Jump to content
Chris Westland

Letters from China: The Official IPS Factory Thread

Recommended Posts

I have been exchanging Facebook chats with Wang Yue Yue  @王月月 of IPS (the official IPS factory spokesperson at http://www.iamips.com/en/app.html) about various IPS related topics that have arisen in the EUC Forum concerning IPS' products, testing, use and so forth, and have offered to share Yue Yue's information with the forum members.  I thought it would be useful to field questions in English, get their answers, and synopsize these for the Forum.  Yue Yue has also promised me pictures and other insights to what they are planning, how they design and test their products, and other insights.  I thought it would be useful given some of the confusion surrounding IPS products and plans expressed on this site.  

I thought the topic title captured the flavor of what I am trying to do, but I'm open to suggestions if someone thinks we can do better.  Let's go!

 

Edited by Chris Westland

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question to IPS:  Why is the top speed of the IPS Zero set to 30km/h and why can this only be unlocked after 50 km?

The 20km/h top speed was set to ensure that given the IPS Zero's torque, riding riding it will still be safe.  The highest speed of 30kmh is provided to experienced riders, and is still considered safe.  But we recognize that inexperienced riders may have difficulty safely slowing down from this speed.   In setting these limits, we developed a dynamometer test platform to perform performance and safety tests on our IPS Zero (and other EUCs).  We assumed an 80kg rider traveling to 30km/h, and assumed that the required support torque needed to be at least 20N⋅m of torque.  These are the general parameters on which we design our EUCs.   In the design of the motor, the power draw should place battery voltage somewhere in the middle when RPMs will move the EUC at 30km/h with torque that is greater than 20N⋅m.  Pictures and videos of the procedure will be forthcoming in later posts.

Wang Yue Yue related the results of a recent test using a customers IPS Zero 340w-h:   The ultimate safe speed of the EUC is limited by battery voltage at a specified current draw, and with a fully charged voltage of 4.2v per cell in a 340 w-h battery (32-cell battery, 16 series, 2 parallel) has voltage 67.2v fully charged.  Our engineers determined that the IPS Zero safely travels at 30km/h even when the voltage sags to 60v.  When the battery is somewhat discharged, their engineers recommended the speed be kept less than 25kmh for security.


Wang YueYue has plans to get back to me in the near future on the design and engineering of the IPS Zero's motor (potentially with some pictures).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Chris Westland said:

Question to IPS:  Why is the top speed of the IPS Zero set to 30km/h and why can this only be unlocked after 50 km?

The 20km/h top speed was set to ensure that given the IPS Zero's torque, riding riding it will still be safe.  The highest speed of 30kmh is provided to experienced riders, and is still considered safe.  But we recognize that inexperienced riders may have difficulty safely slowing down from this speed.   In setting these limits, we developed a dynamometer test platform to perform performance and safety tests on our IPS Zero (and other EUCs).  We assumed an 80kg rider traveling to 30km/h, and assumed that the required support torque needed to be at least 20N⋅m of torque.  These are the general parameters on which we design our EUCs.   In the design of the motor, the power draw should place battery voltage somewhere in the middle when RPMs will move the EUC at 30km/h with torque that is greater than 20N⋅m.  Pictures and videos of the procedure will be forthcoming in later posts.

Wang Yue Yue related the results of a recent test using a customers IPS Zero 340w-h:   The ultimate safe speed of the EUC is limited by battery voltage at a specified current draw, and with a fully charged voltage of 4.2v per cell in a 340 w-h battery (32-cell battery, 16 series, 2 parallel) has voltage 67.2v fully charged.  Our engineers determined that the IPS Zero safely travels at 30km/h even when the voltage sags to 60v.  When the battery is somewhat discharged, their engineers recommended the speed be kept less than 25kmh for security.


Wang YueYue has plans to get back to me in the near future on the design and engineering of the IPS Zero's motor (potentially with some pictures).

 

This is great stuff. Now can someone do this for Gotway 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

This is great stuff. Now can someone do this for Gotway 

I agree! I must say Wang Yue Yue is much more pleasing to the eye than EUC representatives in the US! @Jason McNeil sorry buddy!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

This is great stuff. Now can someone do this for Gotway 

Please give me a better understanding of what of that letter is great stuff here....cause i can't see any

13 hours ago, Chris Westland said:

Better is Wang YueYue said:

When the battery is somewhat discharged, their engineers recommended the speed be kept less than 25kmh for security.

"Somewhat?"???? Somewhat what? How do i know? :-)  A sag under 60V can even happen on a nearly full, ,lets say 65Volt Batterie.......

I think KS and GW are doing a much better Job with for example 80% alarms, high draw alarms, or getting the Speed automatically down if Batterie under a certain percentage (KS: <40%=25kmh max and going even slower on lower bat , GW <20% warning beeps, tiltback)

What especially "stinks" me off is that the Zero is also sold with 130wh as 30kmh wheel......

