Gotway MSuper V3s 1300wh vs Gotway MSuper V3s+ 1600wh

[danw872]

Hi all new to the forum.

A few problem I would like some help with.

Narrowed my next euc down to the Gotway MSuper V3 but I am having a hard time working out if I should get the 1300wh or the 1600wh.

Problem 1. Price. There is a massive cost difference between the 2 but only a small cost difference between the 820wh and the 1300wh. Why is the price difference so big between the 1300wh and the 1600wh?

Problem 2. Range. Having a hard time finding any solid information on what range the 1300wh is able to get (I am around 100kg). Will the extra 300wh make that much of a difference and would it justify the price difference to get the 1600wh over the 1300wh.

Problem 3. Gotways quality. Been seeing a lot of complaints about the motor wires causing issues, guessing this has not been fixed yet. I have no problem soldering on new connectors as long as Ian (speedy feet) will still honour the warranty.

I currently have a ninebot E+ use it two times a day both on and off road but the range is a huge problem for me hence wanting the Msuper.

Currently can get between 5-9 miles on the E+ depending on speed, terrain etc. I would be happy with 30+ miles of off road trail riding.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Dan

 

[Chriull]

Mabye you can get a "first" impression regarding ranges here:

But as @nomadstated

"= Real Range =

20-25 km/h urban commuting, 70kg rider, not aggressive riding, not offroad, above 15°C ambient temperature, not hilly, not windy, new good condition batteries (5km rounded)."

Every change of these parameters can have massive influence regarding the range.

Regarding big price difference between the 1600Wh and 1300Wh M3 - do they have the same motor (power)? The 1600Wh is the 84V modell?! (is the 1600Wh modell the v3+ and the 1300Wh modell the "normal" v3?) I am not too much into GW, so ... pfff...

Here is a big GW subforum

http://forum.electricunicycle.org/forum/34-gotway/

where you could get some hints, or one of the "knowing" members maybe gives you an answer right here...

[danw872]

5 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Mabye you can get a "first" impression regarding ranges here:

But as @nomadstated

"= Real Range =

20-25 km/h urban commuting, 70kg rider, not aggressive riding, not offroad, above 15°C ambient temperature, not hilly, not windy, new good condition batteries (5km rounded)."

Every change of these parameters can have massive influence regarding the range.

Regarding big price difference between the 1600Wh and 1300Wh M3 - do they have the same motor (power)? The 1600Wh is the 84V modell?! (is the 1600Wh modell the v3+ and the 1300Wh modell the "normal" v3?) I am not too much into GW, so ... pfff...

Here is a big GW subforum

http://forum.electricunicycle.org/forum/34-gotway/

where you could get some hints, or one of the "knowing" members maybe gives you an answer right here...

I did look at his thread but it's not real world use.

They both have the same motor, internals etc just have different capacity batteries.

There is a £455 price difference between the two i just don't see the extra 300wh being worth the extra cost when there is just a £100 cost difference between the 820wh and the 1300wh. Was hoping someone would have the 1300wh model and could give me an idea of real world range.

I also looked in the gotway section but still no mention of the 1300wh Msuper just the acm 1300wh.

[Marty Backe]

10 hours ago, danw872 said:

<snip>

Problem 2. Range. Having a hard time finding any solid information on what range the 1300wh is able to get (I am around 100kg). Will the extra 300wh make that much of a difference and would it justify the price difference to get the 1600wh over the 1300wh.

Problem 3. Gotways quality. Been seeing a lot of complaints about the motor wires causing issues, guessing this has not been fixed yet. I have no problem soldering on new connectors as long as Ian (speedy feet) will still honour the warranty.

<snip>

Thanks Dan

 

I had the 820wh version of the ACM and MSuper. I can say that they both had the same range (with ~5%). Fast forward to now where I upgraded to the 1300wh ACM (but still own the original MSuper V3). The ACM gives me (70kg riding weight) a reliable 45 miles with ~15% battery remaining. This includes a lot of hard (fast) riding. So far these have been in 60 - 65 degree temp conditions.

Therefore, based on my previous experience, I would expect the 1300wh version of the MSuper to get the same ~45 miles.  I imagine that the 1600wh version provides another ~15 miles.

The 1600wh version of the MSuper uses a higher capacity battery type, not more batteries, than the 1300wh version. These higher capacity batteries must cost a lot more to procure.

Your weight will have a non-trivial impact on range. From my personal experience as someone who enjoys longs rides I will now always get the largest battery capacity available.

