Alexa Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Hi all! I joined this forum in hope to get some insight on why accidents happen with electric unicycles. I have no experience with them and am doing a little project on whether electric self-balancing devices, motorized skateboards, etc. should be legalised in public areas (in Switzerland) or not. So, here are my questions: 1. Whenever you had an accident, which category would you place yourself in? (It would be helpful if you could shortly state what happened as well) A. self-inflicted, no one else included B. self-inflicted, other people included (e.g. lost balance in public area and crashed into pedestrian?) C. device failure D. other party caused the accident 2. What kinds of injuries did you attain? Was a visit to the hospital needed? How long did it take to fully regenerate? 3. If it were legalised, would you say, that certain protective gear such as a helmet, wrist guards and knee pads should be mandatory? 4. Is it safer to drive on pedestrian walkways, bicycle lanes or the open street? What should the speed limit be for each of the options? I am thankful for every answer! Cheers, Alexa Edit: If you can spare 5 minutes of your time, please fill out the following survey: https://evaluation-app1.let.ethz.ch/TakeSurvey.aspx?SurveyID=78L1n561 The link is also in another thread I have created - just in case you have already come across it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 The most common reason for unexpected tumbles for me is catching something with the pedal or the foot. I had no injuries beyond bruises (using no protection gear) and no device failures within 4000 km on 3 different EUCs. Making helmets mandatory would probably be the death penalty for wide usage of EUCs in transportation, while it would be less prohibitive for leisure use. We can see this effect with bicycles. We probably should aim for two categories: EUCs with a speed limit of, say, 25km/h and those who can go faster. For the former I would be in favour to also allow them on sidewalks, for the latter I would be in favour of making helmets mandatory. Whether it is safe depends to a large extend whether the speed is adjusted to the situation. I think the question is pretty much the same as for cycling and you won't be able to get a more reliable answer without a large amount of representative empirical data. Safety also depends to quite some extend on which country you are living in. In the best case cycling without helmet is no more dangerous than walking without helmet, per traveled distance. On sidewalks I don't think one should go faster than, say, 15km/h, but legislation will usually require a limit of 6km/h. You might also have a look at this thread: EDIT: during the first 500km-or-so I had a few near misses and gentle touch-hits with pedestrians, bicycles, and skateboards. I apparently have learned by now to even avoid near misses, not sure if it is improved riding skill or prediction ability, probably both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 1. The only meaningful accident I had was the one day I forgot my wrist braces, then face planted down at Dover Docks by not seeing a pothole in time. My fault alone - wasn't paying enough attention to terrain, but the accident didn't affect anyone else, other than my band-mates, who had to work hard to replace me. 2. That sprained both my wrists and I was off work (session pianist) for 3 months. No hospital necessary, and no injuries to anyone else, but it was a good lesson - I have never gone out without wrist braces since, and they saved me a good few times after that... 3. Wrist braces are the only thing I believe should be mandatory, but the powers that be will find it very difficult to accept that without also insisting on helmets, which I think are unnecessary. But I am in the minority there - lots of people rate helmets as being most important. 4. All the best and smoothest riding surfaces are usually on the open road, but then you are dealing with heavy traffic, and can't typically see behind you, and no EUC is 100% error-free, so that is properly dangerous to be riding in traffic. If your machine folds under you for any reason, and you are in prime, with a car behind you, then I would imagine that it is very unlikely that the car can stop until it has run right over the back of you. So, I only ride on roads if they are totally empty of traffic, or little quiet backstreets where you only see the odd car. The pavement / sidewalk on the other hand, is a much safer place to be simply because you are the fastest thing on it, nothing ever overtakes you from behind, you have some leeway if you have an accident, and might not fall directly into the road, which is all to the good. And then there's 'relatively legality' If you are caught riding prime on a busy road in a country where EUC's aren't legal, then I would posit that that is a legally indefensible situation, whereas riding on the pavement with obvious consideration and courtesy for others, is, in theory at least, a lot more defensible in court, should it come to that... However, pavements are usually a lot bumpier than roads, you have to go more slowly, and of course they sometimes have pedestrians on them, who move very slowly, and sometimes take up the whole path, so you need some sort of warning system to let people know you are coming (see finger bell), and allow them to move and let you pass. So in summary: pavements and cycle paths are where you want to be riding until such time as the