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Vogelfrei
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I bought a used Airwheel X3 while learning and I'm ready to upgrade.

I cannot find any EUC comparative table and I'm looking for these specs:

1) weight: MAX 12.5kg (27.5lb)

2) range>40 km for a 82kg (182lb) man (flat, 20km/h average)

3) Speed: at least 25-30 km/h (17-18 mph) for my weight

4) 14" or bigger

Could you help me?

Edited by Vogelfrei
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Your specs are a bit contradictory: with your weight, for ranges up to and above 40km, you likely need a wheel with 4 battery packs (my guess would be at least 174Wh per pack, so 680Wh, 4 * 132Wh = 528Wh probably won't be enough). On relatively "optimal" conditions, I've managed to squeeze out almost 26km out from a 264Wh pack, but I weight <60kg.

A single pack usually weighs around 0.7-1kg, depending on cells and whether there are multiple BMSs (and to lesser extent wire thicknesses, connectors), so the batteries alone could weigh around 3-4kg, and a typical motor is something like 8-9kg or more (the bigger the motor, the heavier), so it already goes up to and above 12.5kg (on top of those, there's the shell, mainboard, wiring and pedals). For lower weight, you probably need to look for 14" models and possibly need to reduce the required range. I'm not that familiar with the newer 14" models, but if you allow some more weight, you have lots of more options (personally I prefer 16" over 14", never tried 18" or larger models).

Here's a couple of weight breakdowns, courtesy of @Jason McNeil:

https://www.wheelgo.com/component-weights/   14" IPS 111 = 11.9kg, although it probably has only 2 battery packs and a range of  maybe15-25km.

Jason also reported 14" King Song with 800W motor and 680Wh battery packs was around 14.5.kg. There's probably more weighs mentioned around the forum, but the information's scattered. We used to have a nice comparison table of models up to summer of 2015 or so, but a forum update destroyed the formatting :P  The ODS-file (Open Document format, ie OpenOffice / LibreOffice) is still available though:  

I tried pasting the file contents here, it first formatted nicely, but trying to post it I got a 500-error ("Internal server error"). The list's pretty outdated though.

 

 

 

 

Edited by esaj
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8 minutes ago, esaj said:

Your specs are a bit contradictory: for ranges up to and above 40km, you likely need a wheel with 4 battery packs. A single pack usually weighs around 0.7-1kg, depending on cells and whether there are multiple BMSs (and to lesser extent wire thicknesses, connectors), so the batteries alone could weigh around 3-4kg, and a typical motor is something like 8-9kg or more (the bigger the motor, the heavier), so it already goes up to and above 12.5kg (on top of those, there's the shell, mainboard, wiring and pedals). For lower weight, you probably need to look for 14" models and possibly need to reduce the required range. I'm not that familiar with the 14" models, but if you allow some more weight, you have lots of more options (personally I prefer 16" over 14", never tried 18" or larger models).

Here's a couple of weight breakdowns, courtesy of @Jason McNeil:

https://www.wheelgo.com/component-weights/   14" IPS 111 = 11.9kg, although it probably has only 2 battery packs and a range of  maybe15-25km.

Jason also reported 14" King Song with 800W motor and 680Wh battery packs was around 14.5.kg. There's probably more weighs mentioned around the forum, but the information's scattered. We used to have a nice comparison table of models up to summer of 2015 or so, but a forum update destroyed the formatting :P  The ODS-file (Open Document format, ie OpenOffice / LibreOffice) is still available though:  

I tried pasting the file contents here, it first formatted nicely, but trying to post it I got a 500-error ("Internal server error"). The list's pretty outdated though.

