Community brainstorming: legal definition of speed limit

[em1barns]

Belgian law is already the most unicycle friendly in Europe, and a study by the road law body is looking at how to enhance current regulations.

There are still 2 sticky points in current law:

- speed limit is defined at 18km/h

- speed limit should be enforced by manufacturer

Main issue is the latter. How could one properly define speed limit for euc? 

How is it defined in Plev?

How could definition be made compatible with current euc, so that insurances could cover our euc? 

@Jason McNeil, @OliverH, @RenaissanceMan, any take on this? Thanks in advance to everyone for your thoughts. 

[Marty Backe]

I'm so glad that that I live where some bureaucrats aren't going to determine what kind of EUC that I can ride, and mandate insurance.  All of you Europeans have my sympathies. As far as I'm aware there are no such difficulties in the Americas or Asia or anyplace other then the European Union.

[Mono]

14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm so glad that that I live where some bureaucrats aren't going to determine what kind of EUC that I can ride, and mandate insurance.  All of you Europeans have my sympathies. As far as I'm aware there are no such difficulties in the Americas or Asia or anyplace other then the European Union.

oh, c'mon 

I believe, @trya reported serious troubles when riding in Long Island, IIRC. 

[Pingouin]

I wonder why is there a 18kph limit in Belgium, while in France for example it's 25kph.

I think the newer EUC will have a speed limit that we can't break, maybe also a power limit (that would be stupid because it's a security issue) that's why I think now is the time to enjoy the freedom of riding EUC

[Mono]

1 minute ago, Pingouin said:

I wonder why is there a 18kph limit in Belgium, while in France for example it's 25kph.

I guess it is what the legislator believes what is best. There is not much more to it. The french 25km/h are AFAIK not written in a law, but rather informal.

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, Mono said:

oh, c'mon 

I believe, @trya reported serious troubles when riding in Long Island, IIRC. 

That's an individual town. Just like there can be individual path/trails that don't allow electric anything. That's a far cry from state or countrywide restrictions placed on a device that was designed for freedom and fun.

[Pingouin]

6 minutes ago, Mono said:

I guess it is what the legislator believes what is best. There is not much more to it. The french 25km/h are AFAIK not written in a law, but rather informal.

Yes, 25kph is recommended max speed for now, but it should be writter very soon on the law. Some of the manufacturers (like gotway) have implented a 25kph tilt back limit in the french application already ! I think 25kph is ok for 80% of the time, but 18kph is only for 30% of the time (for me at least)

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, Pingouin said:

<snip>

I think 25kph is ok for 80% of the time, but 18kph is only for 30% of the time (for me at least)

25kph would be OK for 10% of my time That's insanely slow, especially for any wheel made by King Song or Gotway.

[Pingouin]

Just now, Marty Backe said:

25kph would be OK for 10% of my time That's insanely slow, especially for any wheel made by King Song or Gotway.

Are you refering to "gotway/kingsong speeds" or real speeds ? Because that would give 28kph in app speed ^^

I agree that being able to go faster is great (I just discovered that recently) but 25kph is lthe legal E-bike speed in Europe, and it feels ok most of the time, even though I would like to see the legislators go for the 32kph.

[Mono]

Just now, Marty Backe said:

That's an individual town. Just like there can be individual path/trails that don't allow electric anything. That's a far cry from state or countrywide restrictions placed on a device that was designed for freedom and fun.

The good thing in Europe then is that towns don't make such kind of legislation. In any case, the chance to get in trouble even in the most restrictives part in Europe is still quite small. That could change though when an explicit ban is pronounced. I don't see a big chance that any ban would hold for long in a country of the European Union though. 

Back to the topic: legislating tilt back with some defined angles at and beyond the speed limit should do. One could also legislate the physical speed limitation of the motor/battery package, e.g., this physical speed limit cannot be larger than the street speed limit plus 20km/h. 

[abinder3]

9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

25kph would be OK for 10% of my time That's insanely slow, especially for any wheel made by King Song or Gotway.

I agree.  That's what I seem to average on my beach bike path rides and I'm just starting out on my KingSong 18.
(I was actually averaging that on my V8 at the beach at well.)

 

 

Allen

[abinder3]

Even many of the bicyclists at the beach here average at least 25kph.  I would think that it would makes things worse if EUCs were made to go slower than bicycles are going; kinda like a moving roadblock.

