Ninebot started malfunctioning

[dbfrese]

7 hours ago, rdalcanto said:

Holy crap.  I am in no way associated with the guys at f-wheel, nor did I give them permission to use my video.  

If I were you, I'd add annotations to your video saying you do not personally endorse the f-wheel, and the video and a quote from you is being used for commercial purposes without your permission. They will have no way of removing the annotations and they will show even on their embedded version.

[rdalcanto]

4 minutes ago, steve454 said:

After watching your video a couple more times, it does not appear to be the same behavior as the other one I saw.  That one, if I remember right, looked more like slop in the wheel, like a dead spot in middle when putting pressure to go forward or back.

It looked like your wheel might be reacting to aggressive acceleration by leveling itself out to prevent an overlean and cutout.  I have never put that much pressure on mine, i don't think but you said your ninebot is on 1.4.0 firmware, which is the latest version.  In the app it says 1.4.0 fixed problem of vehicle power on misoperation.  Who knows what that means, but maybe the wheel is acting normally?  Does it still ride well if you accelerate a little more gradually?

There is a black box function in the app, where the wheel locks and sends data back to Ninebot, but you have to type in the problem I think.

I did use the black box function in the app, and it uploaded the data to Ninebot.  Because it is the weekend, I haven't been able to follow up yet.  If we accelerate more slowly, it works normally.  However, we aren't pushing it that hard in the video (the pedals just tilt easily if that makes any sense).  Idling is now impossible, and it is something I was able to do a few days ago, so this is definitely not normal operation.

[steve454]

13 minutes ago, Mono said:

Impressive save at 3:09.

Yes, he deliberately overleaned it and it didn't have enough power to get back under him.  But right after that he leaned almost as far and it looked like the wheel accelerated pretty quickly.

[Slaughthammer]

Yes, that lean test was quite impressive, but right after that the wheel startet to misbehave, not entirely dissimilar to Ricks 9bot

[steve454]

42 minutes ago, rdalcanto said:

However, we aren't pushing it that hard in the video (the pedals just tilt easily if that makes any sense).  Idling is now impossible, and it is something I was able to do a few days ago, so this is definitely not normal operation.

Was there any difference when you charged it back up to 100%?  Probably not, I hope you can get this sorted out through warranty.  It sucks that you are having this problem with a new wheel.

If it is not warranty due to being bought from a reseller not recognized by Ninebot, you could open it up and look at the board for burn marks on components.  Might not help much, but if you see an obviously burnt out part, you would at least know for sure that it is a failed part. 

And a new board is less than 200 dollars, with the good price you paid it still would be less than what I paid for mine.

[steve454]

15 minutes ago, Slaughthammer said:

Yes, that lean test was quite impressive, but right after that the wheel startet to misbehave, not entirely dissimilar to Ricks 9bot

I went back and watched the rest of the video, yes the stuttering and floaty feeling makes it look underpowered for a fast rider like Austin.  I had an Osdrich that got floaty on me once, like it the battery was almost at it's limit of power but got no beeps or tiltback.  Kinda scary, but I slowed down (from about 8mph) and was alright.  I think some of the cheaper brands don't have good batteries or good control boards, but I agree that Ricks ninebot might have an electronics issue.

[Mono]

Going a little bit off-topic, but I find Austins technique to save the outlean quite interesting: he spreads his legs, one forward and one backward, where the backward leg gets even behind the wheel. I think the backward movement of the second leg is quite helpful. It reduces the rotational downwards movement of his upper body which is induced by the forward movement of the first leg, thereby making it easier to not face plant.

[steve454]

8 minutes ago, Mono said:

Going a little bit off-topic, but I find Austins technique to save the outlean quite interesting: he spreads his legs, one forward and one backward, where the backward leg gets even behind the wheel. I think the backward movement of the second leg is quite helpful. It reduces the rotational downwards movement of his upper body which is induced by the forward movement of the first leg, thereby making it easier to not face plant.