 

 

 

 

Nice sheet! I'm starting reading it! I'll find the answer

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29 minutes ago, Vogelfrei said:

I need info about batteries and motors for:

IPS zero

IPS Zero specs.png

The 260Wh and 340Wh -models have two battery packs, maximum you could get with custom-packs is 2 * 210Wh (rounded, actually it's 207Wh, but anyway) = 420Wh. The range is exaggerated, 40km with 340Wh packs would require a rider who weighs something like 40-50kg. Like I said above, I could squeeze out a little under 26km on 2 * 132Wh = 264Wh packs built from quality cells, that's a little over 10Wh per kilometer, but I weight under 60kg, and the last kilometers on that trip required me to stop multiple times to allow the batteries to "rejuvenate" a bit, then I could ride again maybe one kilometer until the low battery warning started again. Also hills, accelerations etc. will affect the range (sometimes a lot), for best range you need to ride at low(ish) steady speed with minimal headwind and climbs, more packs will also help in the sense that the "stress" (current) per pack is lower. You likely need to calculate for something like 15-20Wh per kilometer, for 40km range that's 600-800Wh.

 

Quote

Rockwheel 16

There's the new up-and-coming Rockwheel GT16, but it's different than the GR16 mentioned in the tables. I don't think it's available anymore, unless you find one used. Likely you'll get a range of under 20km even with the bigger battery model. Also, the geared motors apparently wore out much faster than normal "direct-drive", and the availability of spare parts is unknown.

 

Quote

Gotway MCM2 (dunno exactly which model)

Outdated model too, current one is MCM4 (I think), and then there's the ACM's (of which  I don't know that much).

 

Quote

Have you any suggestions (while I look at respectives offical brands' site)?

I doubt there's a wheel out there that fulfills all your requirements, between speed (power), range (battery capacity) and weight, you have to make compromises.

Funny to look back at that old list now, although it's been only about 1.5-2 years, we now have 680-840Wh or larger packs available on most of the big name wheels (back then 132-340Wh, for bigger packs there was just something like the first 14" King Songs and the larger Gotways, 840Wh was more or less the absolute maximum), 800W motor seems more like minimum now (typically 350-500W back then, BTW, the 1000W -rating on the IPSs mentioned in the list is the peak power, not nominal) and the max speeds are something like at least 25-30km/h or more (back then, 18-25km/h, except a few wheels like most Gotways and shunted Firewheel). Most of the progress seems to go toward larger packs and more powerful motors/faster top speed though, but there's lots of small advancements and safety issues solved (although the wheels probably never become 100% safe, at least we don't hear of sudden overspeed / low voltage shutdowns and other "nice" things that often anymore ;)).

 

Edited by esaj
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7 minutes ago, Vogelfrei said:

Kingsong and rockwheel too heavy.

 

I need to choose IPS zero or Gotway MCM4 340wh.  I cannot find exact weight for 340 MCM

mcm4 specs.png

The 12.8kg is probably for the 130Wh (1 battery pack) model, someone mentioned somewhere that their MCM4 weighs about 30lbs (~13.5kg), not sure if it was the 340Wh model, but it would make sense (about 0.7kg heavier with 2 battery packs vs 1 pack).

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22 minutes ago, esaj said:

IPS Zero specs.png

The 260Wh and 340Wh -models have two battery packs, maximum you could get with custom-packs is 2 * 210Wh (rounded, actually it's 207Wh, but anyway) = 420Wh. The range is exaggerated, 40km with 340Wh packs would require a rider who weighs something like 40-50kg. Like I said above, I could squeeze out a little under 26km on 2 * 132Wh = 264Wh packs built from quality cells, that's a little over 10Wh per kilometer, but I weight under 60kg, and the last kilometers on that trip required me to stop multiple times to allow the batteries to "rejuvenate" a bit, then I could ride again maybe one kilometer until the low battery warning started again. Also hills, accelerations etc. will affect the range (sometimes a lot), for best range you need to ride at low(ish) steady speed with minimal headwind and climbs, more packs will also help in the sense that the "stress" (current) per pack is lower. You likely need to calculate for something like 15-20Wh per kilometer, for 40km range that's 600-800Wh.

 

There's the new up-and-coming Rockwheel GT16, but it's different than the GR16 mentioned in the tables. I don't think it's available anymore, unless you find one used. Likely you'll get a range of under 20km even with the bigger battery model. Also, the geared motors apparently wore out much faster than normal "direct-drive", and the availability of spare parts is unknown.

 

Outdated model too, current one is MCM4 (I think), and then there's the ACM's (of which  I don't know that much).

