mrelwood Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Hello! I like to start with a summary: Two EUC's for an Airwheel A3 style device (Segwayish with a seat). 2* IPS 121+/T350+ or 2* IPS Lhotz? I have soon scored 2000km in 8 months with an Airwheel A3, kind of a Segway style two-wheeler with a seat (520Wh, 500+500W). I am physically disabled, so I ride my "Pegasus" every time I leave the house. The Pegasus has truly been a life changing device for me, as I can only walk about 100 meters at a time, and I'm not able to sit in a wheelchair for more than 10 minutes or so. Now I can ride freely everywhere, from nature to grocery store! By default the A3 has a top speed of 15km/h, tiltback starts at 13km/h. This can be upped to 17/15 with (an older version of) the Airwheel app, but it has to be done after every power-on. I recently got the idea of building an upgraded version of the A3 from two EUC's, giving more range, power, a proper suspension, lean while cornering, and a whole lot of more speed. (Detailed plans in the next post.) I have spent dozens of hours reading this forum, all related reviews I could find, and gathering a spreadsheet with specs for a few dozen models. I feel that IPS 121+/T350+ and IPS Lhotz are the best candidates in a reasonable price range. A few things are left uncertain however: 1) 121+/T350+ or Lhotz? The plastic casing is going to be mostly removed. 2) How can I make sure that I purchase a version of the device that is compatible with atleast the IamIPS app, has selectable drive modes, and the top speed of 30km/h? 3) Does the fellow Kevin's app "XIMA Lhotz" work with the latest IPS versions? Does it work with the 121+/T350+ at all? 4) Where should I buy the IPS's from? I live in Finland. I have found only Electricunicycleonline (no Lhotz) and IPSelectricunicycle (free shipping). 5) Anything else come to mind regarding a project like this? Thank you for this great forum! It has already been invaluable for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 This is Pegasus: I am disabled and unable to work, so I have a lot of free time. This project might take a year to finish, but having had the A3 change my life so fundamentally, I am very determined. STRUCTURAL PLAN: - Two EUCs, each having a square side frame on one side, bolted to the foot pedal / plastic cover threads. - The square frames are connected to each other by four arms with ball bearings: At the top and bottom, both front and rear, to enable sideways tilting in bumps and when cornering. (Not sure about the implementation, I think just ball bearings do not take side force too well.) - A box shaped lower frame in the middle, connected to the midpoints of the arms, pivoting with ball bearings. - A partial reversed bicycle frame with the rear wheel hub attached to the front of the lower box frame. Bicycle frame swivels up and down for main suspension, using ball bearings in the bicycle's rear wheel axle. - A shock/spring combination joins the rear of the lower frame to the bicycle frame, achieving the main suspension. When a bump in the road compresses the spring, the EUCs tilt forward for acceleration. The suspension in the A3 works a bit like this. - Smaller springs from the ends of the lower arms to the lower frame, to center the sideways tilting. - A cable bolted from the middle to the handlebar's turning horizontal tube, pulling each end of the cable while turning the handlebar. Each end of the cable pulls the top end of each EUC's gyro board forward, fooling the EUC to slightly accelerate, and the other to slow down slightly. Handlebar/cable is centered with springs. OTHER IDEAS: - A cheap smartphone secured in the center of the handlebar, only for running the control app as a dashboard. Charges itself constantly from the EUCs' batteries, or only while recharging the EUCs. - Fitting both EUCs' chargers in the frame, allowing to recharge both EUCs with a single, regular power cable. - A switch for alert beeps, a light, or both. Beeper(s) are located at the handlebar and lower in volume. - Battery power activated via a turning key, can't be powered on without. - Standing support leg, operated with a foot only. - Soft and comfortable saddle, with small springs. My back likes a soft suspension. Complicated? Yes, quite a bit. But I already ride the Airwheel more than my car, so it is going to be worth it. I was thinking about individual pivoting arms and suspensions for each EUC, but the forward tilting main suspension would still be needed, so I'm not sure it would be that beneficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I am not entirely reassured of the wisdom of combining 2 EUCs like that. I mean I know it can be done, but what works for the occasional trick-shot video might be considerably less practical in an everyday sense... I worry that 2 machines, independently calculating what they need to do to keep you upright, each unaware of the other, and each doing its best to cope with whatever terrain is under its wheels at the time - there's a lot to go wrong. Because that terrain will be different under each wheel, I would worry that this may result in the wheels making different decisions, one speeding up where the other doesn't, and you can imagine the sort of 'excitement' that could lead to... Sorry - don't mean to rain on your parade, and would be delighted to hear how you plan to circumnavigate that problem, but I would be remiss if I didn't at least raise the issue... CBR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 Thank you Cerbera, that is indeed a valid point. My plan was to link the two EUCs in a way that they would always have the same angle of