on the lower legs. After you toughen up its no longer a concern.

The only other wheel I have ever demo'ed was a SoloWheel. It felt like somewhere between skiing deep powder and dancing on a waterbed. Weirdly comfortable but not quite right.

Thanks. 7 degrees might be enough to make a difference. Someday I may have the opportunity to try one.

[Trucktent]

I just rode 30 miles today. I climbed a bunch of hills. Still have plenty of range left in the battery.

my initial impressions haven't changed much. 

The 16S rides much stiffer then the 14C but I'm getting used to it. Things I don't quite like is that it starts and accelerates slowly compared to the less powerful 14C.  It does not like starting on inclines. Hopefully the sluggish starts will be addressed in upcoming firmwear updates. 

There is not enough peddle input. Going up a hill requires aggressive forward lean, to the point you will nearly fall off to maintain speed or accelerate.  Same on your heels going downhill or when breaking. I am able to compensate by forcing the body of the wheel forward or back by squeezing my legs, but that is a lot of effort. It climbs well after you adjust your riding style to use the clamp of death to force a lean.

The 16S travels distance much better than the 14. Better on nearly all terrain. Very stable at speed. Tilt back is not concerning when it happens.  

I am liking the 16S much better the more I ride it.  

[US69]

51 minutes ago, Trucktent said:

It does not like starting on inclines. Hopefully the sluggish starts will be addressed in upcoming firmwear updates. 

There is not enough peddle input. Going up a hill requires aggressive forward lean, to the point you will nearly fall off to maintain speed or accelerate.  Same on your heels going downhill or when breaking.

I would guess that's just the normal difference in the size of the wheel.

Bigger wheels are in General a bit more sluggish and not as agile as the smaller ones....

[abinder3]

40 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

I would guess that's just the normal difference in the size of the wheel.

Bigger wheels are in General a bit more sluggish and not as agile as the smaller ones....

Totally agree. 

 

Allen

[Trucktent]

14 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

I would guess that's just the normal difference in the size of the wheel.

Bigger wheels are in General a bit more sluggish and not as agile as the smaller ones....

It is definitely challenging to start up on any degree of incline. Once it gets going there is plenty of power. It is like taking off in 3rd gear. Had a chance to try out a couple other brands. The 16" V8 does not have a sluggish start or any of the 18" Solowheels I was able to try.

Turn up the initial starting torque. Starting on your tiptoes with a full lean while you wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, it's starting to move, glad I didn't tip over, now it's rolling, is not a good thing. 

I let a couple experienced riders try the 16S. 'Once it gets going...' Is a comment I heard more than once. 

[dpong]

Speaking of going up an incline.  The video I link to below is well worth watching.  Sorry it is Facebook and I can't help that. 

The individual testing the 16S goes down an very steep slope and then incredibly he goes all the way up the slope again.  He estimates a 30 to 31 degree slope.

The thing that is extra relevant to this discussion is be sure and look at his feet.  He is literally standing on his toes (balls of feet) on the front of the pedals with his heels not even touching in order to get the power he needs to move forward.  I thought it was odd when I saw it, but it goes to what @Trucktent is reporting. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/kingsong/permalink/1233254950083876/

(The video really is worth a watch.  Impressive climb.)

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, dpong said:

Speaking of going up an incline.  The video I link to below is well worth watching.  Sorry it is Facebook and I can't help that. 

The individual testing the 16S goes down an very steep slope and then incredibly he goes all the way up the slope again.  He estimates a 30 to 31 degree slope.

The thing that is extra relevant to this discussion is be sure and look at his feet.  He is literally standing on his toes (balls of feet) on the front of the pedals with his heels not even touching in order to get the power he needs to move forward.  I thought it was odd when I saw it, but it goes to what @Trucktent is reporting. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/kingsong/permalink/1233254950083876/

(The video really is worth a watch.  Impressive climb.)

Good video. In this particular case it probably greatly helped that he probably weighs 50kg. I have my doubts whether I would make it 

[meepmeepmayer]

11 hours ago, Trucktent said:

It is definitely challenging to start up on any degree of incline. Once it gets going there is plenty of power. It is like taking off in 3rd gear. Had a chance to try out a couple other brands. The 16" V8 does not have a sluggish start or any of the 18" Solowheels I was able to try.