 

I doubt there's a wheel out there that fulfills all your requirements, between speed (power), range (battery capacity) and weight, you have to make compromises.

Funny to look back at that old list now, although it's been only about 1.5-2 years, we now have 680-840Wh or larger packs available on most of the big name wheels (back then 132-340Wh, for bigger packs there was just something like the first 14" King Songs and the larger Gotways, 840Wh was more or less the absolute maximum), 800W motor seems more like minimum now (typically 350-500W back then, BTW, the 1000W -rating on the IPSs mentioned in the list is the peak power, not nominal) and the max speeds are something like at least 25-30km/h or more (back then, 18-25km/h, except a few wheels like most Gotways and shunted Firewheel). Most of the progress seems to go toward larger packs and more powerful motors/faster top speed though, but there's lots of small advancements and safety issues solved (although the wheels probably never become 100% safe, at least we don't hear of sudden overspeed / low voltage shutdowns and other "nice" things that often anymore ;)).

 

Thank you Esaj.

I understand that 40km range are too much for a featherweight EUC.

I'm totally oriented towards IPS zero340 or MCM4 340.

Now it's a matter of price and understand what's the correct weight for MCM4. I read MCM4 max weight 12,5 kg... so if it speaks about max weight with biggest batteries I can even look for 600wh models.

Any experience with IPS zero of MCM4?

EDIT:

Read your answer... now I must look for an IPS zero (I found an offer for MCM4... but now IPS is my choice!)

Edited by Vogelfrei
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19 minutes ago, Vogelfrei said:

Read your answer... now I must look for an IPS zero (I found an offer for MCM4... but now IPS is my choice!)

There's probably a lot of shops around the world that aren't mentioned in the list, but it's a good place to start.

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1 hour ago, Vogelfrei said:

Kingsong and rockwheel too heavy.

 

I need to choose IPS zero or Gotway MCM4 340wh.  I cannot find exact weight for 340 MCM

Hi,

I would suggest the Gotway MCM2S 680Wh, it is 11.8kg, 60km range (you should get at least 40km in normal conditions), can go up to 27km/h (according to tech specs), it reaches all of your requirments, it is outdated but in is very robust, proven reliable and quite cheap now, but still a very good wheel imho ;)

I currently own a mcm4 & a mcm2s, the mcm2s has more range but less power with the same battery pack, but it is definitely more robust than the mcm4, it's not very pretty but it does the job ;)

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3 minutes ago, Pingouin said:

Hi,

I would suggest the Gotway MCM2S 680Wh, it is 11.8kg, 60km range (you should get at least 40km in normal conditions), can go up to 27km/h (according to tech specs), it reaches all of your requirments, it is outdated but in is very robust, proven reliable and quite cheap now, but still a very good wheel imho ;)

I currently own a mcm4 & a mcm2s, the mcm2s has more range but less power with the same battery pack, but it is definitely more robust than the mcm4, it's not very pretty but it does the job ;)

Wow, never realized MCM2s was that light, I had Vee's 680Wh MCM2s on loan in 2015, although it was definitely lighter than the Firewheel F260 (around 15kg), but not much. Seemed nice wheel, but it started to "rock" back and forth after going above something like 23-25km/h, like the balancing was partially out of whack, ie. it sort of "overaccelerated", then decelerated constantly, like the wheel was moving front and back of me... Hard to describe really :P   Kind of like the F-wheel in this Austins' video, except the rocking was slower:

 

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Just now, esaj said:

Wow, never realized MCM2s was that light, I had Vee's 680Wh MCM2s on loan in 2015, although it was definitely lighter than the Firewheel F260 (around 15kg), but not much. Seemed nice wheel, but it started to "rock" back and forth after going above something like 23-25km/h, like the balancing was partially out of whack, ie. it sort of "overaccelerated", then decelerated constantly, like the wheel was moving front and back of me... Hard to describe really :P   Kind of like the F-wheel in this Austins' video, except the rocking was slower:

 

It is indeed very light, I have the mcm4v2 680wh (13.8kg) & the mcm2s 520Wh (10.8kg), I get about the same range with the two, despite having +160Wh for the mcm4 !

it's because the structure of the mcm2s is lighter than the mcm4, it has no gadgets, and the motor has 500W (1000W peak) & the mcm4 has 800W (1800W peak), it makes a significant difference in weight, but I also noticed that the mcm2s has a much quiter motor than the mcm4, and my ACM is even louder, so unless you need to climb steep hills 500W are fine, it's still more than the airwheel x3.

