I went too fast on my V5F+

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, contactsports said:

Appreciate the feedback.

I don't plan to change my riding style much, except for less aggressive accelerations based on feedback and recent experience.  To each their own, but I probably wouldn't be riding this much if it was straight, narrow and lower speeds.  I don't use this for commuting, rather cruising around and having fun.

Would a hard acceleration like that cause a massive drain condition, and it would just kick out, meaning no tiltback.  Is that what people refer to as "folding"?  250m/450km may not seem like a lot, but I've driven this thing pretty aggressively and never had this happen.  Is the battery wearing down slightly vs when it was brand new and it can't handle this short term drain from a burst acceleration?  I'm not saying my riding style wasn't the main factor, just trying to figure out what would cause this.  It felt like the thing just stopped.

In the grand scheme of things, 250-miles is nothing. There's a lot to be learned yet, believe it or not. The fact that you are asking these questions shows you have a lot to learn. And please don't take this the wrong way. We were all where you are right now (but maybe without the stitches).

Your fall was due to your riding style in combination with the v5f. Your wheel is a woefully under-powered wheel by today's standards. It'll take a few thousand miles for the batteries to show any minor degradation.

I'm not saying to ride like a granny. But please purchase a wheel that can support your style of riding and be aware of what can happen even with the most powerful wheel on the planet. As long as you fully understand the tech, please do ride as fast and wild as you like. We just want to make sure you are an informed rider.

To directly answer your question, yes, when you demand more from the wheel than it can deliver, the wheel cuts out (or folds, but cut-out is the more accepted term). This can occur at 2-mph (heavy acceleration) or 35-mph.

Riding conditions can vary so much. A simple little bump can result in a dramatic current spike within the wheel. If the wheel doesn't have the power to supply the current, cutout. As the battery level decreases, the power delivery capability decreases. This is why many of us always recommend to buy the wheel with the biggest battery that you can get. They are safer.

[Smoother]

Sorry, forgot to ask, what size is the battery? 65-75% is pretty good, but on a small battery, a good solid demand for power can still drag the voltage low enough for a cut out.  You also have to understand that even at 100% (4.2V per cel)l,  it drops very rapidly to around 3.7V per cell.  That 0.5V difference is more or less a phantom charge.  Put any sort of load on a cell at 4.2V and it will settle at 3.7V in no time flat. So it sounds like you are doing the right thing as per charging, but as I said, a small battery (under 500Wh est) you are much closer to a dangerous voltage drop, even with a good charge level, than if you had "the biggest battery you can afford" to quote @Marty Backe.  I know all this because my first wheel has a 340Wh battery, and I found out the hard way what a small battery can do, or can't do, in this case.  My rule of (small battery) thumb, is calm the flock down when under 60% charge, or prepare to put some skin in the game, literally.

 

EDIT.  Marty's right, 250 Mi is nothing.  You have what is know in many action sports as "intermediate-itis".  You think you know all there is to know but you don't.  Not a criticism.  I've had it a few times myself.  Try having it in a powered paraglider, parked (can't fly forward because the wind is too strong) 300 feet in the air above a sewage works and a live firing range, with water behind you and a black cloud in front of you with twisters appearing and disappearing from the bottom of it!  

[contactsports]

17 hours ago, Smoother said:

What's to figure out?  it's been explained already;  Small battery, weaker motor, low battery charge, aggressive riding, hard acceleration.  If you don't believe any of this, keep doing what you're doing and the results will be the same.  You have to understand and respect the unique characteristics of electric unicycles if you want to remain upright.  You can do that at the school of hard knocks, or here at the school of other people's hard knock ( to which you have nobly contributed )

Who said anything about not believing?  I've never experienced a cutout before; lesson learned.

I would have replied yesterday, but my newbie status restricted my ability to post/reply.