And he kind of threw his arms backwards as well, he must be skilled in outlean testing.  It seems counterintuitive to throw you arms back when falling forward, but like you said, it reduces the downward movement.

[Slaughthammer]

11 minutes ago, Mono said:

Going a little bit off-topic, but I find Austins technique to save the outlean quite interesting: he spreads his legs, one forward and one backward, where the backward leg gets even behind the wheel. I think the backward movement of the second leg is quite helpful. It reduces the rotational downwards movement of his upper body which is induced by the forward movement of the first leg, thereby making it easier to not face plant.

I don't think outwalking an overlean at standstill is in anyway exceptional. It's a bit as if you're standing still and and let yourself fall forward on solid ground, and then save it in the last moment. You would put one foot in front of you and with the other push off as hard as possible, and flail your arms for balance. That is exactly what we see here. No special technique. The rear foot goes behind the wheel becaus he's instictively trying to push himself forwards with it, but dosn't get much support from the wheel he's only standing on with that mentioned one leg, so the body isn't thrustet forward but the leg goes backwards. I've done this a few time myself when I learned where my Lhotz has it's limitations ;-)

[Mono]

16 minutes ago, steve454 said:

And he kind of threw his arms backwards as well, he must be skilled in outlean testing.  It seems counterintuitive to throw you arms back when falling forward, but like you said, it reduces the downward movement.

Nice catch, yes, both arms perform a rotation which also counteracts the unwanted rotation of the upper body. Moving the arms behind the body is a little scary decision to take, but it seems to work for him. Having the arms up in the first place and moving them down is I think essential to make this work. 

[Mono]

I would be surprised even if only one out of two EUCers would save this outlean without prior training. My hunch is that outleaning the Lhotz is easier, which also makes the save easier.

[Slaughthammer]

Well, look at the age statistics in this forum, every second EUCer is over 50, so no wonder they wouldn't pull this off But any young guy, possibly doing some sports that requires some balance and jumping, would walk out of this, no problem. Look at him, he is not even remotely close to falling in the video, so there's nothing holding him back puting his arms back for balance.

Yes, the Lhotz is much easier outleaned, but my point was, that the motions are not specially trained ones, but a rather natural reaction to the situation.

 

edit: impressive would have been, if he was able to save the overlean by retracting his feet, thus helping the wheel accelerating and getting back under his body while he falls... but if that fails, the faceplant is rather epic, there's no way one can outrun such a situation.

[Mono]

1 minute ago, Slaughthammer said:

Look at him, he is not even remotely close to falling in the video, so ther's nothing holding him back puting his arms back for balance.

I kind-of got the vibe that he was relieved, guessing this from the jumping gesture he made afterwards, but this could be totally wrong. 

1 minute ago, Slaughthammer said:

Yes, the Lhotz is much easier outleaned, but my point was, that the motions are not specially trained ones, but a rather natural reaction to the situation.

As @steve454 pointed out, he is moving is arms up in front of him in the beginning. This is clearly an acquired move to have more leeway for saving it. That tells me almost without a doubt that he is a specifically trained person and why wouldn't he then use all his acquired skills. I believe we anyway know that Austin is a specially trained and skilled person, don't we? So it seems almost certain that he will save many more situations than a person with the same physical fitness but without his training, don't you agree? Agreed that the comparison without age and fitness adjustment is somewhat void, so I took the easy way out :-)

[Mono]

30 minutes ago, Slaughthammer said:

impressive would have been, if he was able to save the overlean by retracting his feet, thus helping the wheel accelerating and getting back under his body while he falls

that is a good point. What strikes me odd with many of these techniques is that nobody seems to use their knees even remotely effectively. I can save many situation by bending the knees very rapidly thereby lowering my CoG by 10-30cm (or maybe even more?) and releasing most of the weight off the wheel for some time to allow for recovery. If the wheel doesn't recover or has shut off, I of course still have to run, but so far it also worked out in these rare cases. I don't think I ever tried to outlean a powerful wheel though. 