The max real speed of the MCM2S is 23km/h (with bike computer), the MCM4 is 22km/h, but that is true for all wheels, they all say they can go faster than reality (airwheel says 18km/h while its 14km/h real speed), only firewheel is quite accurate I think.

 

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Another option is the 14" Inmotion V5F+, the wheel I bought. It tops out at 25 km/h (tiltback starts at 23) and weighs around 12 kg. With my weight (~67 kg) and a battery size of 480 Wh I get somewhere around 35-40 km range (I've never actually run the batteries completely dry so I cannot say for sure).

It's quite an agile wheel favoring an aggressive riding style, also making it perfect for weaving between pedestrians and cyclists alike when commuting to work through the big city.

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25 minutes ago, Pingouin said:

It is indeed very light, I have the mcm4v2 680wh (13.8kg) & the mcm2s 520Wh (10.8kg), I get about the same range with the two, despite having +160Wh for the mcm4 !

it's because the structure of the mcm2s is lighter than the mcm4, it has no gadgets, and the motor has 500W (1000W peak) & the mcm4 has 800W (1800W peak), it makes a significant difference in weight, but I also noticed that the mcm2s has a much quiter motor than the mcm4, and my ACM is even louder, so unless you need to climb steep hills 500W are fine, it's still more than the airwheel x3.

The max real speed of the MCM2S is 23km/h (with bike computer), the MCM4 is 22km/h, but that is true for all wheels, they all say they can go faster than reality (airwheel says 18km/h while its 14km/h real speed), only firewheel is quite accurate I think.

The speed I quoted above for the MCM2s was Gotways' "app speed", so probably exaggerated vs. reality. I had the wheel on loan so I could test Wheelemetrics on a real device (up to that point I had only developed and tested it with binary data recordings from other Gotways, as I don't have a Gotway or King Song myself).

It would make sense that the lower-powered wheels are lighter, as thinner copper wiring and probably smaller magnets can be used in the motor, of course more or less wiring is needed depending whether it's wound for speed or torque. Firewheel didn't have an app or any sort of interface for reading speed or such, so  I measured the speeds and ranges using a bike computer (calibrated "correctly", ie. millimeters per round, taking into account how much the tire pushes in, a bike computer is more accurate than GPS). It could  go way above 30km/h (shunted), but I rarely took it out that high, as I was worried the 550W/1350W power wouldn't be enough if I hit a pothole or other obstacle, and didn't want to find out what it feels like to fall from such speed :P

Right now I'm (still ;)) eyeing the older KS16's (B/C/D, whatever the latest one is, not S), although the price difference to the S-model doesn't seem that big in the end. Not sure if I need (nominal) motor power above 800W (and the law actually says that the maximum nominal allowed is 1000W, but how are they going to check it anyway :P), but "need" (read: want) 840Wh batteries, range anxiety sucks. Topping out at 30km/h seems fine with me, most of my trips I had average speed somewhere around 22-24km/h any way.

 

Edited by esaj
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1 minute ago, esaj said:

The speed I quoted above for the MCM2s was Gotways' "app speed", so probably exaggerated vs. reality. I had the wheel on loan so I could test Wheelemetrics on a real device (up to that point I had only developed and tested it with recordings from other Gotways, as I don't have a Gotway or King Song myself).