powers that be accept that EUC's could be be safe for road use. CBR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddylaz Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Depends what you mean by 'accident.' Obviously eucs have a steep learning curve, so if you define 'accident' as simply losing balance/falling off, then the biggest cause BY FAR is simply beginners not having a high-enough skill level to balance and turn consistently. If however by 'accident' you mean a sudden, serious anomaly that stops an experienced rider's motion, it's almost certainly a BMS Cutout/low battery cutout/etc (Option C) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hama Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 I have been fallen 3 times by sudden shut down of my Ninebot during the ride. This is clear category C. Cause is the battery controller which falsely detected an overvoltage and switching the EUC off without any warning. I replaced the accumulator (with this automatically the controller) with one from the 1Rad Werkstatt. Since then the Ninebot is running fine. The original one is really scrap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Paddylaz said: If however by 'accident' you mean a sudden, serious anomaly that stops an experienced rider's motion, it's almost certainly a BMS Cutout/low battery cutout/etc (Option C) I doubt that. AFAIK BMS cutouts don't even exist anymore in modern EUCs (BMS shunting has become obsolete). I agree that the lack of torque at high speed, which is intrinsic to electric motors, causes at least some of the more consequential accidents, but they can't be attributed to device failure. They are usually caused by overconfidence, complacency, or the lack of knowledge about the limits of electric motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurgen Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 1. lack of experience riding the EUC 2. lack of understanding the torque vs speed limitation of electric motors 3. overconfidence 4. (did not experience this one myself but I've read quite a few on the forum) pure stupidity ......... The the infinitisimal smal probability of a sink hole opening up under your wheel......which happend to me a couple of months ago. Luckily it was just one rectangular brick of the road surface that caved in, but when I kneeled down I could see ap pit of almost 1m deep through the hole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 2 hours ago, Paddylaz said: If however by 'accident' you mean a sudden, serious anomaly that stops an experienced rider's motion, it's almost certainly a BMS Cutout/low battery cutout/etc (Option C) Bms's nowadays dont shut down our wheels anymore! If a cutout occurred its mostly from overpowering the main board-going to the end of cycle/max speed....that is not the BmS ...its the board which stops working.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaughthammer Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: If a cutout occurred its mostly from overpowering the main board-going to the end of cycle/max speed....that is not the BmS ...its the board which stops working.... Yet, the rider is to blame for this for not respecting the limitations of the wheel. I think most accidents are caused by unawareness of the rider or overconfidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Hi Alexa, So you have no experience with EUCs, and want to find out about accidents so that you can decide if they should be legalized and what type of protective equipment should be mandated by law? (sarcasm) I just love when the government decides what personal protective gear we need to wear. Personally, I'm a fan of Darwinism. Let's start with the stuff you didn't ask... Maybe these wouldn't support your agenda? On days I use my EUC, I'm putting less mileage on my car, emitting less pollutants, and reducing road congestion. On days I use my EUC, I reduce my commute time in town (after getting off the bus) by about 20 minutes. I've never injured another person. My only injury has been self-inflicted. I choose to wear a helmet - but don't think it should be mandated by law. I usually ride on sidewalks, because in Seattle, it's (explicitly) legal to ride on sidewalks, and (explicitly) illegal to ride on streets or bike lanes. It is sometimes difficult to ride on sidewalks when there are a lot of people with their heads down, looking at cellphones - I personally think it should be permitted to ride in bike lanes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 9 hours ago, Mono said: The most common reason for unexpected tumbles for me is catching something with the pedal or the foot. I had no injuries beyond bruises (using no protection gear) and no device failures within 4000 km on 3 different EUCs. Making helmets mandatory would probably be the death penalty for wide usage of EUCs in transportation, while it would be less prohibitive for leisure use. We can see this effect with bicycles. We probably should aim for two categories: EUCs with a speed limit of, say, 25km/h and those who can go faster. For the former I would be in favour to also allow them on sidewalks, for the latter I would be in favour of making helmets mandatory. My only serious fall (dislocated shoulder) was from catching the pedal on a curb. I had a helmet on (I'm glad because the helmet did touch the cement). If I had worn a proper protective jacket, I would not have dislocated the shoulder, so I now suit up with a helmet, light motorcycle jacket and light gloves (all