[Wagtenor]

@rdalcanto I think we bought our Ninebots near the same time from New Egg. Mine was shipped to me directly from Ninebot in NJ.  It arrived within 2 days after ordering.  I did have to update my firmware to the latest version through the app - it is now at 1.40 or something like that.

Anyway, I've only managed to put about 25miles on it thus far. Fortunately, mine does not suffer from the problem yours have.  Also I have not been doing much idling on it except for in house with me balancing myself with hands on the walls.  My ride setting in on 2.  I've tried 0,  1 and 3.  0 was was kinda jittery, right now I like setting 2.

Hopefully you get yours sorted as it should still be under warranty. And hopefully, mine will not start doing that... Just waiting for better weather (I.e. no snow , warmer temps, and longer daylight - it's always dark by the time I get home in the evenings) to get more riding time and help my daughter learn to ride it.

[rdalcanto]

Exactly.  Newegg seems to be an authorized retailer with shipment direct from Ninebot.  There is no reason they should not honor the warranty.

[Smoother]

This is a little off topic, but not really.  The guy testing the porpoise thingy, was deliberately trying to out lean it! and  @rdalcanto original video, before the malfunction, was idling.  Now I haven't learned to idle yet, but it seems to me that this exaggerated yo yo ing is more suited for demonstrating skill, as in a @Hirsute video, and not the sort of thing one is aiming for while, oh, let's say waiting for the walk sign on a crowded city street corner.  Impressive yes, but useful no. I thought idling was back and forth in a a tightly define spot, while one waits for ones path to become clear, not much bigger than the space one occupies when stationary, otherwise, what's the point? And what's the point of a demonstration skill that could drop you on your face or ass? Some demonstration!   @zlymex uploaded a vid of his idling practice in a 1m square area, and I thought this was the goal, or even tighter control

And yes I do see why shooting the wheel from fast forward, heavy braking to fast reverse, heavy braking, repeat, might be stressful on the components.  One reason I don't do it, or regular heavy braking or accelerating.

I believe ( and this is not a dig at you @rdalcanto, just a thought that came about by all this over lean talk)  that some people are just harder on things than others. They are the people who seem to have all the bad luck with their purchases.  I notice it especially in the young and women.  Why women? because, generally, they don't understand the physics of a particular device.  I had a girlfriend who I called the thug, because she was always breaking things.  Why? because she didn't understand the dynamics of the mechanism she was trying to operate, and so excess force came into play,and so she applied inappropriate force in an inappropriate location, In an inappropriate direction, at an inappropriate time. And snap, things broke. That's why I never push Lassie with super hard acceleration or braking.  I just coax her along at reasonable rates, watching the world go by.  If I ever do practice idling, it will be within a 30 cm range, before any serious speed needs to be scrubbed off.  2c

[steve454]

8 hours ago, Slaughthammer said:

if he was able to save the overlean by retracting his feet, thus helping the wheel accelerating and getting back under his body while he falls..

I think he was trying to make it cut out, and also test the auto reset when the wheel was set back up straight.  I bet he could save it the way you said if it was just before cutoff.

 

4 hours ago, Smoother said:

 The guy testing the porpoise thingy, was deliberately trying to out lean it!

And make it cut off.  Good information to have on a wheel.  I've tried that on the NB1 a few times, but it always accelerates fast enough that is has never cut off yet.  I get going too fast to want to lean harder and have it cutoff at any speed that was faster than I would want to try falling from.  I have seen a video where a guy was crossing a street and his buddy was filming from behind, and you can clearly see him outlean the ninebot and it cuts off.

[Mono]

 

10 hours ago, Smoother said:

Impressive yes, but useful no.

I would agree with @steve454: it is useful to know the limits of a device one travels around with speed and for this it is useful to go beyond the limits in a controlled environment.