Turn up the initial starting torque. Starting on your tiptoes with a full lean while you wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, it's starting to move, glad I didn't tip over, now it's rolling, is not a good thing. 

I let a couple experienced riders try the 16S. 'Once it gets going...' Is a comment I heard more than once. 

Can anyone compare the 16S to a Gotway ACM (67 or 84V, does not matter) in that regard? I'd be interested how the differences are in initial acceleration feeling.

[steve454]

11 hours ago, dpong said:

Speaking of going up an incline.  The video I link to below is well worth watching.  Sorry it is Facebook and I can't help that. 

The individual testing the 16S goes down an very steep slope and then incredibly he goes all the way up the slope again.  He estimates a 30 to 31 degree slope.

The thing that is extra relevant to this discussion is be sure and look at his feet.  He is literally standing on his toes (balls of feet) on the front of the pedals with his heels not even touching in order to get the power he needs to move forward.  I thought it was odd when I saw it, but it goes to what @Trucktent is reporting. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/kingsong/permalink/1233254950083876/

(The video really is worth a watch.  Impressive climb.)

Yeah he was on his toes, and also zigzagging to minimize the slope.  Zigzagging is good technique for going up steep hills, I just learned something new here.  But going downhill is impressive also, good braking on the Kingsong, even though as Marty says, the weight is not American sized.

[Christoph Zens]

On 11.4.2017 at 5:46 AM, Trucktent said:

It is definitely challenging to start up on any degree of incline. Once it gets going there is plenty of power. It is like taking off in 3rd gear. Had a chance to try out a couple other brands. The 16" V8 does not have a sluggish start or any of the 18" Solowheels I was able to try.

Turn up the initial starting torque. Starting on your tiptoes with a full lean while you wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, it's starting to move, glad I didn't tip over, now it's rolling, is not a good thing. 

I let a couple experienced riders try the 16S. 'Once it gets going...' Is a comment I heard more than once. 

Interesting. I guess since that's the first firmware for the 16" 1200W motor, they take it easy on startup. Not to blow the MOSFETs or cause a BMS shutdown. Maybe they will gradually change to a more aggressive start once they are confident with the new hardware. It's better to do it like this than the other way around. Keep in mind that a motor rated for 1200W continuous output is capable of extreme current draw when it's not moving yet. This is because there is no Back-EMF to work against the 67V applied to the inductors. They get the full load. Once the motor starts moving, the induced counter voltage will work against the voltage applied by the MOSFTEs and thus reduce power consumption (up to the point where the induced reverse voltage equals the available forward voltage to drive the motor, which is the maximum speed the motor can go). In early days, one had to use switchable loads in series with the motor to limit the current draw during the start-up phase. Nowadays, we use PWM to control the amount of power delivered to the motor. The MOSFETs used in the KS16S are capable of up to 1280A pulsed current and 195A sustained DC current (at 25C case temperature), which seems like enough headroom, but the motor controller also need to watch out for the BMS, which could cut power if over-stressed.

In my opinion, many of the 'cut-out due to overloading the wheel' reports simply indicate firmware bugs. If the motor controller is working correctly, it stays within the SOA of all components at all times, and there is no reason ever for a BMS to shut down due to 'overload' or a MOSFET blowing up due to over heat or over current. The worst thing that should happen is that the wheel can not keep up with the rider, causing the pedals to tilt forward as the wheel lags behind. Any experienced rider will be able to balance this out immediately and correct for the lag. What can't be balanced out is a sudden shutdown, ultimately caused by bad decisions made in the controller software.

I was riding a NB1 E+ for almost 2000km and are in the market for a KS16S as well. Once I get it, I'll report back how it compares to the NB1.

[Lukasz]

22 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

 

In my opinion, many of the 'cut-out due to overloading the wheel' reports simply indicate firmware bugs. If the motor controller is working correctly, it stays within the SOA of all components at all times, and there is no reason ever for a BMS to shut down due to 'overload' or a MOSFET blowing up due to over heat or over current. The worst thing that should happen is that the wheel can not keep up with the rider, causing the pedals to tilt forward as the wheel lags behind. Any experienced rider will be able to balance this out immediately and correct for the lag. What can't be balanced out is a sudden shutdown, ultimately caused by bad decisions made in the controller software.