Given your weight and the desire to travel 30 miles I would opt for the 1600wh version. It's best to have battery margin rather than always being on the edge towards the end of your rides.

And regarding Gotway quality, there has been a lot of discussion recently about wires, but keep in mind all the 'noise' (which I've been contributing to) has been surrounding  2 or 3 incidents. I believe the vast majority of Gotway owners have had no problems, including myself.

Good luck with your choice.

[Shoe73]

Since its a Gotway specific question I'll move it to the Gotway section. 

[danw872]

Took the plunge and ordered the 1300wh Msuper couldn't justify the extra £455 for 300wh extra.

Time to get the E+ up for sale.

Has anyone found a good road/dirt tyre for the msuper? Been using the schwalbe mad mike and black jack on the E+ and they are great but the side walls are weak. Don't think these would be a good choice on the Msuper with the extra weight and power.

If any one has any suggestions that would be great.

Thanks Dan

[Noillek]

On 2/5/2017 at 4:09 PM, danw872 said:

Took the plunge and ordered the 1300wh Msuper couldn't justify the extra £455 for 300wh extra.

Time to get the E+ up for sale.

Has anyone found a good road/dirt tyre for the msuper? Been using the schwalbe mad mike and black jack on the E+ and they are great but the side walls are weak. Don't think these would be a good choice on the Msuper with the extra weight and power.

If any one has any suggestions that would be great.

Thanks Dan

HI Dan,

 

I also ordered the last friday the Msuper V3S 1300Wh, had the same touhgt as you 300Wh doesnt justify the difference, did you received yours already? first impressions?

Looking forward for mine, also run in my current wheel a Inmotion V8 with Mad Mike tire and offroad footrests... also interested in a new tire for the V3S.

 

Thanks

Pedro

[TedTheAtheist]

I'm thinking of getting the Msuper v3s soon. I was going to go for the KS18s or wait for the KS18L, but the s is very different, and more expensive and the L will take awhile. Has the Msuper v3s been updated/upgraded since you guys posted in March? Is that the best 18 inch wheel to get right now?

Thanks.

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, Mushuukyou said:

I'm thinking of getting the Msuper v3s soon. I was going to go for the KS18s or wait for the KS18L, but the s is very different, and more expensive and the L will take awhile. Has the Msuper v3s been updated/upgraded since you guys posted in March? Is that the best 18 inch wheel to get right now?

Thanks.

Best is subjective, but I think that the MSuper V3s+ (84-volt 1600wh) is the best 18-inch wheel. I did a range test on mine today, comparing it to the KS18S range test that I did a few weeks ago. I get more mileage on the MSuper.

And it's very much true that I can go faster with less effort on the MSuper than the KS18S.

As I said in my review and the stress test videos, the KS18S is a great wheel. For me however, the MSuper is the better wheel.

The KS18L is an unknown right now, and it certainly won't have the range of the MSuper because of the much smaller battery.

I have about 400-miles on my MSuper and still love it.

[mezzanine]

29 minutes ago, Mushuukyou said:

I'm thinking of getting the Msuper v3s soon. I was going to go for the KS18s or wait for the KS18L, but the s is very different, and more expensive and the L will take awhile. Has the Msuper v3s been updated/upgraded since you guys posted in March? Is that the best 18 inch wheel to get right now?

Thanks.

If I was in your shoes, I'd wait for the Ninebot Z10, but assuming you're making a decision sooner, the MSuper should be a good wheel if you're comfortable with Gotways. 

I was deciding on an 18" wheel a couple of months ago and ended up with the KS18S, but considered the MSuper closely.  The MSuper has the advantage now of having an upgraded motor compared to when I was deciding; you'll be getting a 1900W vs. 1500W motor.  It's also got an advantage in range.  If I were you, I'd happily settle for the 1300wh version of the MSuper, as very few riders find they use the full battery capacity.  Since it's not a new model, a lot of the kinks have been worked out and that's no small advantage. 

A negative for the MSuper is the potential need to replace the shims that go in the pedals after 500 miles.  It's not an easy task, and as someone without much mechanical skill, it was something I wanted to avoid. 

[Marty Backe]

9 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

If I was in your shoes, I'd wait for the Ninebot Z10, but assuming you're making a decision sooner, the MSuper should be a good wheel if you're comfortable with Gotways. 

I was deciding on an 18" wheel a couple of months ago and ended up with the KS18S, but considered the MSuper closely.  The MSuper has the advantage now of having an upgraded motor compared to when I was deciding; you'll be getting a 1900W vs. 1500W motor.  It's also got an advantage in range.  If I were you, I'd happily settle for the 1300wh version of the MSuper, as very few riders find they use the full battery capacity.  Since it's not a new model, a lot of the kinks have been worked out and that's no small advantage. 

