A strong suggestion for Msuper V3 owners

[steve454]

On 12/9/2016 at 6:59 PM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

 

That one is good, but even though his English is very good, the hesitations threw me off, and having to use a flat bladed screwdriver is a dead giveaway that this is not a good connector unless it is in a factory.

I like the XT60 the most, even though you almost need pliers to pull it apart, it seems better than the Deans connector, easier to pull apart but capable of nearly the same current.

[SuperSport]

For what it's worth, if you watch one of my Mods videos (Also linked below in my Signature), you will see that I also had solder issues on the Charge Port.  When I removed the Hot Glue they use to hold things in place, the wire fell right out of the charge port.  It was obvious that they did not heat the connector enough to create a bond with the solder.  The wire had solder on it, but the connector was not bonded to at all.  The wire slipped right out.  That is simply POOR soldering by someone that does not know what they are doing.

Now that I've read your post, I'll be opening it back up and checking EVERY connection.  When I was in there, I glanced around for obvious issues, but I'll look closer.

I personally would never use crimp on connectors for this (especially the ones linked in the first post as they are super cheap quality), because they tend to come loose easily and are not a solid enough connection.  I would only use solder, although I don't mind also using the XT60's or EC5's.  If soldered properly, they can withstand quite a lot of stress.

Thanks for bringing this back to our attention.

 

[Marty Backe]

13 hours ago, xebeche said:

Reading frequently about all these various types of problems and failures on Gotway wheels (V3 especially), it seems to me that we should start to vote against obviously non existent quality control on Gotway wheels with the money in our pockets ! 
Because as long as there is enough people who buy those wheels accepting that the QC is non existent, they really have no reason to do anything about that...

I know that we are all passionate about our wheels, but shouldn't the fastest, strongest wheel, also be the one which takes all possible safety and quality aspects most seriously?
V3 for example costs 1650 EUR in Europe (820Wh version). Just for comparison, for 2000 EUR you can get CUBE E-Bike with Bosch motor and 500Wh battery - that means both veeeery nice bicycle from known manufacturer, together with the whole very high quality electric part (motor, battery, display, controller). My point is we are not talking peanut money for these wheels here and we should expect and demand some quality from manufacturers for that.

The problem is that there is no alternative to the Gotway ACM or MSuper V3 if what you want is power and speed. I would like nothing better then to speak with my money and go elsewhere, but there is no elsewhere. Now of course if they were totally unreliable I would have no alternative but to sit on the sidelines and ride weak, slow wheels. But many people (me included) have had no problems with Gotway wheels (I've ridden two separate ACMs for hundreds of miles and a MSuper V3 for hundreds of miles). So I still think you have a fair chance of getting a good one. Lets hope I didn't just jinx myself and break an arm next week 

 

[SuperSport]

Also, for what it's worth, I've never had a failure with my V3 either,  and it is still my favorite wheel that I've owned so far.  The major components used are some of the best on the market. The issue is the quality control is very poor during assembly.  Fortunately for me, I'm able to take care of these things myself, but for some people, that's just not possible. I'll still stick with GotWay, I'll just continue to inspect them myself.

[Smoother]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Lets hope I didn't just jinx myself and break an arm next week 

Yeah it's funny how superstition creeps into everything.  

@Donafello said recently that he knew when buying his wheel that HE  was going to have to be his own service department. I partly agree with that. Even with support from your retail seller, how many of us actually live within an easy car drive to obtain service or repair work, warrantee or otherwise?  I was in Provence when I bought my wheel from Germany. Now I'm even further away in Spain.  Even shipping it back is impractical and expensive; €40 round trip.  I can fly back home to London and return  for that (on a good deal).  When my beeper died, electro-sport were happy to send me the part.  It was an easy fix, but I am somewhat handy with tools.  I guess anything more expensive would justify shipping.

 It's a niche business we partake in, and along with that, go certain uncomfortable trade offs.  How many of us would not have bought a wheel knowing what we know now? I still would have, it's just too much fun.