rotation forward. I think that is as much that can be done about it mechanically. The momentum of the device + rider combination would also balance it out a bit. If this wouldn't be enough and the device was unstable, I would try to find if there was a control signal that I could split to control the power to the other EUC's motor as well. Or better yet, only make them share the gyro. If none of these would work, I would have one almost new EUC for sale. The other would make a travel version (not for grocery shopping) like this my new favourite boy did: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 @mrelwood, have you seen the bridge connecting 2 EUCs which has been sold by IPS some time ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 German video, but there's a prebuilt bridge for two IPS/Xima wheels (he says these are two A130 here, compatibility seems to depend on the pedals). Might give you some ideas, or you just use it as a base. Youtube translate should help you understand. Also consider this idea, two levers are used to control each side's tilt: (first result when you search for "hoverboard go kart kit" on youtube) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 Yes, I had seen the connecting bridge. It might be one of the sparks that made me start designing this "A3 on steroids". They only showed the dual EUC in action on smooth surfaces, but the fact that such a bridge exists gives some assurance that two EUCs can indeed work together in a single vehicle. The riding position on the A3 is very natural and suits me very well, which is quite rare. Therefore I'm going to hold on to the design regarding the riding position (and the seat). I think the main question right now is how to choose between the 121+/T350+ and Lhotz. The price difference is small so it doesn't make a real difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaughthammer Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 14 minutes ago, mrelwood said: I think the main question right now is how to choose between the 121+/T350+ and Lhotz. The price difference is small so it doesn't make a real difference. If you plan to get rid of the plastic shell anyways, the biggest difference is the tire. Lhotz has a 2,5" wide tire, whereas the T350+ has a 2.125" tire. Additionally, the lhotz has a rather funny shaped battery, the t350+ should have a more rectangular battery design. The T350+ has no LED strips. The rest should not make any difference at all. I think it's rather stupid to try to fix the two unicycles together. Instead you should allow them to tilt individually, and use that for steering. That would mean you have to build a machanism that tilts the wheel against each other when you turn your handlebar, like they do on the hoverboard cart for example. Maybe it is possible to build a mechanism that reacts to weight shifting left and right for steering? Might get you problems on rougher terrain though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Slaughthammer said: I think it's rather stupid to try to fix the two unicycles together. Instead you should allow them to tilt individually, and use that for steering. Isn't this related to the question whether you want a hoverboard vs segway type of steering? It seems that the latter leads to a more stable behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA-B8 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 If you are disabled and need to use this for legitimate mobility purposes instead of recreation, wouldn't it be smarter to go get a full legitimate Segway? What you're trying to do sounds a bit dangerous. I saw that there are a good number of aftermarket seat add ons that you can fit that looks a lot like your Airwheel configuration. Yes they're pricey but probably worth it in your situation. http://www.zdnet.com/pictures/segway-gains-a-seat/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electric_vehicle_lover Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 @mrelwood great project!! I would be glad to help and I would certainly being able to help if you go with EGG EUC components that I have experience with: https://github.com/EGG-electric-unicycle/documentation/wiki As you will be able to read on that page, seems that it have all the needs for you, including a lot of information that are valuable for someone that will do such project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Thank you for chiming in guys! Choosing between T350+ and Lhotz might actually come down to winter tires... I can't find such narrow winter tires, so I might have to squeeze in my current marvellous 3.0" Heidenaus. I'd think the Lhotz rims have a lot better chance of fitting them in. This was my morning ride yesterday... On 22/02/2017 at 0:49 AM, Slaughthammer said: The rest should not make any difference at all. Thank you for the comparison! So all apps that work with Lhotz work with T350+ as well? I think it's rather stupid to try to fix the two unicycles together. Instead you should allow them to tilt individually, and use that for steering. That would mean you have to build a machanism that tilts the wheel against each other when you turn your handlebar, like they do on the hoverboard cart for example. Maybe it is possible to build a mechanism that reacts to weight shifting left and right for steering? Might get you problems on rougher terrain though... Just to clarify, the idea is not to fix the EUCs completely together (like in the A3), but to have joints that allow them to go (only) up and down separately. A bit like a car rear suspension. What you are describing was my first draft as well, including the tilt to steer. However, I