[contactsports]

17 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Your fall was due to your riding style in combination with the v5f. Your wheel is a woefully under-powered wheel by today's standards. It'll take a few thousand miles for the batteries to show any minor degradation.

My knowledge on the spectrum of wheels is limited.  This wheel was appealing to me due to the size and having various revisions, the latest being a larger 480Wh battery.  Is there another wheel in a similar size/weight with more power?  I'm assuming the trade off of is going to be size/weight.  Are you saying the size of the battery is insufficient to drive this motor?  Would like more details on that statement.

Thanks.

[contactsports]

17 hours ago, Smoother said:

Sorry, forgot to ask, what size is the battery? 65-75% is pretty good, but on a small battery, a good solid demand for power can still drag the voltage low enough for a cut out.  You also have to understand that even at 100% (4.2V per cel)l,  it drops very rapidly to around 3.7V per cell.  That 0.5V difference is more or less a phantom charge.  Put any sort of load on a cell at 4.2V and it will settle at 3.7V in no time flat. So it sounds like you are doing the right thing as per charging, but as I said, a small battery (under 500Wh est) you are much closer to a dangerous voltage drop, even with a good charge level, than if you had "the biggest battery you can afford" to quote @Marty Backe.  I know all this because my first wheel has a 340Wh battery, and I found out the hard way what a small battery can do, or can't do, in this case.  My rule of (small battery) thumb, is calm the flock down when under 60% charge, or prepare to put some skin in the game, literally.

Based on purchased spec, 480Wh, without having the ability to confirm with certainty.  It's always plugged in, unless I'm using it. I assume the charging circuit is smart enough to float it after it's reached full capacity.

[Smoother]

2 hours ago, contactsports said:

Based on purchased spec, 480Wh, without having the ability to confirm with certainty.  It's always plugged in, unless I'm using it. I assume the charging circuit is smart enough to float it after it's reached full capacity.

Don't do that.  Batteries stored at 100% get damaged from adverse internal chemical reactions. Store at no more than 90% and only charge to 100% to either, go out and ride, or to occasionally balance the cells.

480Wh is a small battery.  It's adequate for general riding, and has reasonable range, but below 60% you have to go easy.  You can ride for miles below 60% but you can't hot dog it.  Anything that demands a high current puts you in danger of a cut out, where you demand more power than is available.  I have 840Wh and I take it easy below 60%.

Next wheel you get, make sure its a 1200W motor or bigger, and for your style of riding, get a huge battery, 1600Wh or something around there.  Based on what qualities you are looking for, you're basically looking in the Gotway line.  Others can advise you further.  I've run out of advice on this subject.

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, contactsports said:

My knowledge on the spectrum of wheels is limited.  This wheel was appealing to me due to the size and having various revisions, the latest being a larger 480Wh battery.  Is there another wheel in a similar size/weight with more power?  I'm assuming the trade off of is going to be size/weight.  Are you saying the size of the battery is insufficient to drive this motor?  Would like more details on that statement.

Thanks.

I would suggest spending some quality time in this Forum reviewing past threads. There's a lot to be learned here if you're motivated.

[meepmeepmayer]

Looks like you need to get an MCM5 No other wheel is going to have more acceleration and oomph, it runs circles around every other 14 incher.

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Looks like you need to get an MCM5 No other wheel is going to have more acceleration and oomph, it runs circles around every other 14 incher.

@contactsports, the MCM5 is like a Ford Mustang and your wheel would be the Ford Pinto 

[Smoother]

I don't think the MCM5 has a big enough battery for sustained hot dogging. I can't remember the actual size, I'm old and my brain ain't what it used to be.

[Marty Backe]

59 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I don't think the MCM5 has a big enough battery for sustained hot dogging. I can't remember the actual size, I'm old and my brain ain't what it used to be.

800wh. You should be able to super-hotdog it for a good 20-miles 

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

800wh. You should be able to super-hotdog it for a good 20-miles 

So you're saying there's still more than 60% battery after 20 miles of hard riding? Last time I checked, 800Wh was good for about 25 or so miles, total. I wish my 840Wh King Song followed those laws of physics. 

