KS16 tilt forward in rough terrain

[HermanTheGerman]

Hi,

as Kingsong riders know, the KS16 (and possibly KS18 too ?) tilts a little bit forward when entering curves. I got used to that (though didn't recognize such a behaviour at an Inmotion V5F+ for example), and its no problem (actually I calibrated my KS16 to a 3 degree angle and am thinking about increasing it to 5 degrees).

But, what really disturbs me, is, that the KS16 tilts a little bit forward when one enters the meadows or rides on a bumpy road (e.g. gravel road). This makes it more difficult than necessary to feel comfortable on the wheel at offroad rides.

What is the reason, why did Kingsong implement it that way ?

I would strongly prefer if the wheel keeps the same angle, regardless if I drive on asphalt or a bumpy offroad track.

[Donafello]

I know both of my msupers when making a turn tilt forward. Its very subtle but you can feel it. This was on both of my V2's and now my 1640wh V3

[HermanTheGerman]

2 hours ago, Donafello said:

I know both of my msupers when making a turn tilt forward. Its very subtle but you can feel it. This was on both of my V2's and now my 1640wh V3

At a turn it's fine, but where I really don't like it is in rough terrain.  I don't understand why it tilts forward just when the underground becomes bumpy.

[houseofjob]

In my experience, all EUCs tilt forward to varying degrees when entering into turns (I've ridden every major brand in my sig + did a long test ride on the current MSuper3s+).

The only thing I can think of is that the soft driving / pedal response of brands like KingSong and MSuper might exacerbate this phenomenon more than the harder pedaled wheels like Ninebot or InMotion.

[Raptor]

I have two identical ks18 but ks16 do not know, but I've discovered the calibration level, one aspect of my bike. During calibration of the wheel to get a good result to be exactly vertical (as viewed from the front or back)! When calibrating the wheel is a bit bland side, it becomes soft and poorly controlled and for turning,this tilts forward!

Now, I've always calibrate the support wheel against the wall so that almost wants to fall over (vertically as possible and keep in contact with the wall).

In this way, I have received all of the pedal position is used !

And yet, if you  ride on rough terrain ,then only expert mode ! with other modes,wheel full power will not use and starts to bend down for obstacles !

For use expert mode KS18 absolutely not biased by forward !

[Smoother]

My ks14, Lassie, does this too. I wrote about it last week.  I tried calibrating with 2* back lean, but it still tips forward on bumpy ground ( but not gravel as you said, it has to be teeth chattering rough like cobble stones).  I believe it is the control boards way of keeping your speed slow, so that it has a bigger power reserve for when you hit that BIG BUMP and power demand shoots up to cross it. But what do I know? All my wheel, Lassie, ever says to me is " get off me, you fat pig; which I often do, mit flapping.

[1RadWerkstatt]

all wheels tilt forward in heavy terrain...much lower other much higher

Airwheel Q5 tilt forward on simple stone stone street (Names: headstone in germany)

It comes from shaking the gyro....the gyro lost the neutral fix point...it is not a KingSong issue it is a problem from Gyro

 

1RadWerkstatt

[Cerbera]

Yep. EUC's no like cobbles

[Mono]

5 hours ago, 1RadWerkstatt said:

all wheels tilt forward in heavy terrain...much lower other much higher

Airwheel Q5 tilt forward on simple stone stone street (Names: headstone in germany)

It comes from shaking the gyro....the gyro lost the neutral fix point...it is not a KingSong issue it is a problem from Gyro

with an IPS I don't have this effect on cobble stone.

[Smoother]

6 hours ago, 1RadWerkstatt said:

all wheels tilt forward in heavy terrain...much lower other much higher

Airwheel Q5 tilt forward on simple stone stone street (Names: headstone in germany)

It comes from shaking the gyro....the gyro lost the neutral fix point...it is not a KingSong issue it is a problem from Gyro

 

1RadWerkstatt

That's good to know.  Finally an actual real answer to a question that has been bugging a few of us.

by the way, I think the road surface you are describing "headstone" we call cobble stone.  I'm not sure what cobble means, it's just always been called that. My Definition: a road surface made of tightly packed stones, similar to bricks, but often very uneven

ps thanks for the beeper, I now get a beep before I am thrown off.??

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

with an IPS I don't have this effect on cobble stone.

Really ? How can you not, if your gyro is hard-mounted to the frame, which it needs to be to work ? Or have IPS got some clever software thing that eliminates that problem ?

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

Really ?

yes, really. 

Quote

How can you not, if your gyro is hard-mounted to the frame, which it needs to be to work ?

I don't know. Maybe the explanation, that the gyro is the reason, is insufficient. Maybe because it has more power. Maybe because it has a 2" larger wheel. Maybe I didn't try hard enough. 

Quote

Or have IPS got some clever software thing that eliminates that problem ?