It would make sense that the lower-powered wheels are lighter, as thinner copper wiring and probably smaller magnets can be used in the motor, of course more or less wiring is needed depending whether it's wound for speed or torque. Firewheel didn't have an app or any sort of interface for reading speed or such, so  I measured the speeds and ranges using a bike computer (calibrated "correctly", ie. millimeters per round, taking into account how much the tire pushes in, a bike computer is more accurate than GPS). It could  go way above 30km/h (shunted), but I rarely took it out that high, as I was worried the 550W/1350W power wouldn't be enough if I hit a pothole or other obstacle, and didn't want to find out what it feels like to fall from such speed :P

Right now I'm (still ;)) eyeing the older KS16's (B/C/D, whatever the latest one is, not S), although the price difference to the S-model doesn't seem that big in the end. Not sure if I need (nominal) motor power above 800W (and the law actually says that the maximum nominal allowed is 1000W, but how are they going to check it anyway :P), but "need" (read: want) 840Wh batteries, range anxiety sucks. Topping out at 30km/h seems fine with me, most of my trips I had average speed somewhere around 22-24km/h any way.

 

I think that for most riders, more power means safer high speeds, I don't think many people ride in the moutains often like I do with very steep hills, that's why I chose the mcm4v2 high torque instead of the HS version.

EUC are getting more Wh(Msuper3S+, Monster..), more powerful motors (GT16), more design leds (V8) but they are also getting heavier because the brushless motors are not specificaly designed for EUC, but are just taken from powerful HUB E-bike motors. That's also part of why Wh are getting bigger and bigger, to compensate for hungry motors ^^

You are right, 22-24km/h real speed is enough most of the time, and having several EUC (with at least one fast) can give you different riding pleasures because you can't have it all in one EUC. For our buddy vogelfrei I would still suggest the MCM2S 680Wh over the V5+ and MCM4 340Wh, because it will be cheaper than those two, with more range (the V5+ is givin for 35-40km but irl it might be much less, even though it is a greal wheel, and agile ! ) and it can take a beating !

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27 minutes ago, Pingouin said:

I think that for most riders, more power means safer high speeds, I don't think many people ride in the moutains often like I do with very steep hills, that's why I chose the mcm4v2 high torque instead of the HS version.

I wouldn't mind "head room" in top speed, but if it comes at the price of lowered torque, I'd rather choose high torque above high speed. Less chance of falling on your face due to over-lean or the wheel crapping out on you on a bigger bump or obstacle ;)  Never really got into the off-road riding (Firewheel isn't actually very good for that), but I've done my share of riding in the forest hiking paths...

 

27 minutes ago, Pingouin said:

EUC are getting more Wh(Msuper3S+, Monster..), more powerful motors (GT16), more design leds (V8) but they are also getting heavier because the brushless motors are not specificaly designed for EUC, but are just taken from powerful HUB E-bike motors. That's also part of why Wh are getting bigger and bigger, to compensate for hungry motors ^^

Still lots of finer details I don't understand about the motors, but shouldn't e-bike motors be just fine? As long as the motor can be driven accurately enough to balance you and can provide enough torque to keep the rider upright / accelerate etc, what more is needed? ;)

 

27 minutes ago, Pingouin said:

You are right, 22-24km/h real speed is enough most of the time, and having several EUC (with at least one fast) can give you different riding pleasures because you can't have it all in one EUC.

I wish I could get all the wheels out there (or at least try them), but without winning the lottery that's not likely to happen :P  The downside of living in a sparsely populated, relatively expensive country is that there aren't that many people around with wheels either. Vee/EUC Extreme lives about 550km away, that's the closest I know where I could go to test something other than generics/Airwheels/lower end models ;)  An old friend of mine has KS16, which I had on loan for couple of days last summer when he was visiting the town, but lives about 200km away... There are a couple of shops, but they're not brick & mortar, so fat chance on getting to test ride anything. Plus the 24% VAT keeps the prices pretty high (KS16 with 640Wh was quoted at something like 1800-2000€ in a Finnish shop last spring, at least now they've dropped it to around 1200€ :P). They still have a special edition Ninebot One E+ with 620Wh (now that's a trick, don't know how it's made) listed around 3860€ and "basic" 320Wh E+ @ 1200€... Sorry, not going to support the domestic sellers, unfortunately I'm not made of money :D Plus, I'm a cheapskate anyway...

 

27 minutes ago, Pingouin said:

For our buddy vogelfrei I would still suggest the MCM2S 680Wh over the V5+ and MCM4 340Wh, because it will be cheaper than those two, with more range (the V5+ is givin for 35-40km but irl it might be much less, even though it is a greal wheel, and agile ! ) and it can take a beating !