 

 

Allen

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, abinder3 said:

Even many of the bicyclists at the beach here average at least 25kph.  I would think that it would makes things worse if EUCs were made to go slower than bicycles area going; kinda like a moving roadblock.

 

 

Allen

That's what's crazy. Why impose speed limits slower than what a bicyclist does? Typically only my Monster can keep up with many bicyclists that I see on the various river trails. But may in Europe they have speed limits on bikes too? 

[Marty Backe]

18 minutes ago, Mono said:

The good thing in Europe then is that towns don't make such kind of legislation. In any case, the chance to get in trouble even in the most restrictives part in Europe is still quite small. That could change though when an explicit ban is pronounced. I don't see a big chance that any ban would hold for long in a country of the European Union though. 

Back to the topic: legislating tilt back with some defined angles at and beyond the speed limit should do. One could also legislate the physical speed limitation of the motor/battery package, e.g., this physical speed limit cannot be larger than the street speed limit plus 20km/h. 

I kind of assume that even though there may be laws forthcoming in Europe, they probably won't be enforced mostly, so you guys can continue having fun 

[Mono]

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

That's insanely slow

That's probably not what someone would say who had been hit by an EUC going 25km/h, well, insanely yes, slow no.

[Pingouin]

6 minutes ago, abinder3 said:

Even many of the bicyclists at the beach here average at least 25kph.  I would think that it would makes things worse if EUCs were made to go slower than bicycles area going; kinda like a moving roadblock.

 

 

Allen

After thinking about it, you're probably right, I think in Europe people don't like when things can go faster than them, but I feel safer on my faster wheel than on the slower one, in fact I've had a cut off because of trying to accelerate to double a cyclist who was at 24kph with my mcm4.

I think the legislators want to impose a certain speed because they don't want us to ride too fast on the sidewalk, but nobody with a little of sense will try to ride fast between pedestrians (I do see some doing that unfortunately and that may be what pushed the legislators to act..)

[Mono]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

But may in Europe they have speed limits on bikes too? 

The electric support of bikes that can be ridden without a driver licence is limited to 25km/h. Human powered speed may be limited by the current speed limit for the street one is driving on, though this is very unlikely to be enforced. 

[Marty Backe]

9 minutes ago, Mono said:

That's probably not what someone would say who had been hit by an EUC going 25km/h, well, insanely yes, slow no.

Totally agree. But they would say the same thing if a bicyclist going 35kph (very possible) would hit them. I just think our EUCs should be treated like bicycles.

[Pingouin]

25 minutes ago, Mono said:

The electric support of bikes that can be ridden without a driver licence is limited to 25km/h. Human powered speed may be limited by the current speed limit for the street one is driving on, though this is very unlikely to be enforced. 

In fact, I heard a few arguments about the 25kph limit for E-bikes, and why "normal" bicycles aren't limited in speed. The first one is that because anybody can ride an E-bike, they would take more risks while riding because they are not used to that speed. The second one is that only experienced rider can go above the 25kph speed, so they are less likely to cause an accident.

I must say it seems logic, but it's not, for example, a cyclist who wants to maintain a 32kph speed in a straight line for miles, is putting a tremendous effort, and so his vision is altered by the effort, so he is less likely to react than a "non sportive" cyclist who has the help of an electric motor at 32kph.

Also, getting used to speed is the same for someone who has to put his muscles in it, or someone who doesn't, because the important thing imho is to be able to anticipate and react quickly (breaking and turning) not just being able to pedal to a certain speed.

Going back to EUC, I think maybe there should be a gradual speed limit, like on the ninebot, first hour 15kph, second hour 20kph, fifth hour full speed if that makes sense..

If you het hit by an EUC, its either very bad luck, or the rider didn't respect some safety logics...when I ride I don't see, unless there is a failure, how I would hit someone at 25kph, and this failure could also occure on a car, with much more damage..

[Mono]

36 minutes ago, Pingouin said:

and this failure could also occure on a car, with much more damage..

sure, at that is why cars, when they don't have type inherent speed limits, they do have obligatory type approval, insurance, drivers license. It's a recurrent discussion. All non-human powered devices, including e-bikes, are restricted in some of these ways.

Taking it from there, what is the argument EUCs should be the only ones that are not? Why should we allow EUCs being built and sold without type approval and driven without licence which weigh 120kg and can go 170km/h?

[Pingouin]

15 minutes ago, Mono said:

sure, at that is why cars, when they don't have type inherent speed limits, they do have obligatory type approval, insurance, drivers license. It's a recurrent discussion. All non-human powered devices, including e-bikes, are restricted in some of these ways.