pictured) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 8 hours ago, Cerbera said: 1. The only meaningful accident I had was the one day I forgot my wrist braces, then face planted down at Dover Docks by not seeing a pothole in time. My fault alone - wasn't paying enough attention to terrain, but the accident didn't affect anyone else, other than my band-mates, who had to work hard to replace me. 2. That sprained both my wrists and I was off work (session pianist) for 3 months. No hospital necessary, and no injuries to anyone else, but it was a good lesson - I have never gone out without wrist braces since, and they saved me a good few times after that... 3. Wrist braces are the only thing I believe should be mandatory, but the powers that be will find it very difficult to accept that without also insisting on helmets, which I think are unnecessary. But I am in the minority there - lots of people rate helmets as being most important. 4. All the best and smoothest riding surfaces are usually on the open road, but then you are dealing with heavy traffic, and can't typically see behind you, and no EUC is 100% error-free, so that is properly dangerous to be riding in traffic. If your machine folds under you for any reason, and you are in prime, with a car behind you, then I would imagine that it is very unlikely that the car can stop until it has run right over the back of you. So, I only ride on roads if they are totally empty of traffic, or little quiet backstreets where you only see the odd car. The pavement / sidewalk on the other hand, is a much safer place to be simply because you are the fastest thing on it, nothing ever overtakes you from behind, you have some leeway if you have an accident, and might not fall directly into the road, which is all to the good. And then there's 'relatively legality' If you are caught riding prime on a busy road in a country where EUC's aren't legal, then I would posit that that is a legally indefensible situation, whereas riding on the pavement with obvious consideration and courtesy for others, is, in theory at least, a lot more defensible in court, should it come to that... However, pavements are usually a lot bumpier than roads, you have to go more slowly, and of course they sometimes have pedestrians on them, who move very slowly, and sometimes take up the whole path, so you need some sort of warning system to let people know you are coming (see finger bell), and allow them to move and let you pass. So in summary: pavements and cycle paths are where you want to be riding until such time as the powers that be accept that EUC's could be be safe for road use. Great suggestions Cerbera! I put helmets before wrist braces (I play the piano too, but by day am a business professor, so perhaps the reason for my particular priorities ) In Chicago, I typically take bike paths, and have the same problems with Chicago's bike trails on an EUC as I do on a bike. My favorite, and most comfortable trails are the lakefront trails, and typically, I travel up and down these trails (which parallel Lakeshore Drive) and then move inland when I am far enough North or South. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Chris Westland said: My only serious fall (dislocated shoulder) was from catching the pedal on a curb. I had a helmet on (I'm glad because the helmet did touch the cement). If I had worn a proper protective jacket, I would not have dislocated the shoulder, so I now suit up with a helmet, light motorcycle jacket and light gloves (all pictured) I was following the active safety approach: I am now riding a slimmer wheel with much higher pedals (I am surprised how significant the effect is) and of course I have become much more wary of pedal or foot catching obstacles over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 19 hours ago, Mono said: I was following the active safety approach: I am now riding a slimmer wheel with much higher pedals (I am surprised how significant the effect is) and of course I have become much more wary of pedal or foot catching obstacles over time. Absolutely agree, and "active safety" is part of the learning curve. I apply many of the rules I've picked up from bicycles and motorcycles in riding my EUC. I fell when I was on my IPS Zero ... the Zero has the lowest pedals I think of any EUC, but I'm not sure that would have mattered, as I was on the street, and side of pedal brushed curb. I love the Zero, as it is truly unique in its lightness and maneuverability, but also unique in that it is so short that you don't get any leverage from your calf, so all control has to be by shifting your weight. It's better for a plaza or park than for Chicago's potholed streets. I almost always ride my V8 around the streets now, and (touch wood) have not had another fall since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 On 2/19/2017 at 8:19 AM, Cerbera said: 3. Wrist braces are the only thing I believe should be mandatory, but the powers that be will find it very difficult to accept that without also insisting on helmets, which I think are unnecessary. But I am in the minority there - lots of people rate helmets as being most important. Cerbera, do you really believe that wrist braces should be required by law? (Police should write tickets for riding without wrist braces?) Or do you just think it's a really good idea to wear wrist braces? I think it's a really good idea to wear a seat belt while driving. I think it's a bad law. I think it's a really good idea to wear a helmet while on a motorcycle. I think it's a bad law. I also think it's a really good idea to wear shoes in the garage. I think it's a bad law... oh wait, that's not a law (not yet!