New Kingsong's Control Board for Ks14C

[Cloud]

Its been out for a couple of months by now, but i just got my hands on the latest KS control board for 14C. This board works with the new motors only. They have made several improvements on the board, some obvious ones listed below:

1. Motor connections is now via a proprietary connector. The user no longer has to screw the motor wires and sensors to the board contacts. This connector hooks up to the reciprocal part on the motor side and hold very very well. In fact one has to apply a lot of force to disconnect them. This cuts down assembly/ repair time and allows for a more solid connection, reduces risk of the wires getting loose. This is probably the biggest improvement.

2. Socket for power connection to the CB is now on the board itself. While this eliminates the need for a wired connection, i am not sure this is a positive change. To plug/ unplug power one has to exert force/ pressure which applies to the board itself. In time, the socket can get loose or dislodge due to this. I liked the old wired connection better with power connected remotely.

3. 40 A Fuse was added to the board. Not sure if this is necessary as the incoming line from the batteries has a fuse also. Not sure if the current on the board can still reach 40a if the incoming current is limited. If this is redundant, this may be creating another potential to unexpctedly break the circuit.

4. Mosfets were moved from the edge of the board to under the board in th middle. Perhaps this was done for better heat dissipation? Testing will show if this is an improvement

5. Bluetooth antenna was rolled into a coil and wont get in the way of other wires and screws. 

6. It is important to know when installing the new board/ motor that kingsong has changed the side where the motor wire comes in and connects to the reciprocal wire on the board. These wires used to be on the left side of the wheel - now they are coming up on the right side. So the motor has to be flipped 180 in relation to the old orientation

7. CB runs on firmware 1.24 ( latest kingsing app available  in apple store)  Cb is not compatible with the old application 

 

 

[Jason McNeil]

2 hours ago, Cloud said:

Motor connections is now via a proprietary connector. The user no longer has to screw the motor wires and sensors to the board contacts.

That's great! Those pesky motor screws were such a pain to work with (glued on to prevent from becoming loose & easy to strip) glad to see this improvement. Another benefit is that the capacitor doesn't need to be pulled upright to remove the power cable, placing strain on the fragile conductor legs.

It's curious that they would make these changes to a product that has effectively reached the end of it's production lifespan.

[Cloud]

32 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

That's great! Those pesky motor screws were such a pain to work with (glued on to prevent from becoming loose & easy to strip) glad to see this improvement. Another benefit is that the capacitor doesn't need to be pulled upright to remove the power cable, placing strain on the fragile conductor legs.

It's curious that they would make these changes to a product that has effectively reached the end of it's production lifespan.

Exactly. It is scary to lift those capacitor legs every time, they can only endure so much before they break off.

If i am not mistaken, i believe kingsong was planning to continue providing 14c for the time being, even after 14D starts selling.

[steve454]

3 hours ago, Cloud said:

It is scary to lift those capacitor legs every time, they can only endure so much before they break off.

Capacitors are scary to even touch, don't they hold a charge?  How do you make sure they are empty of electrical power?  Do you unplug the batteries first, then press the power button?  I don't know much about electronics, but I was told to discharge capacitors before working on equipment.  From what little I understand, they are like batteries that hold a lot of power but just for an instant.  Like, you could get zapped!

[Cloud]

4 minutes ago, steve454 said:

Capacitors are scary to even touch, don't they hold a charge?  How do you make sure they are empty of electrical power?  Do you unplug the batteries first, then press the power button?  I don't know much about electronics, but I was told to discharge capacitors before working on equipment.  From what little I understand, they are like batteries that hold a lot of power but just for an instant.  Like, you could get zapped!

I never had a priblem with getting zapped by the capacitor on the kingsong CB. I never really touched both legs at the same time, and touching the capacitir itself doesnt do anything.

Yes, it is a good oractice to unplug the power from the CB before handling it. 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

You can usually short the legs of a capacitor with a screwdriver to discharge them if needed.  Makes a little spark or a big spark depending on the size of the capacitor.  

With EUC's I think once the battery is removed, you can press the power button for a few seconds to discharge any energy in the caps.