[Marty Backe]

8 hours ago, Smoother said:

So you're saying there's still more than 60% battery after 20 miles of hard riding? Last time I checked, 800Wh was good for about 25 or so miles, total. I wish my 840Wh King Song followed those laws of physics. 

My 650wh MCM5 (I'm still waiting for a battery upgrade from Jason) does 26-miles. I figure the 800wh should do 30 to 35, maybe.

My 840wh KS14S did 40-miles once with 20-percent battery remaining 

[contactsports]

21 hours ago, Smoother said:

Don't do that.  Batteries stored at 100% get damaged from adverse internal chemical reactions. Store at no more than 90% and only charge to 100% to either, go out and ride, or to occasionally balance the cells.

480Wh is a small battery.  It's adequate for general riding, and has reasonable range, but below 60% you have to go easy.  You can ride for miles below 60% but you can't hot dog it.  Anything that demands a high current puts you in danger of a cut out, where you demand more power than is available.  I have 840Wh and I take it easy below 60%.

Next wheel you get, make sure its a 1200W motor or bigger, and for your style of riding, get a huge battery, 1600Wh or something around there.  Based on what qualities you are looking for, you're basically looking in the Gotway line.  Others can advise you further.  I've run out of advice on this subject.

Got it.

What are the advantages of a larger motor, despite the obvious?  I'm assuming cutout is an issue no matter what you're on, based on mid battery level and inability to satiate a hungry motor.

[contactsports]

19 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Looks like you need to get an MCM5 No other wheel is going to have more acceleration and oomph, it runs circles around every other 14 incher.

Drool.

[US69]

39 minutes ago, contactsports said:

Got it.

What are the advantages of a larger motor, despite the obvious?  I'm assuming cutout is an issue no matter what you're on, based on mid battery level and inability to satiate a hungry motor.

It goes Hand in Hand with a larger battery.

More Powerfull motors you cant overlean that easy as a small weak one. And overleaning is not the same as "cuting out".

Just a small Addition to the battery Explanation. (If it was mentioned before, please excuse me)

Bigger batterys distribute the amperage which is drawn from the Motor better. And amperage is equal to the torque available.

So it is not just the watthour number alone that is crucial for a safe Wheel.

Your 480wh Wheel has 2 x 240wh packs (20seriell2parallel, in short 20s2p)...a 650wh(3x210wh) or 800wh(3x260wh) MCM5 for example has 3 parallel packs (20s3p). 

The cells used in our wheels mostly use 10Amp cells. So this means your Wheel is capable of 20Amps (2 times Parallel-2p) while the MCM5 can do 30Amps, and a GW MSX 1600 can even go with 60Amps (6times Parallel = 20s6p). When you then multiply the capable amps with the voltage(up to 84V) you have an idea which Wattage a Wheel produces in max.

480wh = 2P= 20Amps x 80Volt = 1600Watt

800wh = 3P = 30Amps x 80Volt = 2400Watt, and so on.....

[meepmeepmayer]

Great explanation @US69. I'd like to add, 10A is only the nominal (forever without overheating) stat of the battery cells. Peak is 20A for a short time or even higher. So peak power of the 3p, 4p, 6p battery packs is really big.

[US69]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Great explanation @US69. I'd like to add, 10A is only the nominal (forever without overheating) stat of the battery cells. Peak is 20A for a short time or even higher. So peak power of the 3p, 4p, 6p battery packs is really big.

Yes, totally agree , Peak can be even higher…..while the type of cells we use are not really build for that. Even when on constant 10Amp discharge the voltdrop is phenomenal high and the cells work on the Edge of chemical collapse. Also as there is no "set value/definition" for what and especially how Long "peak" is meant, no (serious) cell Producer mentions such values at all.