[zlymex]

20 hours ago, Cloud said:

@zlymex or someone else, can you please recommend a particular type of shrink wrap and where to buy it , that i should use either over the wires when i solder them together , or maybe over the wire and the connector as im more likely to use connectors like Xt150?

I would say any nornal heat shrink tube will do.
I've just tested some by putting the tip of my iron set at 250 degree C for 30 seconds for each tube, they seem all withstand it well, no melting.

[zlymex]

On 2016/12/10 at 0:36 AM, Cerbera said:

But if there's room in the case I like those big blue bullet connectors - very nicely isolated, and easy grip removal but very firm seating. Why do you say the EC5's are no good ?

May be I was too conservative and rated 30A continuous at the time I tested. If the EC5(with 0.25mR internal resistance) pass through 100A, it creates 2.5W of heat, which is a lot for the case to bear. Of course that 100A is very hard to reach, at least will not reach constantly. Therefore, for not so intense riding, EC5 is good.

[Cerbera]

Just now, zlymex said:

May be I was too conservative and rated 30A continuous at the time I tested. If the EC5(with 0.25mR internal resistance) pass through 100A, it creates 2.5W of heat, which is a lot for the case to bear. Of course that 100A is very hard to reach, at least will not reach constantly. Therefore, for not so intense riding, EC5 is good.

Thanks for the clarification. I do note that @EUC Extreme uses them, which would suggest they can handle exceptionally rigorous use as well...

6 hours ago, Smoother said:

It's a niche business we partake in, and along with that, go certain uncomfortable trade offs.  How many of us would not have bought a wheel knowing what we know now? I still would have, it's just too much fun.

Yeah, I would have done it anyway too  The odd fall / tech fail is more than made up for by the amount of fun when it is all working well...

[zlymex]

On 2016/12/10 at 0:36 AM, Cerbera said:

As somebody who has a lot of experience with deans connectors, and XT60s, I would recommend them both - these are the preferred sort of connectors for battery packs and power wiring in UAV's - where the connection not coming undone in flight is, if possible, EVEN MORE essential that if your machine is on the ground.

One thing worth noting is that the motor wire carry larger current than battery, because of the downward PWM and those filter capacitors. This especially true for low speed and high torque situations such as steep slope climb for a heavy rider. For instance, if the battery supplies 50A, the motor wire may reach to 100A. If the current doubles, the heat created will be quadrupled. Therefore, the resistance for the motor connector may be a quarter of the battery connector.

[Cloud]

Ok, so following all the advisce from the forum Gurus, i've borrowed a stronger soldering iron from @fearedbliss and  ordered this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331446365735?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301950906438?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

And this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381700128675?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

These should arrive in a week, and i will try soldering the connections. Will let everyone know how it went. Thanks

[US69]

On ‎11‎.‎12‎.‎2016 at 9:04 AM, Marty Backe said:

The problem is that there is no alternative to the Gotway ACM or MSuper V3 if what you want is power and speed. I would like nothing better then to speak with my money and go elsewhere, but there is no elsewhere. Now of course if they were totally unreliable I would have no alternative but to sit on the sidelines and ride weak, slow wheels. But many people (me included) have had no problems with Gotway wheels (I've ridden two separate ACMs for hundreds of miles and a MSuper V3 for hundreds of miles). So I still think you have a fair chance of getting a good one. Lets hope I didn't just jinx myself and break an arm next week 

 

if 40kmh is enough for you, there is the KingSong 18 in it's newest generation!

In it's lastest Version, Kingsong  listend and:

- Put an automatic Fan on the Board, starting when over 55 degree celsius

- Put in 1/3 stronger Mosfets

- puts in thicker wires to the motor

- high power connectors are used now

-new pedals, new board, speech Output, nice app

-etc etc

As i own a KS18 1200W 1360wh myself (not the newest Version- unfortunatly) AND MSuper V3 (self upgraded to 1160wh), i alsohad some wheels before also, i can definitly compare those two qualitywise....

The KS stands out everywhere...the lights are usable and bright,it has BT Music, the driving is a lot smoother and stable, everything is put together very fine!