Never repair cameras with built-in flashes without discharging the flash capacitor.  Don't ask me how I know.  Ouchie.    I did some repairs to a few old Fuji F31D and F30 cameras after buying broken ones off eBay.  It was a fun hobby, and most problems were simply small cables coming loose.  A few needed their lens assemblies swapped out.

With some bigger discharge caps with thin legs, be careful as sometimes you can actually "arc" a little metal off the leg.  Those might be better discharged through other methods...

 

 

[lizardmech]

10 hours ago, Cloud said:

Exactly. It is scary to lift those capacitor legs every time, they can only endure so much before they break off.

If i am not mistaken, i believe kingsong was planning to continue providing 14c for the time being, even after 14D starts selling.

Seriously, is it really too much to just spend $10 on better caps with proper mounting. I'm sure it's cheaper than sending customers new boards all the time. That single cap can probably only handle an entire 3A of current ripple as well.

[Jason McNeil]

6 hours ago, lizardmech said:

Seriously, is it really too much to just spend $10 on better caps with proper mounting. I'm sure it's cheaper than sending customers new boards all the time. That single cap can probably only handle an entire 3A of current ripple as well.

Available space inside the 14C is extremely restricted, with the existing capacitor, not tall enough to mount vertically.

I'm sure you're right that there's probably dozens of better choices for capacitors. There's a tendency among makers to continue along certain lines of thinking, simply because that's what they're familiar with. Law of inertia is just as applicable for human actions as it is for the inanimate.

[lizardmech]

They should use something like these SMD caps

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/MAL215099706E3/

6 of these would vastly outperform what they are using. Many boards likely die due to that capacitor being too weak.

[Keith]

8 hours ago, lizardmech said:

Seriously, is it really too much to just spend $10 on better caps with proper mounting.

Strangely enough, I opened my KS-14C up a couple of weeks ago because the lights had failed again (were not turning on with the photocell when it got dark) and found a 220uF 16V SMD capacitor exactly like those in your mouser link above floating around loose in the battery space. I couldn't see where it went and, after disconnecting the power for a while, everything worked again, so I've left it alone. Unless this was a spare component left in the shell it doesn't look like the SMD caps can handle the rigours of an EUC either. My 14 month old wheel has only been dropped at speed once in all that time when I lost it braking hard with a full battery and that was months ago.

[Smoother]

22 hours ago, Cloud said:

 

Its been out for a couple of months by now, but i just got my hands on the latest KS control board for 14C. This board works with the new motors only. They have made several improvements on the board, some obvious ones listed below:

 

Lots of questions here.

* why a new board, is the old one bad?

* what are you calling a "new motor"?

* are they rolling out a replacement scheme or something?

* should we be upgrading?

22 hours ago, Cloud said:

CB runs on firmware 1.24 ( latest kingsing app available  in apple store)  Cb is not compatible with the old application 

* Should we be uploading this new firmware?

* are older board compatible with 1.24?

45 minutes ago, lizardmech said:

They should use something like these SMD caps

* Is it possible to get ones exists caps upgraded to prevent one of these caprelated failures?

[Cloud]

4 hours ago, Smoother said:

Lots of questions here.

* why a new board, is the old one bad?

* what are you calling a "new motor"?

* are they rolling out a replacement scheme or something?

* should we be upgrading?

* Should we be uploading this new firmware?

* are older board compatible with 1.24?

* Is it possible to get ones exists caps upgraded to prevent one of these caprelated failures?

The old board is not bad. But as the time goes by, everyone makes certain changes/ improvements, so kingsong did too

kingsong has new/ different motors now, i believe they went to a different factory to make motors. Yhese new motors are equiped with new connectors that will match the new board connector. There are also changes inside the motor

i dont think they are rolling a replacement scheme, but if you were to buy a 14c today, they would sell you a new one. Old motors no longer available, not sure about a stock of old CBs

Upgrade? My opinion is no. I dont want to go into much detail here, but i dont recommend an upgrade. If your cb breaks try to get a replacement from the old stock. If your motor breaks, and you cant get another old one, then you have no choice but to get a new motor and a new board

new firmware - does your firmware alllow upgrades to new version? I am still trying to test it and see if this version is good. It has some nice interface, nice features ( you can download it and look at the features) but i am trying ti see hiw much it limits the speed when battery is nit full. It may be limiting speed too much. Also " hello kingsong" when powering on seems unkillable. Also i had an instance of sudden tiltback kicking in which i am trying to investigate

i am not sure if the old board can run with the new application. If it can, some features shoukd nit be available. You can try, maybe it will work. Perhaps there will be an option for firmware upgrade but i doubt it.  The new board doesnt run with the old application.

if you dont take your wheel apart regularly, and lift / bend those capacitor legs to fit the motor wire under, i woukdnt worry about replacing. If you are handy and work with electronics, then maybe it makes sense to make certain upgrades, but if not, i woukdnt touch it. 