I doubt that. It's an old and pretty basic wheel.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Maybe check what firmware version you are on.  I remember reading about Ninebot Ones when riding down steps they progressively tilted forwards.  I believe the problem may have been correctly in more current firmware.  Maybe @SuperSport knows whether the problem was corrected or not.  I don't know if more current KS firmware might have a fix for it.

 

[jer]

I would say that whenever the system needs more energy you will tilt forward, the machine then says O shit we need a little more energy to keep the fat bastard up and the wheel will respond.  So  when you change direction energy is lost, the wheel tilts forward  and then compensates by giving it a bit more welly.  The same applies when you hit  rough ground, suddenly the wheel needs more energy to keep you upright, there has to be a deviation for it to respond to. It gives you those will it won't it moments, ie  if the terrain is too rough you continue going forward and have to run off as the wheel doesn't have enough power to compensate.

 

Not completely inline with Mr Rad, but he is the demon ;-)

Jer

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, jer said:

the machine then says O shit we need a little more energy to keep the fat bastard up...

I thought this too before @1RadWerkstatt schooled us.  But I like the way you put it, much better.  I gave you a rep just for making me laugh. ?

[jer]

16 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I thought this too before @1RadWerkstatt schooled us.  But I like the way you put it, much better.  I gave you a rep just for making me laugh. ?

I don't think Mr Rad is right on this one.  If the gyro loses doesn't know where it is, a bit of tilt forward is going to be the least of our problems, gyros suffering from vibrations go completely mental (random).  The wheel has to see a deviation from where it thinks it should be before it can respond to try and restore the status quo.

[steve454]

5 hours ago, Smoother said:

thanks for the beeper, I now get a beep before I am thrown off

Now you have time to yell Geronimo!!!!

[HermanTheGerman]

17 hours ago, 1RadWerkstatt said:

all wheels tilt forward in heavy terrain...much lower other much higher

Airwheel Q5 tilt forward on simple stone stone street (Names: headstone in germany)

It comes from shaking the gyro....the gyro lost the neutral fix point...it is not a KingSong issue it is a problem from Gyro

Sounds reasonable, thanks.

 

9 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Maybe check what firmware version you are on.  I remember reading about Ninebot Ones when riding down steps they progressively tilted forwards.  I believe the problem may have been correctly in more current firmware.  Maybe @SuperSport knows whether the problem was corrected or not.  I don't know if more current KS firmware might have a fix for it.

 

I'm on latest KS firmware 1.23.  At this special behaviour there was no change since 1.17.

 

9 hours ago, jer said:

I would say that whenever the system needs more energy you will tilt forward, the machine then says O shit we need a little more energy to keep the fat bastard up and the wheel will respond. 

I don't think that's the reason, because I can ride a sudden steep uphill on asphalt very fast, without the wheel changing the angle even by a bit, but as others mentioned, e.g. on cobble stone (thanks, I learned a new word )  there is a tangible tilt forward.

I didn't feel it that much on a V5F+, but need to confess I did only a short testride with it, and don't have extensive experience like with the KS16, so I can't say for sure if it is really different.

I calibrated the KS16 meanwhile to 5 degrees, and after some time to get used to that, I think for me this setting is optimal.

However, thanks all for your ideas and opinions !

[jer]

54 minutes ago, HermanTheGerman said:

Sounds reasonable, thanks.

 

I'm on latest KS firmware 1.23.  At this special behaviour there was no change since 1.17.

 

I don't think that's the reason, because I can ride a sudden steep uphill on asphalt very fast, without the wheel changing the angle even by a bit, but as others mentioned, e.g. on cobble stone (thanks, I learned a new word )  there is a tangible tilt forward.

I didn't feel it that much on a V5F+, but need to confess I did only a short testride with it, and don't have extensive experience like with the KS16, so I can't say for sure if it is really different.

I calibrated the KS16 meanwhile to 5 degrees, and after some time to get used to that, I think for me this setting is optimal.

However, thanks all for your ideas and opinions !

I think when you come to hill you instinctively apply more pressure, for me that is leaning in, to get more oomph to get up the incline, if the incline or lump  is too steep then  it tilts forward.  I don't know for sure but I  assume the amount of power applied is proportional to the angle from horizontal  anyway. The response to a small change in angle may be quite large (if the control is set to hard) , but if it didn't do this then speed control would not be possible.   The other thing is when you go up a hill things progress perhaps  gently compared to hitting say grass.  When I  hit grass and slow down I get this weird feeling as the wheel has slowed but I am still  traveling faster.  There is the moment when you continue going forward whilst slowing down and you feel the wheel trying to accelerate to catch up with you.

Jer

[Smoother]

19 hours ago, jer said:

I don't think Mr Rad is right on this one.  If the gyro loses doesn't know where it is, a bit of tilt forward is going to be the least of our problems, gyros suffering from vibrations go completely mental (random).  The wheel has to see a deviation from where it thinks it should be before it can respond to try and restore the status quo.