I was riding a NB1 E+ for almost 2000km and are in the market for a KS16S as well. Once I get it, I'll report back how it compares to the NB1.

I have around 2000 km Ninebot One E+ experience (from two units, one of them with 380Wh battery from 1RadWerkstatt... ) and over 700 km from KingSong KS16C made in just 4 months...

In general I can say that KingSong is twice as good as Ninebot...    

- much higher torque,

- much longer range 

- valise type handle

- higher pedals placement

- integrated lights

- better stability and nicer/softer ride due to the wider tire 2.125" in KS vs 1.9" in Ninebot

- 16s4p battery setup in KingSong ensuring much higher torque  and current safety margin especially with cold battery vs 15s2p in Ninebot  (however not completely fail safe in cold weather conditions) and many more...   

Just a few improvements here - 

 

Cut outs in Ninebot are mostly related to basic BMS and not enough current from the 15s2p battery .... but Ninebot is still very good wheel to start with...

I have already ordered KS16S and I am looking forward that it arrives in late May probably..  

[HermanTheGerman]

15 hours ago, Lukasz said:

 

I have already ordered KS16S and I am looking forward that it arrives in late May probably..  

When you got it, let us know your impressions.

I'm currently very happy with my KS16B, but if there are good 16S reviews, especially from current KS16 owners, I'll buy one during summer.

Just don't want to be at the leading edge, because the 16B e.g. climbs easily even on steep gravelroads, and the 16S with the current firmware 1.0 seems to have trouble with that.

[US69]

11 minutes ago, HermanTheGerman said:

When you got it, let us know your impressions.

I'm currently very happy with my KS16B, but if there are good 16S reviews, especially from current KS16 owners, I'll buy one during summer.

Just don't want to be at the leading edge, because the 16B e.g. climbs easily even on steep gravelroads, and the 16S with the current firmware 1.0 seems to have trouble with that.

I would also like to see Reviews from former KS16b owner...

The one Report that says the 16S is having Problems on the first acceleration meters and comparing it to a V8...

...i have not heard that from asian reports on for ex. wheelers or anywhere else!

But we will see :-)

 

[Lukasz]

I would be happy to report all real differences between KS16c and KS16S, so far have browsed through the translation of the french forum and in most cases opinions about KS16S are positive, so this was the base for my decision...  known advantages are:

- 1200W / 840Wh vs 800W / 680Wh

- new PCB with heavy duty mosfets and bigger radiator

- brighter front/back lights

- brighter side lights thanks through more transparent led covers

- higher pedal angle - less scratches on the pedal ends possibly, lighter pedals and grip on the pedals

- only slightly increased weight from 16,8 to 17,3 (as reported by others)

I am an early adopter type, however in this case I would like to avoid to be the guinea pig, as crashing at higher speeds can have deadly consequences...  I hope that by end of May some firmware update will shake the initial bugs out a little....  BTW Kingsong promised the new android application (also capable of 320x320pix screen operation "still in April" we will see if this is going to happen.....  I am intersted how BT connection will behave in KS16S, as from  the upgrade from V1.23  to V1.25 firmware it sucks.  Maybe this is all related to "safety" of the connection... 

[US69]

2 hours ago, Lukasz said:

I would be happy to report all real differences between KS16c and KS16S, so far have browsed through the translation of the french forum and in most cases opinions about KS16S are positive, so this was the base for my decision...  known advantages are:

- 1200W / 840Wh vs 800W / 680Wh

- new PCB with heavy duty mosfets and bigger radiator

- brighter front/back lights

- brighter side lights thanks through more transparent led covers

- higher pedal angle - less scratches on the pedal ends possibly, lighter pedals and grip on the pedals

- only slightly increased weight from 16,8 to 17,3 (as reported by others)

I am an early adopter type, however in this case I would like to avoid to be the guinea pig, as crashing at higher speeds can have deadly consequences...  I hope that by end of May some firmware update will shake the initial bugs out a little....  BTW Kingsong promised the new android application (also capable of 320x320pix screen operation "still in April" we will see if this is going to happen.....  I am intersted how BT connection will behave in KS16S, as from  the upgrade from V1.23  to V1.25 firmware it sucks.  Maybe this is all related to "safety" of the connection... 