Also, if someone decides to upgrade to the new CB/Motor, or somehow who is used to riding the old wheel just bought a new wheel recently which has new components in it, please send me a PM - i will give you some pointers how your adjust you riding style to the new parts and what to avoid

[andress]

So I had this board for almost two months now and I have ridden 522 km on it according to the app. Before I had board from December 2015. I had to switch because of cracked motor axle - the new motor only works with the new board.

The ride is much stiffer now and in the slow speeds it feels a bit jittery. Also the sound is a  bit different. There is less of that high pitched sound but generally more noise.

Speed seems to be about the same as long as one has more than 50% battery. After that you can only go 25km/h which is biggest drawback compared to the old board. I am experienced rider I can judge the safe speed by myself now and would like to be able to do that. With the 680wh battery there is plenty of juice left even bellow 50%.

On the other hand there some nice features too. Now the lights can be turned off and on from the app and can blink instead of just being on. The connection to the bluetooth receiver for music is easier. But requires to have the voice warnings turned on for some reason. That is made worse by the fact that the memory for the setting is not saved reliably, same goes for the light settings.

One thing that kind of scared me at least the first few times is aggressive tilt-back. It happens during fast acceleration. The wheel really kicks in front of you. First time i really believed I'm going down.

 

 

[Cloud]

9 hours ago, andress said:

So I had this board for almost two months now and I have ridden 522 km on it according to the app. Before I had board from December 2015. I had to switch because of cracked motor axle - the new motor only works with the new board.

The ride is much stiffer now and in the slow speeds it feels a bit jittery. Also the sound is a  bit different. There is less of that high pitched sound but generally more noise.

Speed seems to be about the same as long as one has more than 50% battery. After that you can only go 25km/h which is biggest drawback compared to the old board. I am experienced rider I can judge the safe speed by myself now and would like to be able to do that. With the 680wh battery there is plenty of juice left even bellow 50%.

On the other hand there some nice features too. Now the lights can be turned off and on from the app and can blink instead of just being on. The connection to the bluetooth receiver for music is easier. But requires to have the voice warnings turned on for some reason. That is made worse by the fact that the memory for the setting is not saved reliably, same goes for the light settings.

One thing that kind of scared me at least the first few times is aggressive tilt-back. It happens during fast acceleration. The wheel really kicks in front of you. First time i really believed I'm going down.

 

 

There is quite a few issues with this new equipment and firmware.

you are very correct on the aggressive tiltback. Now, it happens not because the tiktback is sharp when exceeding a certain speed - this happens because of the stupid speed restrictions. I feel like the speed is restricted when the battery is around 60% , then restricted even more when lower down to about 20kmh at about 40% or less ( these numbers are not precise, they are very approximate). What happens is when one is accelerating, especially a heavy rider, there is a voltage drop, and when the voltage drops during high power demand, the wheel thinks that the battery level has dropped below a certain value and kick in a very aggressive tiltback because the speed restrictions kick in !  Unfortunately, to fix this will not be as easy as removing the speed restrictions - these restrictions, in my opinion, are warranted by the changes in the new hardware..

I am sorry to say but this is not a positive change at this time, for a number of reasons which i didnt fully describe here but  i told kingsong directly about as early as about half a year ago.

unfortunately we dont have much choice after the axle cracks, and we have to get the new type motor and the new control board.

my advice to old board/ motor owners - hold on to it as long as you can before you have to change over to the new hardware and firmware.

[Smoother]

Well I bought my 14c in late sept, and allowing for the possibility of old stock, I'm Pretty sure I have the new board/motor combo anyway.  I've had the aggressive tilt back ( with accompanying butt plant, or insufficient flapping) but I don't get that f.ing "hello Kingsong crap, thank goodness;'does Kingsong think we are all 11 years old? 