A negative for the MSuper is the potential need to replace the shims that go in the pedals after 500 miles.  It's not an easy task, and as someone without much mechanical skill, it was something I wanted to avoid. 

A small correction. The shims do not go bad after 500-miles. I've never heard such a thing. Some people (myself included) have had problems with the shims (not on my MSuper), but it's more a function of how you ride the wheel than the amount of miles on the wheel.

I will always opt for the largest battery possible if for no other reason that safety. The more power you have in the bank the more energy is available to the motor for those times when a surge in power is needed.

I think it's still rumor that the newer MSuper's will have the upgraded motor. We know that the new ACM does, but I haven't seen any advert's for a different MSuper. Let me know if you have have solid information on this.

I'm very interested in the Z10, but that's a huge unknown from a company that tends to play on the conservative side. If you want speed and range I'd place my money on Gotway vs Ninebot.

[mezzanine]

24 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

A small correction. The shims do not go bad after 500-miles. I've never heard such a thing. Some people (myself included) have had problems with the shims (not on my MSuper), but it's more a function of how you ride the wheel than the amount of miles on the wheel.

I will always opt for the largest battery possible if for no other reason that safety. The more power you have in the bank the more energy is available to the motor for those times when a surge in power is needed.

I think it's still rumor that the newer MSuper's will have the upgraded motor. We know that the new ACM does, but I haven't seen any advert's for a different MSuper. Let me know if you have have solid information on this.

I'm very interested in the Z10, but that's a huge unknown from a company that tends to play on the conservative side. If you want speed and range I'd place my money on Gotway vs Ninebot.

Note the deliberate use of the word "potential."  My estimate of the mileage that a new buyer can expect before they "may" have to worry about the shims is based on my own reading of the incidents reported, but also on my perception that it seems to be a gradual, inevitable, process of wear over time, rather than a sudden, catastrophic failure.  The buyer should do his own research and decide for himself if possible.  The Korean Gotway seller doesn't specify that better shims be used for their wheels for no reason. 

From my perspective, there can be well-meaning but poor advice given to newbs. 

As an example, a couple months ago, a 16 year old kid was recommended an MSuper for a first wheel, and when I suggested that maybe it wasn't the best starter wheel for someone his age, I was roundly criticized.  I'm not saying you're wrong; just that it's possible to reach different conclusions based on the same available info.  Even a 10% possibility that the shims would need replacing would be a significant factor for me, someone with very little skill with tools. 

[Marty Backe]

20 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Note the deliberate use of the word "potential."  My estimate of the mileage that a new buyer can expect before they "may" have to worry about the shims is based on my own reading of the incidents reported, but also on my perception that it seems to be a gradual, inevitable, process of wear over time, rather than a sudden, catastrophic failure.  The buyer should do his own research and decide for himself if possible.  The Korean Gotway seller doesn't specify that better shims be used for their wheels for no reason. 

From my perspective, there can be well-meaning but poor advice given to newbs. 

As an example, a couple months ago, a 16 year old kid was recommended an MSuper for a first wheel, and when I suggested that maybe it wasn't the best starter wheel for someone his age, I was roundly criticized.  I'm not saying you're wrong; just that it's possible to reach different conclusions based on the same available info.  Even a 10% possibility that the shims would need replacing would be a significant factor for me, someone with very little skill with tools. 

I think I did miss the word potential. But then again 500-miles is truly a number pulled out of the air. I've been know to pull numbers out of my butt too 

I'm just providing a counterpoint argument in favor of the MSuper. All of this stuff is subjective and the buyer needs to come to their own conclusions, as long as it's Gotway 

Please don't take my post as criticism - none was intended 

[mezzanine]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I think I did miss the word potential. But then again 500-miles is truly a number pulled out of the air. I've been know to pull numbers out of my butt too 

I'm just providing a counterpoint argument in favor of the MSuper. All of this stuff is subjective and the buyer needs to come to their own conclusions, as long as it's Gotway 

Please don't take my post as criticism - none was intended 

 

Interesting the certainty with which you proclaim that the 500 mile mark is a figure pulled out of the air.  You've done your own research and arrived a different conclusion, that the issue isn't mileage dependent but a result of the style with which it's ridden.  And yet, you yourself acknowledge that you never curb jump your wheels and are generally careful not to abuse them in ways that would cause the wear you suggest is brought on by riding style. 