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 @JimB, car seat belt and motorbike helmet laws have saved thousands and thousands of lives, while restricting "the liberty" of the people to which the laws apply only to a quite insignificant extend. They also have, AFAICS, pretty much zero negative consequences! I am not sure we can predict the same thing for wrist protection laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1. A 2. Slipped on ice and fell onto my wheel. Bruise on my upper leg. 3. No! Do bicycles and electric bicycles require any gear? They don't and it would severely limit their usage if there was a requirement. People are free to protect themselves. The same should apply to electric unicycles (I would consider them safer as it's much harder to injure others than with a bike, while the self injury danger is more or less the same) I cannot stress enough that the best way to view electric unicycles is just like regular (or e-) bicycles. Due to technology (self balancing) there is no requirement for 2 wheels, one is enough, that's the only difference. 4. Sidewalk and bike path are equally safe. Road depends heavily on the road. Can be anything from perfect to deadly. Speed limits: the same limits regular bikes have! Which are probably: sidewalk: slow enough to never be a danger to pedestrians (just like kids on bikes, who are usually allowed to drive on sidewalk) bike path: either no limit (bikes can be pretty fast too, and the have no limit, do they?), or something like 30 km/h (or any number that would be considered "too fast" for a regular or e-bike on bike paths, so these would use the regular car road). street: same limit as cars and everybody else Again: if there's no restriction/regulation for regular bicycles and electric bicycles, there should be no restriction/regulation for electric unicycles. I see no justification to treat one different from the other. Don't over-regulate, thanks! I shudder thinking what would happen if regular bikes were invented today. Would everyone be forced to wear a helmet and have a number plate and mandatory specific insurance then???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Mono said: car seat belt and motorbike helmet laws have saved thousands and thousands of lives ... Which is why I'm a strong supporter of wearing seat belts! I certainly wouldn't buy a car without seat belts. 1 hour ago, Mono said: ... while restricting "the liberty" of the people to which the laws apply only to a quite insignificant extend. [sic] But who am I (or you) to decide how much you should restrict someone's liberty? or what is insignificant? Which is why I think it's a bad law. Even if everyone can agree that wearing seat belts is a good idea, and saves lives, is that a good reason to legislate it? I think it's pretty well understood that smoking causes lung cancer, and while there are laws about smoking around other people, there are no laws against smoking (at least for adults) in most of the world. So, do we think it's reasonable to be legally allowed to risk lung cancer and death by smoking while being required by law to wear a helmet (still risking death) on a motorcycle? We don't need to turn every good idea into a law. Wear seat belts, helmets, and wrist guards - but keep the legislature out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 6 hours ago, JimB said: But who am I (or you) to decide how much you should restrict someone's liberty? or what is insignificant? You are playing a game. If you seriously insist that fining someone for not using a seat belt in a car is a significant restriction of their liberty you are either trolling or dishonest (maybe with yourself) or delusional and I'd rather not continue the conversation in any of these cases. FTR, I don't argue to make not wearing a seat belt a criminal offence and I don't think it is, in the places where I have been living. That is, offenders will neither go to prison nor fined into poverty. 6 hours ago, JimB said: Even if everyone can agree that wearing seat belts is a good idea, and saves lives, is that a good reason to legislate it? No, of course not. The good reason is that the law in fact saves lives and does not produce harm. I just saw a statistics where 2% of all car passengers didn't wear a seat belt and 20% of all deadly injured passengers didn't wear a seat belt. Quote I think it's pretty well understood that smoking causes lung cancer, and while there are laws about smoking around other people, there are no laws against smoking (at least for adults) in most of the world. In most developed countries of this world there are a number of laws that disincentivise smoking. Taxing is one prominent way, and in the scope of my experiences I would guess that the cumulated additional taxes a smoker pays are on average larger than the cumulated fines that a seat belt denier pays. If you mean by "laws against smoking" to be prohibition, you are perfectly right, and there are very good reasons to keep it that way. First, we know that drug prohibition has terrible, devastating consequences. It nourishes organised violent crime and incarcerates harmless citizens. Second, prohibiting people to smoke is a more significant limitation. I still wouldn't call it severe. We do it anyway, because smoking compromises the liberty of others to breath fresh air and also endangers their health. Out of interest: you are