Taking it from there, what is the argument EUCs should be the only ones that are not? Why should we allow EUCs being built and sold without type approval and driven without licence which weigh 120kg and can go 170km/h?

I'm not so sure that limiting the EUC to slow speeds will avoid accidents (most accidents I've seen with EUC occure at low speeds anyway), it might only take away some riders because they won't want to ride anymore, too much restrictions may simply kill EUC, and these people will take there car again, not so sure it's better ^^ Take the example of germany and the "no speed limits", is there more accidents there ? I think that leaving some freedom to people can prevent tragic accidents from occuring, most people know how to "contain" themselves, and the ones that don't, won't respect the 25kph or 18kph speed limit anyway..

I would say that limiting the EUC speed to 32kph like e-bikes in the US would be the best thing to preserve freedom and safety, and it may happen in Europe. I wouldn't be against a drivers licence for EUC, like for small scooters, if it would let us go a little faster, and then have an insurance. I think that most EUC have insurance you just have to check it with yours (I do have one)

[OliverH]

3 hours ago, em1barns said:

Belgian law is already the most unicycle friendly in Europe, and a study by the road law body is looking at how to enhance current regulations.

There are still 2 sticky points in current law:

- speed limit is defined at 18km/h

- speed limit should be enforced by manufacturer

Main issue is the latter. How could one properly define speed limit for euc? 

How is it defined in Plev?

How could definition be made compatible with current euc, so that insurances could cover our euc? 

@Jason McNeil, @OliverH, @RenaissanceMan, any take on this? Thanks in advance to everyone for your thoughts. 

There's a lot finger pointing, talks on overregulation. In the end it's very simple, follow the rules.

France started with a regulation process right now. As of today EUCs are accepted (today officially allowed?). Hopefully this will be on base of PLEV standard of European Commission.

Speed is one part:

• pedestrian locked mode (per switch) as a requirement from Scandinavia 
• top speed we see different values in Europe, mostly 20/25 km/h (helmet yes/no)

Speed is not the major problem. The challenge is one sentence of the "safety of machinery" (valid in the European Union) which ends in redundancy for EUCs. Without this safety feature there will be no regulated EUC legally on street. No redundancy, no relevant sales. There're 3 companies in China able to do it with 3rd party support (to do it right to pass approval/ (self) certification process). I've bee aware of one PoC (Proof of concept) of this 3 companies. I'm not sure one of this will deliver an EUC compatible to regulations. This story is very easy: The first capable to deliver a "safety compliant" EUC will dominate the market. Sales figures will increase dramatically in Europe, outperform Asian sales figures easily. Take it or leave it. Only being first matters.

[Mono]

11 minutes ago, Pingouin said:

Take the example of germany and the "no speed limits", is there more accidents there ?

Yes. To all I know there is overwhelming evidence that speed limits reduce the number of severe accidents. Besides, there are not anymore that many highway mileage in Germany without any speed limit, probably for that very reason. This  no-speed-limit-thing in Germany is a political and corporate lobbyist issue, but it's probably also not that a big deal either way.

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, OliverH said:

<snip>

The first capable to deliver a "safety compliant" EUC will dominate the market. Sales figures will increase dramatically in Europe, outperform Asian sales figures easily. Take it or leave it. Only being first matters.

I consider myself an EUC enthusiast. As such I'll never buy a wheel that limits my speed or places so many regulatory burdens on the design that the fun is sucked out of the wheel.

I sure wish we had sales numbers like we do with cars. We know how many BMW's were sold in any particular country. It's a big guessing game with EUC's. I think that there are more sold in Europe than America, but that Asia dwarfs everyone. If that's true the manufacturers probably won't design to the European standards when they can sell them all day long elsewhere. It'll become a black market in Europe, which probably won't be that much of a problem since most people still don't know what they are.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I just think our EUCs should be treated like bicycles.

But you do understand what the problem is, right? My feeling is that you are way too smart to not see the problem when looked through the lenses of a non EUC rider or a legislator. 

13 minutes ago, OliverH said:

The challenge is one sentence of the "safety of machinery" (valid in the European Union) which ends in redundancy for EUCs.

Hasn't the current legislation in Norway, Belgium, I believe Denmark (and probably elsewhere) proven your point wrong? Unsafe, non-redundant EUCs are legal in these countries. Are you honestly believing that the European Union will criminalise these currently legal EUCs in these countries?