couldn't come up with a solution for a wheel to slow down when leaned towards, but to accelerate when hitting a bump. The "Might get you problems on rougher terrain" is where I ditched the idea; I don't think the individual wheel tilt would be stable when only the other wheel hits a bump. On 22/02/2017 at 2:00 AM, BA-B8 said: If you are disabled and need to use this for legitimate mobility purposes instead of recreation, wouldn't it be smarter to go get a full legitimate Segway? What you're trying to do sounds a bit dangerous. I use the A3 for both, gravel pathways in the woods as well as grocery shopping etc. Segway is indeed hugely expensive, yet I fail to see how it would serve me any better than my A3 already does. Regarding safety, I have done quite a bit of maintenance and modifications to the A3, as by default many of it's made-in-chinaish decisions haven't felt safe or comfortable. I believe that if I take this project very slowly and make every single part and decision the best I can, it will be quite a safe vehicle. Safer than the solid bodied A3. On 22/02/2017 at 7:13 AM, electric_vehicle_lover said: @mrelwood great project!! I would be glad to help and I would certainly being able to help if you go with EGG EUC components that I have experience with: https://github.com/EGG-electric-unicycle/documentation/wiki Where the EGG falls short on my list is lower powered motors, smaller wheels, and lack of history as a known safe and trustworthy manufacturer. If I build this from two IPSs, where I can fail is almost solely the mechanical structure of the frame. If I were to build an EGG, I wouldn't have the same trust on the software, or even the parts working well together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 I think the boy who built a wooden slip over frame, built the perfect machine for you. Your version just needs the addition of saddle bags for your groceries and a sturdy parking stand so it stays upright when you are loading it. Or you get a big back pack. you can sit on a saddle, and you can walk up to 100 m so you have enough use of your legs to steady it when waiting to cross the street. It's cheaper, only one wheel, and it can handle more terrain more easily than a side by side two wheeler...see other posts as to why one wheel goes more places than two in tandem. I want to build one of these and I'm not even disabled, not physically at least?. Think about it, it's an EUC that has the extra features of seating, and the ability to use your feet to guide it through difficult spots, where a regular EUC rider might have to get off or fall off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 Smoother, I have thought about that too. Having never tried an EUC, I'm just not sure if it will steer nimble enough for riding amongst unpredictable pedestrians. I never ride past 5-7km/h in walking areas. Still, when pedestrians sees me on the A3 they don't know wether they should jump to safety or ignore me. Sadly there is hardly any midground... Building the wooden box is simple enough, so it might actually be worth it to first buy one EUC and build the wooden box. If I still long for the dual wheel, I buy a second one and start building. There is just something about a 2x 1000W, 2x 350Wh device with 3x shock absorbers and springs... The thought doesn't leave me alone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 If you have the time (and the money) and you want to do it, just do it! What's there to lose? Also (semi seriously) have you thought about stronger wheels with bigger batteries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 Meep, thank you for the encouragement! I think there's no turning back anymore! My spreadsheet has a few dozen EUC models. These IPSs hit the sweet spot with cost and performance. Seeing that additional battery packs cost more than I thought, the IPS T680+ for 900€ is starting to feel like a relevant choice after all. So I'm now joggling between the T680+ for 900€, Lhotz 340Wh for 695€, or T350+ for 611€. These are the prices at ipselectricunicycle.com, free shipping in EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I just can say having never to even think about battery levels in "normal" situations is a quality of its own. So I personally recommend bigger batteries. Nobody has ever wished they had bought a smaller battery wheel. It's just a price concern. Can you somehow get VAT back if you buy the wheels for disability/medical reasons? That would make a big part of the price difference. Assuming you even pay VAT when ordering from China The site (seems to be IPS itself) says out of stock for the 680 though, not sure how fast they wil be available again. I really don't know how current this model is (looks like an older design) and if there's a better alternative. If you have decided on a price point, might be worth to make a thread specifically about where to buy and possible alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Nobody has ever wished they had bought a smaller battery wheel. It's just a price concern. Some people also care about weight. It's probably not too relevant here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 On 24 February 2017 at 1:50 PM, mrelwood said: Having never tried an EUC, I'm just not sure if it will steer nimble enough for riding amongst unpredictable pedestrians. I never ride past 5-7km/h in walking areas. Still, when pedestrians sees me on the A3 they don't know wether they should jump to safety or ignore me. Sadly there is hardly any midground... You bring up a few good points here: 1. pedestrians can be unpredictable, but you A3 is fricking huge. And when you consider that your feet are outside the wheels on the pegs, it's even bigger. I'd freeze or jump out of the way with that howitzer rolling down the side walk , too. 2. EUCs are incredibly nimble, threading through the narrowest of gaps, etc, but ONLY under the feet of an experienced rider. Without him/her on top, they are wildly uncontrollable. But you would have a great advantage; you could slow to a crawl and even put your feet down to wait, or carefully pick your way through the crowd, " walking " as you went, then ride off when the path is clear. I know I would have loved that feature when wheeling down La Rambla in Barcelona, geez, I never saw so many people wandering around aimlessly. A real nail biter. 