As i first opened my GW...i really got exhausted by that Silicon hell! The installed lights are a alibi...the Shell material is a complete joke!

Now driving it a Little longer, more and more i see the conceptional faults...Gotway is only doing one Thing: Going for power and fastness, but on a very specific way!

On what costs? When i see the Amperage generated on my (before original) 16s4p Batterie pack....sometimes-no....very often! up to 80-100Amp..i know one Thing defintily:

The batteries on the GW will not last for Long! This is just to much amperage for this Kind of Batterie cell......no wunder they had to upgrade to more Volts

On my KS18 i have never seen such high Amp Ratings, KS seams to stay inside the envelope of the Batterie abilities and develop the Motor Firmware step by step....

 

If i could choose again nowadays between the KS18 and the V3....with the knowledge and experience i have gained from both wheels now....i would definitly buy/choose the KS18!

If the Motor wasn't in the V3? Then from appearence and buildquality it can be mistaken as generic chinese clone.....harsh? But true :-)

[phatmike]

@KingSong69  Is the new KS 18 already out? Do you have a link? Thanks.

[US69]

6 minutes ago, phatmike said:

@KingSong69  Is the new KS 18 already out? Do you have a link? Thanks.

If you think of a "new" KS18 as one which is totally new -with new Shell size-.....no! This is -as far as i know- not even designed and just announced for middle 2017 or so!

 

What i am talking about is just an updated Version of KS18..but greatly improved....i can only provide German links:

http://www.1radwerkstatt.de/epages/80603321.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/80603321/Products/KS18

 

[Cloud]

So, i soldered the new XT150 connectors today , see pics:

They seem to be holding ok so far, but i do believe the connectors are an overkill. It was said here that more than 100amps travel over these wires but i am not sure how its possible over 14 gauge wires. All the info i could find says that 14 gauge can take from 15 to 32 amps only. Also, the wires coming from the control board to the connector are thicker than the wires from the connector point to the motor. The thicker wires are labeled 14 awg and the thinner wires are not labeled. Does this mean they could be even weaker?

at the same time if the amps cannot approach 100amps, how did the wheel in the russian dyno rig test reach the max power of almost 5kw... 

In any case, i am glad the connectors i got are heavy duty, and i appreciate all the help and the info  

[Chriull]

35 minutes ago, Cloud said:

So, i soldered the new XT150 connectors today , see pics:

...

They seem to be holding ok so far, but i do believe the connectors are an overkill.

The soldering of the green wire could be "cold"? Not easily seen on the photo and maybe irrelevant if the soldering inside the connector is ok...

35 minutes ago, Cloud said:

It was said here that more than 100amps travel over these wires but i am not sure how its possible over 14 gauge wires. All the info i could find says that 14 gauge can take from 15 to 32 amps only.

The 15-32A is for installations as a maximum sustainable current with quite some safety margins to prevent burning houses, etc...

100A are for wheels only short peaks. With ~8 Ohm/km (for solid wires, higher for threaded wires) the wire resistance for ~30cm is about 2,4 milli Ohm. By this about 100x0,0024=0,24V drop at the AWG 14 wire with 100A. Makes a dissipated power of 24W - nothing to be sustained for longer periods... there were already reports of molten wire insulations, unsoldered wires, etc...

Quite "unlimited" currents can flow over each wire - just the time the wire survives gets shorter and shorter...

35 minutes ago, Cloud said:

 Also, the wires coming from the control board to the connector are thicker than the wires from the connector point to the motor. The thicker wires are labeled 14 awg and the thinner wires are not labeled. Does this mean they could be even weaker?

Could be. Could be a different thickness of the insulation, too. Threaded wire vs solid?

35 minutes ago, Cloud said:

at the same time if the amps cannot approach 100amps, how did the wheel in the russian dyno rig test reach the max power of almost 5kw... 

They can and do. The wires just get hot.

 

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

Quite "unlimited" currents can flow over each wire - just the time the wire survives gets shorter and shorter...

This is my favourite line.