How is it that you had to replace your shims, do you figure?  Do you happen to remember how many miles you had on it?  Is it possible I took a sampling of the people that reported this issue to come up with a general estimate of when the problem could start to arise? 

I do appreciate that you can acknowledge that maybe you're not the most objective person in the world when it comes to brand preference.  I'd challenge you to go back and look at look at times you've made overconfident pronouncements about Gotway reliability with an air of certainty that later proved to be incorrect.  I'd suggest starting with the firmware issue for starters.

I don't think KS69 is quite there yet with King Songs.  I think he's still holding onto the notion that the 18S range issue doesn't really exist. 

[who_the]

3 hours ago, mezzanine said:

A negative for the MSuper is the potential need to replace the shims that go in the pedals after 500 miles.

I just passed 3,500 miles on my MSuper V3 1300 on the original shims. Checked them last time I changed the tire a couple of hundred miles ago. Looked perfect and the wheel rides great. I'll chalk it up to good luck and healthy living.

One comment on 1300 vs. 1600, purely a subjective opinion, but it seems to me that the 2.9Ah Panasonics in the 1300 have more "sag" than the 3.5 Ah Sanyos in the 1600, in other words, when you dig deep for power, you can watch your battery (temporarily) "sag" to a lower level of charge before rebounding after the heavy use is over. Seems to be less prominent in the Sanyo cells from what I have seen.

[mezzanine]

18 minutes ago, who_the said:

I just passed 3,500 miles on my MSuper V3 1300 on the original shims. Checked them last time I changed the tire a couple of hundred miles ago. Looked perfect and the wheel rides great. I'll chalk it up to good luck and healthy living.

One comment on 1300 vs. 1600, purely a subjective opinion, but it seems to me that the 2.9Ah Panasonics in the 1300 have more "sag" than the 3.5 Ah Sanyos in the 1600, in other words, when you dig deep for power, you can watch your battery (temporarily) "sag" to a lower level of charge before rebounding after the heavy use is over. Seems to be less prominent in the Sanyo cells from what I have seen.

I think the issue is more common on the Monster.  I noticed that Marty had to tighten his axle nuts at the 600 mile mark.  I didn't suggest that all MSupers will have deformed shims by the 500 mile mark, simply that some riders have reported the problem arising around that mileage, and that as someone with very little mechanical ability or inclination, even a small chance that I'd have to do serious maintenance like that was enough to be a factor in my decision making process. 

I'd point to the data provided by large sellers like Ecodrift, the Russian Gotway distributor, for a better source of the relative (un)reliability of MSupers.  I think one in three had problems within the first year, if memory serves.  

[Marty Backe]

31 minutes ago, who_the said:

I just passed 3,500 miles on my MSuper V3 1300 on the original shims. Checked them last time I changed the tire a couple of hundred miles ago. Looked perfect and the wheel rides great. I'll chalk it up to good luck and healthy living.

One comment on 1300 vs. 1600, purely a subjective opinion, but it seems to me that the 2.9Ah Panasonics in the 1300 have more "sag" than the 3.5 Ah Sanyos in the 1600, in other words, when you dig deep for power, you can watch your battery (temporarily) "sag" to a lower level of charge before rebounding after the heavy use is over. Seems to be less prominent in the Sanyo cells from what I have seen.

3500-miles. Wow, that's impressive. I'm afraid I spread my riding among too many wheels to ever get that kind of number on any given wheel of mine. Good data point 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, mezzanine said:

 

Interesting the certainty with which you proclaim that the 500 mile mark is a figure pulled out of the air.  You've done your own research and arrived a different conclusion, that the issue isn't mileage dependent but a result of the style with which it's ridden.  And yet, you yourself acknowledge that you never curb jump your wheels and are generally careful not to abuse them in ways that would cause the wear you suggest is brought on by riding style. 

How is it that you had to replace your shims, do you figure?  Do you happen to remember how many miles you had on it?  Is it possible I took a sampling of the people that reported this issue to come up with a general estimate of when the problem could start to arise? 

I do appreciate that you can acknowledge that maybe you're not the most objective person in the world when it comes to brand preference.  I'd challenge you to go back and look at look at times you've made overconfident pronouncements about Gotway reliability with an air of certainty that later proved to be incorrect.  I'd suggest starting with the firmware issue for starters.

I don't think KS69 is quite there yet with King Songs.  I think he's still holding onto the notion that the 18S range issue doesn't really exist. 

I'll stand by the 500-mile mark.

Gotway does need to change how they secure the pedal brackets to the motor because it's an obvious weak point. I just think that almost random if any particular wheel will exhibit the problem.