It would seem to fit the bill with weight and battery/range, although it won't be as fast as he wished for. Don't know if they're made anymore, might have to look for a used one... The ranges can vary a lot depending on temperature, hills etc, but it would seem the rider weight is the largest factor. I wonder if it's possible to get below 10Wh/km for a light rider with more packs, as less power should be lost in the internal resistances of the cells.

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11 hours ago, esaj said:

I wouldn't mind "head room" in top speed, but if it comes at the price of lowered torque, I'd rather choose high torque above high speed. Less chance of falling on your face due to over-lean or the wheel crapping out on you on a bigger bump or obstacle ;)  Never really got into the off-road riding (Firewheel isn't actually very good for that), but I've done my share of riding in the forest hiking paths...

Well I think today some EUC are safe at +30kph speeds, it's just that the rider isn't safe, the torque of the motor is sufficient for not having any cut off issues. I love the fact that the firewheel motor is very quiet.

11 hours ago, esaj said:

Still lots of finer details I don't understand about the motors, but shouldn't e-bike motors be just fine? As long as the motor can be driven accurately enough to balance you and can provide enough torque to keep the rider upright / accelerate etc, what more is needed? ;)

They are fine and reliable, the only thing is that they are quite heavy, a specificaly designed EUC motor could be very light, and the motor is what weights the most on an EUC imo.

11 hours ago, esaj said:

I wish I could get all the wheels out there (or at least try them), but without winning the lottery that's not likely to happen :P  The downside of living in a sparsely populated, relatively expensive country is that there aren't that many people around with wheels either. Vee/EUC Extreme lives about 550km away, that's the closest I know where I could go to test something other than generics/Airwheels/lower end models ;)  An old friend of mine has KS16, which I had on loan for couple of days last summer when he was visiting the town, but lives about 200km away... There are a couple of shops, but they're not brick & mortar, so fat chance on getting to test ride anything. Plus the 24% VAT keeps the prices pretty high (KS16 with 640Wh was quoted at something like 1800-2000€ in a Finnish shop last spring, at least now they've dropped it to around 1200€ :P). They still have a special edition Ninebot One E+ with 620Wh (now that's a trick, don't know how it's made) listed around 3860€ and "basic" 320Wh E+ @ 1200€... Sorry, not going to support the domestic sellers, unfortunately I'm not made of money :D Plus, I'm a cheapskate anyway...

They are very expensive, I don't understand why they come with these kind of pricing !

11 hours ago, esaj said:

It would seem to fit the bill with weight and battery/range, although it won't be as fast as he wished for. Don't know if they're made anymore, might have to look for a used one... The ranges can vary a lot depending on temperature, hills etc, but it would seem the rider weight is the largest factor. I wonder if it's possible to get below 10Wh/km for a light rider with more packs, as less power should be lost in the internal resistances of the cells.

It is in theory fast enough, but that's the case for every EUC, I think it's up to him to decide if 23kph real speed is enough or not, because at these weight there is nothing more endurant I think.

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On 14/3/2017 at 10:03 PM, Vogelfrei said:

I bought a used Airwheel X3 while learning and I'm ready to upgrade.

I cannot find any EUC comparative table and I'm looking for these specs:

1) weight: MAX 12.5kg (27.5lb)

2) range>40 km for a 82kg (182lb) man (flat, 20km/h average)

3) Speed: at least 25-30 km/h (17-18 mph) for my weight

4) 14" or bigger

Could you help me?

@Vogelfrei

Ciao , allora ci se anche qua !:D I think MCM4 260 WH meet weight/speed request. You can add another battery pack if needed ..later.

You can try it ... before buy :)

Edited by Berus
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16 hours ago, thefork said:

Another option is the 14" Inmotion V5F+, the wheel I bought....

Wondering where to find F+ on the wheel? Mine had a V5F+ add on sticker on the outer box and no where else on the wheel. I found this info on the cover of air valve ( for Inmotion V5F). Mine said V5F ( not the PLUS +) on the air valve cover. Just checking anyway. 

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