3. I guess, in all this discussion, I forgot you can't, currently ride an EUC. And your physical limitations would seriously hamper learning, as it is physically demanding, and often injurious. However, there is possible good news. With a wooden "horse" like the kid built, wedged on top, I believe ( no empirical data here, just a gut feeling) that it would be easier to learn; and especially for you, as you already know how to ride an A3. And what's a wooden EUC but an A3 with one wheel ( and about 20kg lighter I suspect). Because of the seat, many of the most difficult EUC learning would be unnecessary, like getting on unaided, as you would always be aided, by the handle bars and seat, and the ability to put your feet down at will, without throwing the machine and you, down the road. It wouldn't be long before you could ride like the kid does. Watch his video again; he goes wherever he wants, and with style too. People wil envy you. When was the last time able bodied people envied you?! I see real potential for this option. You could even have some fun, paint it orange and put a number on the side, like the General Lee in Dukes of Hazzard ( I know you had that shite in Finland too) and get an app that plays Dixie on air horns. You could be the Bo, or Luke Duke of Finland. But leave the Daise Duke cut off jeans in the draw, I suspect you couldn't pull off a Daisy imitation. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 12 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Nobody has ever wished they had bought a smaller battery wheel. ... Can you somehow get VAT back if you buy the wheels for disability/medical reasons? ... The site (seems to be IPS itself) says out of stock for the 680 Last night took a wrong turn, and when I realized where I was, I didn't think I'd even get home. Limping the last few km, I totalled 9,8km. Lots of snow and rough surfaces. Yeah, I definitely need way more than 520Wh. To keep the cost reasonable I think I'll get the 340Wh Lhotz and expand the battery myself. A lot of instructions available here. EUC and the A3 are recretional vehicles, no way to get reimbursed based on disability. "But I really need this Audi!" IPS answered my email. 121 and 151 are out of stock, MOQ 10 units. Seems like they are being phased out. So Lhotz it is. 7 hours ago, Smoother said: 1. pedestrians can be unpredictable, but you A3 is fricking huge. ... 3. I When was the last time able bodied people envied you?! Ha! Every time I ride the A3! ? But A3 huge? Smaller than a bicycle, or even a wheelchair. All about one's viewpoint... The "injurious" part is what prevents me from learning an EUC. I heal very slowly. Regarding the looks, I think I'd go more animalous than a TV show. Perhaps a rabbit? There is a saying "being on rabbit's back" (or "riding a rabbit") when doing stuff in a hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Rabbit I is then. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted March 14, 2017 Author Share Posted March 14, 2017 Received my first EUC today! I shielded the Lhotz with rubber mat and a lot of gaffa and packing tape. After about a minute of standing on it at home (holding to the walls with my hands) I went outside to look for a suitable fence. At about 10 minutes of trying I realized it's a lot easier NOT to hold on to the fence. I cleared the ~7m length of the fence repeatedly! At that point my legs were all mushy and I had to stop. Took a video: A very exciting experience! But I know my limits (lazy legs, slow healing), so I'm not sure wether I'll continue learning or not. It's a big risk, and the rewards are short trips anyway. I'll build a quick seated prototype, and then decide wether I'll build a two wheeler or not. P.S. First class service from ipselectricunicycle.com! Arrived in only 12 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 After ten minutes you can ride back and forth like that? Wow. You guys are over in Finland have a lot of talent! I have a feeling that you will start cruising around like a pro in no time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted March 15, 2017 Author Share Posted March 15, 2017 5 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: After ten minutes you can ride back and forth like that? Wow. You guys are over in Finland have a lot of talent! I have a feeling that you will start cruising around like a pro in no time! Remember, I have more than 2000km on my Airwheel A3, so the front-back axis is already familiar. It's just the steering I was learning. Starting to get the aches now, I'm not so sure I'll continue learning... But ain't she a beauty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 I liked the hover-gokart, but here is a hoverboard with a seat and totally uncool ... love the thumbs up ... you can buy one at http://www.boatstogo.com/hoverseat.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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