Quote

I thought idling was back and forth in a a tightly define spot, while one waits for ones path to become clear, not much bigger than the space one occupies when stationary, otherwise, what's the point?

IMHO there is no real practical purpose in idling. For all practical purposes one can instead (if one can) as quickly and as controlled and in less space just step off and back on the wheel. Idling is a useful training to learn better control, become more relaxed, etc. And it works for showing off, I guess, as people tend to find stepping off uncool. And last but not least, it's just fun to explore all kind of movements, including idling.

Quote

And what's the point of a demonstration skill that could drop you on your face or ass?

Perceived danger adds to the show off factor, it makes people more interested and thrilled, it pushes the endorphins out, it is simply part of the excitement on both sides, the actors and the spectators. That is kind-of exactly what, say, trapeze artists do. I am not a particular fan of dangerous acts either, but I still can't deny that it works for most of us.

[Cerbera]

10 hours ago, Smoother said:

I thought idling was back and forth in a a tightly define spot, while one waits for ones path to become clear, not much bigger than the space one occupies when stationary, otherwise, what's the point?

Yep - idling is good skills practice and that's it. There is almost nowhere I go where there I can't alter my ride path so that there is always something to lean on when I have to stop. That way you can not put a foot down in your entire journey if you plan well. At pedestrian crossings just hold on to the very thing you have just used to stop the traffic.

Idling is not a very good idea in public, as the situation behind you can change very fast, and the general public are not, as a rule, expecting you to be rolling back at them, so don't give you enough room to do it. At a crossing this can be particularly dangerous as you get pedestrians grouping tightly behind you, also waiting to cross.

[Mono]

18 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

That way you can not put a foot down in your entire journey if you plan well.

What exactly is the point in not putting a foot down?

[Cerbera]

2 minutes ago, Mono said:

What exactly is the point in not putting a foot down?

It's tiring to support the huge weight of my wheel on one pedal if I have to do it for any length of time. Far easier to just remain on it.

[Smoother]

38 minutes ago, Mono said:

That is kind-of exactly what, say, trapeze artists do.

Last time I checked, trapeze artist get paid for their work.  I have no interest in putting my life in danger to entertain people for free, that I don't know,  and who's entertainment I am not responsible for. If they want entertainment, they can rent a movie. As I said in another post, showing off, often leads to injury and accident.

i don't know of any "controlled environment " that does not harbour the potential for injury and pain during a " let's explore the limits" face plant.  " let's explore the limits" is just another way of saying " hey, watch this!!" Which is usually followed by pain.

fyi, I won't be exploring the limits I.e. crashing, on my motorcycle or in my car, either, just can't find the right " safe environment " these days.

I do agree, however, that stepping off, or planning ahead and grabbing a fixture, is more functional and easier on the wheel than idling.  I'm starting to understand why I have not bothered practicing these skills (idling and riding backwards) but to each their own.  If anyone feels like exploring the limits on any contraption, please film it, I'm down for some free entertainment. ?

[Cerbera]

18 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I'm down for some free entertainment. ?

Quite right  I haven't seen anyone going backwards at maximum speed on an MSuper yet. Nor anyone doing it on their hands. Volunteers ?

[Mono]

@Smoother, trapeze artists don't become trapeze artists because the get paid for it, exceptions granted. Many people love to show off in danger not because they get paid, but because they have fun with it and (usually on the unconscious level) want to be recognised and admired and get laid. And it works.

43 minutes ago, Smoother said:

i don't know of any "controlled environment " that does not harbour the potential for injury and pain

I don't know any way to leave my flat, no wait, my bed, that does not harbour the potential for injury and pain. Everything we do involves a trade off between benefits and risks. Pointing to the risks without weighing them with the benefits is just not a useful way to navigate the world.

FWIW, I didn't mean to ask you to explore any of your limits or put your life in danger, so I apologise if this is what you understood.