The application in April...is old news...because of problems with software engeniering they have outsourced the development of the app with complete new functions, it is now announced as "earliest in May"...but: An android version 1.6, which is just fixing the LED issues of V1.25, has been released...can be found on FB in the Kingsong group (or was it the wheelies group?)....

[Lukasz]

Will see with the new app... but I am afraid that You maybe right... All software projects take much longer than expected... 

I have been posting links to Android app 1.6 myself,  - here for those looking for it : https://www.elektrycznemonocykle.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&p=1761

but V1.6 does not offer anything more than the V1.4, except the side led colors fix, in my case is also buggy as it often closes just after startup. After initial frequent use of the application with first 100 kilometers, I simply do not use it at all.  Wheellog still works with firmware V1.25 and I like it more in terms of graphics, the only drawback is that KS app must be started first, then WheelLog. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Ultimately, I would see the app problems as a positive. Kingsong seems to be rapidly improving and professionalizing in a concerted manner. Waiting for the "good" app is just a symptom of that. I'm quite impressed (if only they were a little more performance/battery capacity oriented).

[Lukasz]

I keep fingers crossed that internally in KingSong it really is  "rapid improvement and professionalization" ....   reality is usually less beautiful. 

[Christoph Zens]

On 13.4.2017 at 1:06 AM, Lukasz said:

- better stability and nicer/softer ride due to the wider tire 2.125" in KS vs 1.9" in Ninebot

 

Now that's interesting. My Ninebot One E+, almost 2 years old, came with a 16x2.125" Kenda tire, just like the KS16. I'm still on that same tire. I had to fix the inner tube once after a puncture, and started to look for 'guarded' tires as an alternative to the original one, so I paid extra attention to tire dimension and specification. Unfortunately, I could not find any suitable 16x2.125 tire to replace the original one. Dimension is not the problem, but none of the available tires was rated for a 100kg load, which is needed when there is only one instead of two wheels. Mad Max from Schwalbe (featuring Kevlar guard), for example, is rated for 55kg max. load. Sooner or later, the side wall of such a tire would fail due to the constant overload.

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

@Christoph Zens Did you find a tire?

[Christoph Zens]

3 hours ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

@Christoph Zens Did you find a tire?

No, I didn't find anything. Asked a few bicycle dealers as well. They went out of their way to help me and searched their big fat reseller catalogs - to no avail.

At this dimension, the target use is children's bicycles and BMX, but no high load / high pressure applications like we need for our wheels.

Given how hilariously tedious it is to replace a tire on a Kingsong wheel, I would really like to have a guarded tire to minimize the risk of a puncture. Mine happened while riding in the city, after maybe the first 100km, and the piece that got stuck in the tire causing the puncture was really small. When I found it I was like "what the heck, this tire provides no protection for the inner tube whatsoever, I am going to swap this out ASAP". Turns out that this is not so easy.

I would be very interested if someone could come up with a good 16" guarded tire. Maybe tires on current wheels are already much better than the one they use on the Ninebot? Maybe I got really unlucky and punctures are not a real problem?

We should open a topic here to talk about tires and punctures... 

[Marty Backe]

7 minutes ago, Christoph Zens said:

No, I didn't find anything. Asked a few bicycle dealers as well. They went out of their way to help me and searched their big fat reseller catalogs - to no avail.

At this dimension, the target use is children's bicycles and BMX, but no high load / high pressure applications like we need for our wheels.

Given how hilariously tedious it is to replace a tire on a Kingsong wheel, I would really like to have a guarded tire to minimize the risk of a puncture. Mine happened while riding in the city, after maybe the first 100km, and the piece that got stuck in the tire causing the puncture was really small. When I found it I was like "what the heck, this tire provides no protection for the inner tube whatsoever, I am going to swap this out ASAP". Turns out that this is not so easy.

I would be very interested if someone could come up with a good 16" guarded tire. Maybe tires on current wheels are already much better than the one they use on the Ninebot? Maybe I got really unlucky and punctures are not a real problem?

We should open a topic here to talk about tires and punctures... 

Myself and others put Slime in all of our tires. Slime has even been used to repair an already punctured tire. Anecdotal I know, but I've accumulated over 3200km on my wheels and have yet to have a flat.