 

Ooooh.......and just to have something good  about the latest -brandnew- Gotway MCM3 V2 (580bucks)...only produced with  260wh, announced with 30kmh !!! It Cuts out in free spinning at 48kmh...and under load (with 75kg !!!) at 43kmh!!!....

Even with an Batterie under 20% it was able to go WITH Load up to 38 kmh: Full Proof test: Here:

 

So thats what i call safe driving at 30kmh :-)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

I agree! I must say Wang Yue Yue is much more pleasing to the eye than EUC representatives in the US! @Jason McNeil sorry buddy!

Ha ha ... the avatar is a pic of Hong Kong actress Zhu Yin (Athena Zhu) 

Edited by Chris Westland

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

"Somewhat?"???? Somewhat what? How do i know? :-)  A sag under 60V can even happen on a nearly full, ,lets say 65Volt Batterie.......

'Somewhat' is a bit weak in terms of quantifiable consideration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chris, I really appreciate you doing this. Big thanks for your work!

16 hours ago, Chris Westland said:

In the design of the motor, the power draw should place battery voltage somewhere in the middle when RPMs will move the EUC at 30km/h with torque that is greater than 20N⋅m.

Is there a way to make this sentence more comprehensible? This reads to my as if written by someone who doesn't have the slightest clue what the terms RPM, torque and voltage mean, not to speak how they depend on one another...

 

3 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

"Somewhat?"???? Somewhat what? How do i know?

You know because your wheel tilts back. All IPS Wheels have a battery voltage dependend tiltback. On my Lhotz, if the battery is full, it will tilt back just under 30 kph, but if the battery is near empty, it will start at 23 kph. This tiltback is not removeable by the user as it is on those Gotways... ;-)

Yes, these features lack documentation by IPS, it would be really nice to get proper docs with the wheel, or even better, in advance of purchasing on on the internet.

As for the power figures, I would guess that IPS calls short term max power output, not max continuous power output. I come to this conclusion because if I would lean on my 1000W rated lhotz as much as I see other riders doing on wheels rated for 800W cont. and 1500W peak, I would faceplant a lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Please give me a better understanding of what of that letter is great stuff here....cause i can't see any

 

I guess I was just thinking that it was great to get some specifics from the manufacturer. There are so many tech questions that people ask about the Gotway wheels but there's only silence from the factory. In this case there appears to be line of communications opened up, which I liked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Chris Westland said:

Ha ha ... the avatar is a pic of Hong Kong actress Zhu Yin (Athena Zhu) 

wow, Athena Zhu is the official IPS factory spokesperson but calls herself with anonymous name ...so good and beautifull as modest :wub:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2017 at 7:24 AM, KingSong69 said:

Please give me a better understanding of what of that letter is great stuff here... etc. etc. 

@KingSong69 please give 月月 and myself a bit of space to convey information from IPS.  I really want this thread to be a platform for materials directly from the IPS factory about design, components, R&D and people so we can share these across the Forum.  I think it is reasonable to debate the merits of particular engineering decisions in other threads (there are many IPS specific threads) but I would like this to be a Q&A thread for the factory to tell us more about what IPS is doing.  

Edited by Chris Westland

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What batteries are used in the IPS Zero 340Wh?

The IPS Zero uses Panasonic NCR18650PF batteries (as opposed to representations on some of the retailers' sites that they are using Sony batteries... I've included 月月‘s pictures below).  Here are their specifications that I've found on internet sites that sell these in the US

  1. Panasonic NCR18650PF
  2. Minimum Capacity: 2750mAh (0.54A discharge at 20°C) 
  3. Typical Capacity: 2900mAh (0.54A discharge at 20°C) 
  4. Nominal Voltage: 3.6V 
  5. Discharge End Voltage: 2.5V 
  6. Standard Charging Current: 1.35A 
  7. Charging Voltage: 4.20±0.03V 
  8. Standard Charging Time: 4.0hours 
  9. Max. Continuous Discharging Current: 10A 
  10. Internal Resistance: less than 35mΩ 
  11. Weight: less than 47.0g 
  12. Retail ~$7ea.  x 32 = ~$224

16111687_250451825391935_340788472_n.jpg

15996030_250451822058602_742861886_n.jpg

15996297_250451812058603_1704322334_n.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does IPS test their EUC performance on a dynamometer, and what sort of equipment is used for these tests? 

Although I don't have details on specifications of the equipment that IPS uses, I have two pictures that 月月 has sent me of the dynamometer, which appears to be a small motoring / intertial dynamometer suitable for EUC sized/powered tests (someone who is more knowledgable about these can correct me if I've misidentified the unit pictured).   月月 will send me a video file in a short time, that demonstrates some of their testing procedures.  I will host this video on my server (to avoid file size limitations here) and link to the video a later post on thread.

15992111_250533925383725_1706503260_o.jpg

16010720_250452945391823_1137834047_o.jpg

Edited by Chris Westland

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2017 at 10:43 AM, Slaughthammer said:

Chris, I really appreciate you doing this. Big thanks for your work!