for the legalisation of all drugs, right? There, we could find some common ground of agreement but I guess I have gone widely off topic now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 10 hours ago, JimB said: Cerbera, do you really believe that wrist braces should be required by law? (Police should write tickets for riding without wrist braces?) Or do you just think it's a really good idea to wear wrist braces? I think it's a really good idea to wear a seat belt while driving. I think it's a bad law. I think it's a really good idea to wear a helmet while on a motorcycle. I think it's a bad law. I also think it's a really good idea to wear shoes in the garage. I think it's a bad law... oh wait, that's not a law (not yet!). Yeah, maybe I phrased that badly. I do mean the latter; It's a really good idea. But if people want to ignore that, and sprain or break their wrists in a fall by omitting them, then they should remain free to do so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citi Wheel Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Not paying attention while riding and overleaning. The most common cause of mechanical failure is loosening of the nut connecting the pedals to the axle. You should really check to make sure the nuts are tight every 500 miles or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted March 14, 2017 Author Share Posted March 14, 2017 Thank you very much for all these answers! I have created a really short survey and hoped you could help me out Electric unicyclists are underrepresented at the current time Here is the link: https://evaluation-app1.let.ethz.ch/TakeSurvey.aspx?SurveyID=78L1n561 Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 On 19.2.2017 at 4:12 PM, Alexa said: Hi all! I joined this forum in hope to get some insight on why accidents happen with electric unicycles. I have no experience with them and am doing a little project on whether electric self-balancing devices, motorized skateboards, etc. should be legalised in public areas (in Switzerland) or not. So, here are my questions: 1. Whenever you had an accident, which category would you place yourself in? (It would be helpful if you could shortly state what happened as well) A. self-inflicted, no one else included B. self-inflicted, other people included (e.g. lost balance in public area and crashed into pedestrian?) C. device failure D. other party caused the accident 2. What kinds of injuries did you attain? Was a visit to the hospital needed? How long did it take to fully regenerate? 3. If it were legalised, would you say, that certain protective gear such as a helmet, wrist guards and knee pads should be mandatory? 4. Is it safer to drive on pedestrian walkways, bicycle lanes or the open street? What should the speed limit be for each of the options? I am thankful for every answer! Cheers, Alexa 1. A (overlean/ outtorque the EUC doing a face plant) 2 rip bruise (Rippenprellung), 4-5 weeks problems to sllep on the side, no doctor/ no hospital, finished the tour with friends 3 A helmet is the first thing i grab when doing a ride. Other stuff depending on the speed. 4. It's like with bicycles and motor bikes. Being a slim silhouette others realise when it's to late. So preferable I drive on small roads, bicycle lane and roads in the wood. We need to separate safety/ technical requirements, safety wear and where we're allowed to ride. Across Europe this is defined in three different laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Eisenman Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 A _ 1. Whenever you had an accident, 2. What kinds of injuries did you attain? Sprained wrists, knee buises. Long term (accumulated distance) riding may be the cause of somewhat chronic leg pain from tense muscles around the sciatic nerve. Semi rigid association of the feet with the device causes repetitive use of a narrow set of muscles used to maneuver the Electric Unicycle. Bigger EUCs like the Monster likely use a different set of muscle groups. Helmet _ 3. If it were legalised 4. Is it safer to drive on ... The smoothest path with a safe distance from autos and pedestrians. **** The use of the term 'self inflicted' raises some interesting questions about innocence vs assumption of risk. Riders who faceplant or become injured from falls become keenly aware of the risks. Whether or not the rider continues to ride and assume the risks of doing so entertains the concept of self inflicted injuries. As in...well ... if you fell on your face and got hurt then why do you continue to take the risk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 6 hours ago, Bob Eisenman said: Long term (accumulated distance) riding may be the cause of somewhat chronic leg pain from tense muscles around the sciatic nerve. Semi rigid association of the feet with the device causes repetitive use of a narrow set of muscles used to maneuver the Electric Unicycle. Bigger EUCs like the Monster likely use a different set of muscle groups. I have thought about that also, you have brought up a good point. It would probably be a good idea to either change to a much larger wheel for maybe a few months, and then go back to the smaller wheel for a few months, to avoid that repetitive use of the same muscles in the same range of motion. And then the other thing, what about treatment for tense muscles from over use? What would that be for an ESBU? This could be a new thread> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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