Ive had some wires flow these "unlimited" currents.  The huge flash and bang, and molten copper flying through the air and getting lodged between my fingers, and the resulting temporary blindness, told me that not even a stop watch Could measure the survival time.

A mechanic friend of mine called any wire that no longer survived the current put through it as "toaster wire" you know, like those little wires in an electric toaster that glow red hot.  Only every other wire is not designed to be toaster wire, so when it become so hot, it ( and here's another favourite quote) " let's the smoke out" as if, inside every wire circuit exists not metal wire, but a stream of smoke, and as long as the circuit remains intact, the smoke stays hidden inside. But if you over cook it, it becomes a toaster wire and you end up letting the smoke out.  

He would use it something like this.  ( energising a new circuit for the first time) " let's hope we don't let the smoke out"

Yeah I know, explaining it takes all the humour out of I. But it only has to be explained once, mostly for our ESL members.

[SuperSport]

7 hours ago, Chriull said:

The soldering of the green wire could be "cold"? Not easily seen on the photo and maybe irrelevant if the soldering inside the connector is ok...

I was thinking the same thing about all three connections.  Looks like the solder iron was not quite hot enough, or not held long enough for the solder to flow properly.  Might just be the photos, or maybe just rough from cleaning up after, but it doesn't look as smooth flowed as it normally should be.

[esaj]

The solder on those connections certainly looks a bit odd, usually it should be shiny and smooth. Too low heat or maybe the wires moved about while the solder was cooling? 

The amperages for the wires are recommendations, like Chriull stated above, the actual resistance of the wire is very small (thus, "conductor") and will "allow" very high (although technically not actually "unlimited") currents to flow. Look at EUC Extreme's charging video where he charges the batteries in 10 minutes with several kilowatts of power... Although he speaks Finnish in those, so most don't probably know that while he holds the cables he says "the cables are getting a bit warm"

[SuperSport]

1 hour ago, esaj said:

the cables are getting a bit warm"

Or "Ouch Dang it!"

[Cloud]

@Chriull @SuperSport @esaj  The pictures above I attached are of the new connections i made yesterday, i soldered them.  These are not the original connectors. I sure hope these will be ok...

[SuperSport]

Yeah, I think we all assumed that was the new connections. And without actually being there and seeing it be done, we are all just guessing. But it does appear those joints are cold soldered, or possibly they got moved before they set up.

You were there when they were done, so you would know better. It's just that the photo looks strange.

[Cloud]

@Chriull @SuperSport @esaj  The pictures above I attached are of the new connections i made yesterday, i soldered them.  These are not the original connectors. I sure hope these will be ok...even though i keep thinking that i should have crimped them instead of soldering. After all, we dont know for sure why the original soldered ones got disconnected..

[Cloud]

5 minutes ago, SuperSport said:

Yeah, I think we all assumed that was the new connections. And without actually being there and seeing it be done, we are all just guessing. But it does appear those joints are cold soldered, or possibly they got moved before they set up.

You were there when they were done, so you would know better. It's just that the photo looks strange.

I was there but im not very good at it so its possible i didnt do it right. Id rather resolder than be sorry later.

should i just heat up the whole assembly with the soldering iron until the flux is liquid and just shuffle the wire around a bit and let it cool?

[Chriull]

23 minutes ago, Cloud said:

I was there but im not very good at it so its possible i didnt do it right. Id rather resolder than be sorry later.

Good idea!

23 minutes ago, Cloud said:

should i just heat up the whole assembly with the soldering iron until the flux is liquid

And put a bit of new flux on it!

23 minutes ago, Cloud said:

and just shuffle the wire around a bit and let it cool?

Don't move the wire while it cools! Or everything starts at point 1....

[Cloud]

11 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Good idea!

And put a bit of new flux on it!

Don't move the wire while it cools! Or everything starts at point 1....

It was very difficult to hold both the wire and the connector still while holding the soldering iron too. And the wire was short too so i had to hold the connector with my feet over the wheel. Things were moving around even when the flux while cooling. I will try to redo in a few days...