Your logic is sound, because " the gyro lost the neutral fixed point" needs a bit more explanation.  But you maybe haven't factored in 4 important points when considering Mr. Rads statements:

1. "Mr. Rad" as you call him is actually the discussion board handle for the sole importer of Kingsong in Germany. 1radwerkstatt. They supplied my ks14 wheel to electro-sport.de ( at the time I didn't know about 1radwerksfatt as there site didn't come up on my searches.

2. Mr. Rad bought an industrial spot weld machine to facilitate the manufacturing of customer battery packs for all wheels. Need one?, he will make it for you.

3. Mr.Rad uses a CNC machine to build larger pedals for certain wheels (can't remember which, ks 18 maybe, it's on his site)

4. Mr. Rad, does not have the best English.  Not a complaint, just an observation. So maybe, just maybe he didn't have the English  or the time, to describe a complex technical situation. 

What I took from his words, and I'm grateful that he chimed in because he's not a talker (typer), is: they all do that, it's a reaction  of the gyro to being shaked continuously.  At least I know that MY wheel isn't behaving differently than the majority, in this situation

what I'm looking for now is a down hill cobbled street with a nice sweeping 180* turn in it.  Let's see if those pedals fronts will tip all the way forward and drag on the floor ? All in the interest of science of course 

This science:

[US69]

3 hours ago, Smoother said:

Your logic is sound, because " the gyro lost the neutral fixed point" needs a bit more explanation.  But you maybe haven't factored in 4 important points when considering Mr. Rads statements:

1. "Mr. Rad" as you call him is actually the discussion board handle for the sole importer of Kingsong in Germany. 1radwerkstatt. They supplied my ks14 wheel to electro-sport.de ( at the time I didn't know about 1radwerksfatt as there site didn't come up on my searches.

2. Mr. Rad bought an industrial spot weld machine to facist ate the manufacturing of customer battery packs for all wheels. Need one?, he will make it for you.

3. Mr.Rad uses a CNC machine to build larger pedals for certain wheels (can't remember which, ks 18 maybe, it's on his site)

4. Mr. Rad, does not have the best English.  Not a complaint, just an observation. So maybe, just maybe he didn't have the English  or the time, to describe a complex technical situation. 

What I took from his words, and I'm grateful that he climbed in because he's not a talker (typer), is: they all do that, it's a reaction  of the gyro to being shaked continuously.  At least I know that MY wheel isn't behaving differently than the majority, in this situation

 

And "Mr. Rad" is not only in Kingsong Business....He was/is  wholesaler for all Kind of EUC's.

Also he is not only building batteries.(look my Gotway 1160wh thread :-)..he is repairing all Kind of EUC's since 3-4 years. Some of the improvements made especially by KS go back to his knowledge...

I got him on the phone sometimes for discussing some of my Special EUC Problems and questions....and he always has an answer or solution....

So if he explaines the behaviour of EUC's on cobblestones as "the gyro losing his fix Point" it makes a lot of sense to me.

 

Unfortunatly he is not so often here, it is exactly like @Smoother said....he is not the "writting" guy or a friend of much words....and even not in english.

 

As MSuper V3 AND KS18 owner i mhave to say that the described pedal behaviour is much worse on my V3...my KS18 is more like a hard plank...not moving at all (but KS18 is harder than KS16)

 

[Mono]

34 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

So if he explaines the behaviour of EUC's on cobblestones as "the gyro losing his fix Point" it makes a lot of sense to me.

Though it begs the question: how does the gyro find the lost fix point back afterwards (as it obviously does)?

[jer]

11 hours ago, Smoother said:

Your logic is sound, because " the gyro lost the neutral fixed point" needs a bit more explanation.  But you maybe haven't factored in 4 important points when considering Mr. Rads statements:

1. "Mr. Rad" as you call him is actually the discussion board handle for the sole importer of Kingsong in Germany. 1radwerkstatt. They supplied my ks14 wheel to electro-sport.de ( at the time I didn't know about 1radwerksfatt as there site didn't come up on my searches.

2. Mr. Rad bought an industrial spot weld machine to facilitate the manufacturing of customer battery packs for all wheels. Need one?, he will make it for you.

3. Mr.Rad uses a CNC machine to build larger pedals for certain wheels (can't remember which, ks 18 maybe, it's on his site)

4. Mr. Rad, does not have the best English.  Not a complaint, just an observation. So maybe, just maybe he didn't have the English  or the time, to describe a complex technical situation. 

What I took from his words, and I'm grateful that he chimed in because he's not a talker (typer), is: they all do that, it's a reaction  of the gyro to being shaked continuously.  At least I know that MY wheel isn't behaving differently than the majority, in this situation

what I'm looking for now is a down hill cobbled street with a nice sweeping 180* turn in it.  Let's see if those pedals fronts will tip all the way forward and drag on the floor ? All in the interest of science of course 

This science:

Don't get me wrong, I am in awe of Mr Rad and his contributions to EUC's.

 

Jer