Look at some of my original Monster videos where I was riding the hell out of it on mountain trails (ruts, rocks, etc). So although I don't jump curbs, my trail riding can be abusive.

I've only tightened the axle nuts on my Monster, and I was only partially successful. Sometime in the next few miles I'll have to do a proper fix. My ACM is now exhibiting symptoms, but I installed those, so maybe I didn't tighten them enough when I rebuilt the ACM. Haven't had the problem with any of my other wheels.

The wheel choice debate will go on forever. Those who want ultimate safety and reliability should stick with KingSong. Those how can accept more risk and higher maintenance for a return of a funner wheel should buy Gotway. That's my subjective opinion.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

Regarding wheels and versions... Do I recall talk of the MSuper being "upgraded" to use the Tesla motor? 

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Regarding wheels and versions... Do I recall talk of the MSuper being "upgraded" to use the Tesla motor? 

I've heard a couple people speculate, but I've seen no evidence of such. Yet I'm a couple of weeks away from receiving my Tesla version of the ACM, so I know that's real.

[meepmeepmayer]

8 hours ago, Mushuukyou said:

I'm thinking of getting the Msuper v3s soon. I was going to go for the KS18s or wait for the KS18L, but the s is very different, and more expensive and the L will take awhile. Has the Msuper v3s been updated/upgraded since you guys posted in March? Is that the best 18 inch wheel to get right now?

Thanks.

Nothing wrong with buying an ms3 now, but:

• It's a Gotway. Would this be your first wheel? What are you planning to use it for?
• While we know nothing for sure, it is quite likely we'll see an upgraded version with the Tesla motor soon, just like with the ACM. This implies a thicker axle and thicker cabling, which are both BIG improvements (not limited to, but including safety) over the status quo, and if I'd get an msuper V3, I would want to make absolutely sure you get such an upgraded version.
  Maybe @Jason McNeil can add some facts?
• There are indeed other 18 inch wheels coming in the not-too-far-off future. Ninebot One Z, 18L, ...

TLDR: You can buy one now, but it's kind of a bad time to do so, to be honest, if it may get significantly upgraded soon. In a few months, the EUC world might have changed quite a bit. But that does not help you if you want a wheel now Tell us some more about your situation.

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Nothing wrong with buying an ms3 now, but:

• It's a Gotway. Would this be your first wheel? What are you planning to use it for?
• While we know nothing for sure, it is quite likely we'll see an upgraded version with the Tesla motor soon, just like with the ACM. This implies a thicker axle and thicker cabling, which are both BIG improvements (not limited to, but including safety) over the status quo, and if I'd get an msuper V3, I would want to make absolutely sure you get such an upgraded version.
  Maybe @Jason McNeil can add some facts?
• There are indeed other 18 inch wheels coming in the not-too-far-off future. Ninebot One Z, 18L, ...

TLDR: You can buy one now, but it's kind of a bad time to do so, to be honest, if it may get significantly upgraded soon. In a few months, the EUC world might have changed quite a bit. But that does not help you if you want a wheel now Tell us some more about your situation.

He rides an ACM (and maybe others, I don't know). @Mushuukyou rode with us during a group ride. He's second from the left in this thumbnail. He's been riding for a long time.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

In that case (he already has a wheel), personally I'd wait for the update. Hoping it ever comes Gotway seem to be doing one thing at a time, so "after" the upgraded ACM, it should be the turn for their new 20 incher or the msuper V3 (I guess). Sure you could buy an ms3 now, and be happy with it, but the better cabling is quite the quality difference.

[TedTheAtheist]

9 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

In that case (he already has a wheel), personally I'd wait for the update. Hoping it ever comes Gotway seem to be doing one thing at a time, so "after" the upgraded ACM, it should be the turn for their new 20 incher or the msuper V3 (I guess). Sure you could buy an ms3 now, and be happy with it, but the better cabling is quite the quality difference.

My ACM 16, the older model, has gotten a flat 3 times in the past few weeks. Something is definitely wrong with it. I can't figure it out. So right now, I have nothing.

[TedTheAtheist]

14 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

While we know nothing for sure, it is quite likely we'll see an upgraded version with the Tesla motor soon, just like with the ACM. This implies a thicker axle and thicker cabling, which are both BIG improvements (not limited to, but including safety) over the status quo, and if I'd get an msuper V3, I would want to make absolutely sure you get such an upgraded version.

So, if I wait for a better Msuper, it will not be labeled the v3s? It will be a later model #, right? I'll wait a month or two if I must, but.. I dunno.