My fear of aggressive tilt back has caused me to ride on the conservative side; it comes out of the blue and can really cause you grief. It's like riding beside an insane Pit Bull, that is fine most of the time but every now and then decides to takes a bite out of your leg.?

[Cloud]

13 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Well I bought my 14c in late sept, and allowing for the possibility of old stock, I'm Pretty sure I have the new board/motor combo anyway.  I've had the aggressive tilt back ( with accompanying butt plant, or insufficient flapping) but I don't get that f.ing "hello Kingsong crap, thank goodness;'does Kingsong think we are all 11 years old? 

My fear of aggressive tilt back has caused me to ride on the conservative side; it comes out of the blue and can really cause you grief. It's like riding beside an insane Pit Bull, that is fine most of the time but every now and then decides to takes a bite out of your leg.?

Well, as the say, the plot thickens. Chances are you have the new type motor ( kingsong did away with the original type about half a year ago or maybe a bit earlier )but you may or may not have the new board.   The new type motor that has the old , traditional motor wire  connector will work with the old board, and the new type motor with the new connector will only connect to the new board. 

Also you may have a previous version of software, but aparently with speed restrictions. 

I like the pit bull comparison, very accurate.

 

 

[nomad]

Does the battery percentage drop linear on KS? I mean if you have 40% battery left does that mean 40% range left or more like 10% left? I noticed this on the Msuper v3 where about 80% battery was already like 50% comsumed range.. At 40% it was almost empty... That being said the speed on the 820Wh v3 was not reduced until it dropped to 20% (can't tell exactly as it jumped straight from 30 to 20, but I suspect 25% actually). I didn't make any exact measurements but it seemed to be based simply on raw voltage, with no algorithm to make the percentage level linear. Also the app was clearly fluctuating when riding and immediately showing battery drops when power spikes happened without delay. You had to stop the wheel to get a stable reading, this seemed to back up the theory in a way..

This is not how it works on my V5F+ where the battery is linear, if you have 40% battery then you really have 40% range left too. And never any fluctuating at all on the battery level. Also it is showing single percent granularity not only 10% steps like GW did (for example you can have 43% or 26%...). Plus you can ride at full speed all the way down to 10% if you want!

I'm very interested in the KS16S for a couple of months now. But if the speed is already limited at 40% RANGE left (or even reduced at 60% left..?) then personally this is a huge drawback. I'm also interested in the ACM which I know how it works and that 1600Wh is tempting although heavy. And also the upcoming Rockwheel GT16 looks very interesting. So it's between KS16S, ACM and GT16 but I'm not in a hurry since I already have an excellent wheel!

However if this is only the battery gauge and not the actual range indication then it's maybe not as bad as it seems! I really want more range than the V5F+ especially for adding so much weight. I get at least 30km at constant full speed if it's 15°C or warmer. How much range do you get on these KS wheels from 100% down to 40%?

[andress]

17 hours ago, Cloud said:

There is quite a few issues with this new equipment and firmware.

you are very correct on the aggressive tiltback. Now, it happens not because the tiktback is sharp when exceeding a certain speed - this happens because of the stupid speed restrictions. I feel like the speed is restricted when the battery is around 60% , then restricted even more when lower down to about 20kmh at about 40% or less ( these numbers are not precise, they are very approximate). What happens is when one is accelerating, especially a heavy rider, there is a voltage drop, and when the voltage drops during high power demand, the wheel thinks that the battery level has dropped below a certain value and kick in a very aggressive tiltback because the speed restrictions kick in !  Unfortunately, to fix this will not be as easy as removing the speed restrictions - these restrictions, in my opinion, are warranted by the changes in the new hardware..

I am sorry to say but this is not a positive change at this time, for a number of reasons which i didnt fully describe here but  i told kingsong directly about as early as about half a year ago.

unfortunately we dont have much choice after the axle cracks, and we have to get the new type motor and the new control board.

my advice to old board/ motor owners - hold on to it as long as you can before you have to change over to the new hardware and firmware.