Is there a way to make this sentence more comprehensible? This reads to my as if written by someone who doesn't have the slightest clue what the terms RPM, torque and voltage mean, not to speak how they depend on one another...

Yes, these features lack documentation by IPS, it would be really nice to get proper docs with the wheel, or even better, in advance of purchasing on on the internet.

As for the power figures, I would guess that IPS calls short term max power output, not max continuous power output. I come to this conclusion because if I would lean on my 1000W rated lhotz as much as I see other riders doing on wheels rated for 800W cont. and 1500W peak, I would faceplant a lot.

@Slaughthammer thank you for the questions.  I know that 月月 is reading this thread, so hopefully can respond to questions raised about my postings, and I will forward any questions that I think are still open.  It could be too that we have lost some information in translation, so active Q&A when things don't seem complete or right will help us a lot.  My Chinese engineering vocabulary is pretty limited (I rely on Google Translate when in need, which is "semi-" reliable I guess) so trust me that details may be lost or mangled in translation. :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/13/2017 at 10:12 AM, Chris Westland said:

wow, Athena Zhu is the official IPS factory spokesperson but calls herself with anonymous name ...so good and beautiful as modest :wub:

Ha ha ... the avatar is a pic of Hong Kong actress Zhu Yin (Athena Zhu) 

Q: Who is Yue Yue Wang?

Presenting ... the real 王月月!

Screen Shot 2017-01-14 at 12.48.16 PM.png

Edited by Chris Westland

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Chris Westland said:
Q: IPS 121+ circuit board. 30km/h, 350wh 。。。 do you have a picture?

12 mosfets sealed inside an aluminum weatherproof shell. I'm very impressed with this wheel and shocked to know it's one of IPS first models. I also loved the stiffness of the footpegs. They really dialed in that algorithm and wished my msuper V2 had this kind of stiffness
 
Screen Shot 2017-01-14 at 12.51.03 PM.png

From reading on this Forum and my own experiences and those of a friend I come to this conclusion: The shown control box is not from one of the first IPS wheels. This is the current version, with all electrical systems (motor control, BMS, bluetooth, LED control) integrated into the box. This was introduced when the IPS Zero was first produced, around October 2015. It was, however, adapted to all other models afterwards, therfore the "+" in the name of the wheel. Don't know though, if the actual motor was upgraded as well or just the electronics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Slaughthammer said:

From reading on this Forum and my own experiences and those of a friend I come to this conclusion: The shown control box is not from one of the first IPS wheels. This is the current version, with all electrical systems (motor control, BMS, bluetooth, LED control) integrated into the box. This was introduced when the IPS Zero was first produced, around October 2015. It was, however, adapted to all other models afterwards, therfore the "+" in the name of the wheel. Don't know though, if the actual motor was upgraded as well or just the electronics.

The newer + motor version of the T680+ that I have is much stronger than my old Lhotz 340.

When the voltage goes below 60 you can feel the performance go down. Above 60V it's is solid as a rock, and really inspires confidence.

Even when the IPS algorithm protecs you  relatively well against voltage sags, at 120kg (including gear and backpack) I prefer not to ride my wheel below 60V.- that is after around 20-25km at 25Km/h cruising speed - except when I don't get home without recharing then I stay below 20Km/h and avoid fast accelerating, braking, pits and jumping of sidewalks.

These are really good relatively safe wheels, and the customer support of IPS is perfect, but the company lacks solid marketing skills.

Trying to launch the perfect wheel somewhere in the near eternity, costs precious time and part of the client base.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jurgen said:

The newer + motor version of the T680+ that I have is much stronger than my old Lhotz 340.

When the voltage goes below 60 you can feel the performance go down. Above 60V it's is solid as a rock, and really inspires confidence.

Even when the IPS algorithm protecs you  relatively well against voltage sags, at 120kg (including gear and backpack) I prefer not to ride my wheel below 60V.- that is after around 20-25km at 25Km/h cruising speed - except when I don't get home without recharing then I stay below 20Km/h and avoid fast accelerating, braking, pits and jumping of sidewalks.

These are really good relatively safe wheels, and the customer support of IPS is perfect, but the company lacks solid marketing skills.

Trying to launch the perfect wheel somewhere in the near eternity, costs precious time and part of the client base.

This is good information.  Yes, the US / European marketing is not very good.  Wang Yue Yue initially told me she didn't think that forums were very important.  In a time when all marketing in fundamentally "social" that is a mistake, I feel.    Many of these specialty companies are driven by the technical people, who may ignore or misunderstand the importance of marketing for product promotion as well as design (think Dilbert).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017/1/13 at 8:39 PM, Rehab1 said:

I agree! I must say Wang Yue Yue is much more pleasing to the eye than EUC representatives in the US! @Jason McNeil sorry buddy!

HAHA, so do i need to change my avatar? But i like this beautiful girl. hahaha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...