When installing the new motor did you do it yourself? With the new motor I didn't get new washers and the old ones didn't fit so I had to install the motor without them. Tina said it doesn't matter but IDK. Did you get new washers? Also the little board with the buttons is not working very well. Even though the display works the buttons don't. I'm not sure if I broke something or if it isn't compatible. Are you also using the old one? Is it working?

[Cloud]

On 22 января 2017 г. at 5:35 PM, andress said:

When installing the new motor did you do it yourself? With the new motor I didn't get new washers and the old ones didn't fit so I had to install the motor without them. Tina said it doesn't matter but IDK. Did you get new washers? Also the little board with the buttons is not working very well. Even though the display works the buttons don't. I'm not sure if I broke something or if it isn't compatible. Are you also using the old one? Is it working?

Sorry, ive been away from the forum for a while. Yes i installed the new motor. I didnt get the new washers, i used the old ones, and the motor fits, seems to be the same size, but it makes some cracking sounds when riding, i dont like it, i liked the okd ones better. Whats the little board? You mean the bluetooth and the light buttons? Mine stopped working but i need to open up and see if i aligned the springs under the buttons correctly. Sometimes they get out of whack when you close the side cover.

[Cloud]

On 22 января 2017 г. at 7:36 AM, nomad said:

Does the battery percentage drop linear on KS? I mean if you have 40% battery left does that mean 40% range left or more like 10% left? I noticed this on the Msuper v3 where about 80% battery was already like 50% comsumed range.. At 40% it was almost empty... That being said the speed on the 820Wh v3 was not reduced until it dropped to 20% (can't tell exactly as it jumped straight from 30 to 20, but I suspect 25% actually). I didn't make any exact measurements but it seemed to be based simply on raw voltage, with no algorithm to make the percentage level linear. Also the app was clearly fluctuating when riding and immediately showing battery drops when power spikes happened without delay. You had to stop the wheel to get a stable reading, this seemed to back up the theory in a way..

This is not how it works on my V5F+ where the battery is linear, if you have 40% battery then you really have 40% range left too. And never any fluctuating at all on the battery level. Also it is showing single percent granularity not only 10% steps like GW did (for example you can have 43% or 26%...). Plus you can ride at full speed all the way down to 10% if you want!

I'm very interested in the KS16S for a couple of months now. But if the speed is already limited at 40% RANGE left (or even reduced at 60% left..?) then personally this is a huge drawback. I'm also interested in the ACM which I know how it works and that 1600Wh is tempting although heavy. And also the upcoming Rockwheel GT16 looks very interesting. So it's between KS16S, ACM and GT16 but I'm not in a hurry since I already have an excellent wheel!

However if this is only the battery gauge and not the actual range indication then it's maybe not as bad as it seems! I really want more range than the V5F+ especially for adding so much weight. I get at least 30km at constant full speed if it's 15°C or warmer. How much range do you get on these KS wheels from 100% down to 40%?

Bqttery indicator is not totally linear in relation to range but its close. Dont know your weight but 30km out of v5f+ is nice. I only get slightly more out of my 840wh ks, but of course im heavier.

speed restrictions suck and quite honestly, i dont like the new motors. Hope KS are using different motors in their other models

[nomad]

Seems Kingsong is playing it safe and maybe they did the testing and have good reason for this!? I also notice the V5F+ starts feeling softer somewhere around 40% charge. When the pedals gets softer the natural response is to ride more carefully because the wheel responds slower.. But as the max cruising speed is practically only 22 km/h from the go, I guess it's safe enough to just continue with that speed to the end. I'm about 70kg but now with temperatures around 0°C I'm only getting around 20-25 km range. Also higher speeds consume way more power, that's why the V5F+ has good range, no 25-30 km/h cruising going on here...

[andress]

On 3/2/2017 at 6:40 AM, Cloud said:

Sorry, ive been away from the forum for a while. Yes i installed the new motor. I didnt get the new washers, i used the old ones, and the motor fits, seems to be the same size, but it makes some cracking sounds when riding, i dont like it, i liked the okd ones better. Whats the little board? You mean the bluetooth and the light buttons? Mine stopped working but i need to open up and see if i aligned the springs under the buttons correctly. Sometimes they get out of whack when you close the side cover.

Ok, so it seems that the buttons from old board really don't work with the new one. Not my fault after all. Tina was telling that I must have broken them...