A strong suggestion for Msuper V3 owners

[zlymex]

8 hours ago, FreeRide said:

Properly crimped connection is much stronger and less resistance

Stronger? Probably not.
Less resistance? Absolutely not.
I've tested the resistance of crimped connection to be 1.3 milli-Ohm, and became 0.03 milli-Ohm when soldered.

[zlymex]

My strong suggestion is this: get rid of the connectors and solder the wires together.

I have done this for two V3s(including mine) and I'll do more tomorrow for my other friends.
This is because the incident happened to one my friends when we rode together in a golf course, he fried his V3. The reason: the motor connector is overheated and the insulation plastic was melted resulting in the shortage of the two connectors.


His weight is about 90kg and running low battery when climb that not-so-steep slope. Here is the video just before the incident: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg1NzA1Nzc4MA==.html

When I replaced the mainboard for him, I removed the connectors and measure the resistance to be 2.33 mili-Ohm(see previous photo), this will produce 3.7W of power(7.4W for two) at 40A current, enough to melt the poor insulation.

Furthermore, the insulation of the motor wire was also melted, so I peel off the insulation for better heat dissipation.

[US69]

@zlymex Was this 84 Volt Version? I think so, or?

 

Puuuh, i dont like this reports...until now i have had a very good trust in my V3.(67Volt 1160wh)

As i had it open i found the wiring to look at least nice -for a Gotway....but i haven checked the Motor Connection in General!

Was it not a short time ago, that Gotway "proudly" presents a 3in1 Motor connector? In triangular form?

In my V3 there are also these black type connectors like....is it really necessary to get rid of them and solder them? I am not so good in soldering...i would like to avoid that!

 

[zlymex]

14 hours ago, Cloud said:

My new Msuper V3s gave out under me a few days ago. Thank god i was going slow , jumped off and didnt get hurt. After that the wheel would turn on but didnt balance.

To my great surprise, when i opened the side cover i discovered that 2 out of 3 wires going to the motor were disconnected. There is a type of a bullet wire connector ( 1 per each wire)  in between the control board and the motor. The ends of the wire are soldered to the connector on both sides of it. The wires disconnected at the spot where they are supposed to be soldered. The connector itself stayed closed. ( see picture) . To me this was mind blowing as the motor wires virtually dont move around inside at all and there is nothing pulling on them. Besides, how could 2 wires break the connection? As soon as the first wire would, the wheel would stop, the only conclusion i can come to is that the soldering was poorly done or not soldered at all and the wires simply held together in contact thru friction for the first 200km that the wheel worked. Other owners could have the same condition ( withh poor or no soldering at connector - a time bomb waiting to explode)

This is a very dangerous condition and can cost someone a serious injury. What i am planning to do ( and suggest others do too) is to replace all 3 connectors with similar bullet connectors ( purchased online or at automotive stores) rated for 14 gauge or thicker wires. I failed to re-solder the wire to the connector, as its not so easy, one needs a special soldering iron and its tough to get inside the cilyndrical connector, as it is small, so i suggest replacing with bullet connectors one can crimp the wire in as opposed to soldering.

the wires going to the motor are labeled 14 awg ( at least for msuper v3s 1600wh 84v). Below are some similar bullet connectors found on ebay ( rated for 14-16 awg and 10-12 awg)

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/112029374430?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/112037734486?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

1. When I opened the fried V3 of my friend, one solder point come to disconnect at my very slight touch. This indicate that it was not properly soldered.

2. the wires on the board side of two EUCs I opened are not soldered but crimped to the connector, giving much more resistance.

3. IMHO, those connectors on ebay link are not good for this purpose because it is only rated as 24A maximum.

[zlymex]

22 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

@zlymex Was this 84 Volt Version? I think so, or?

 

Puuuh, i dont like this reports...until now i have had a very good trust in my V3.(67Volt 1160wh)

As i had it open i found the wiring to look at least nice -for a Gotway....but i haven checked the Motor Connection in General!

Was it not a short time ago, that Gotway "proudly" presents a 3in1 Motor connector? In triangular form?

In my V3 there are also these black type connectors like....is it really necessary to get rid of them and solder them? I am not so good in soldering...i would like to avoid that!

 

This is the 67.2V version as indicated by the label "Msuper 3/3s". However, It is exactly the same for 84V version.

That triangular form connector is worse, and very short lived.

I strongly suggest that every V3 owner get rid of the connector and solder the wires directly, because of the poor crimped connection, because of the might be poor soldering, and because of the 1mR resistance of the connector.

Edit: before the soldering, find a piece of thin wire and wrap around both end to be soldered, apply flux and use at least 30W soldering iron. After the soldering, use the original fiber-glass insulation tube to insulate.

[US69]

39 minutes ago, zlymex said:

When i see this photos and hear this all....i got a bit upset!!! What the $%&/....

 

 

So i should just solder them together like on your photo? Not use any Kind of connector would be your advice??? Are not -for example- the xt60 connectors good for high amperage and i could use them? Or is there probalbly also high resistance?

 Sorry if my questions are silly....from this practical electrical things i got no clue...and my soldering abilityies...haha..are not that great :-(

[zlymex]

6 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

So i should just solder them together like on your photo? Not use any Kind of connector would be your advice??? Are not -for example- the xt60 connectors good for high amperage and i could use them? Or is there probalbly also high resistance?

 Sorry if my questions are silly....from this practical electrical things i got no clue...and my soldering abilityies...haha..are not that great :-(

Yes. 
XT60 is better, Gotway use that for battery. However, because of the down-PWM, the motor current is much larger than the battery current. Gotway limit the motor current to be 120A, I actually achieve that in one of my test, and 80A to 100A is quite normal, any kind of connector is good for that except very strong ones?
Top left is XT60, 0.3mR, safe for 25A continious
Top right is the one used by KAABO
Bottom left is the Amass EC5, not good either
Bottom right is very good, but huge and expensive.
There is one not on the photo, XT90, 0.25mR, not good.
There is another one XT150, or Amass 6mm, similar to those used by EUC Extreme, 0.09mR, this is good.

Even if you use connectors, you have to solder both ends.
I've updated the last post for how to solder.

[US69]

@zlymex

One last silly question :-)

Is it also ok, to drill the both Ends together? Drilling them together, do a thin wire around and then solder them together?

Just for getting them some more mechanical hold........

 

Ok, i will definitly do that solder Job! All that gives me just a bit more secure from a cut out is a good Thing!!!

 

 

[zlymex]

4 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Is it also ok, to drill the both Ends together? Drilling them together, do a thin wire around and then solder them together?

Just for getting them some more mechanical hold........

I don't quite follow, drilling where? Those wires are 14AWG, which means 2.1 square milli-meters section area, and barely hold the current necessary for heavy rider climbing hills. Thinner wire is not good.

[US69]

12 minutes ago, zlymex said:

I don't quite follow, drilling where? Those wires are 14AWG, which means 2.1 square milli-meters section area, and barely hold the current necessary for heavy rider climbing hills. Thinner wire is not good.

Ok, Sorry, i think thats just my poor english to explain.....i mean "twisting"-"Spinning" the 2 wires-the both Ends- together...to give them more mechanical hold.

And then -before soldering-also Spinning a wire around then, just like you give as advice

But whatever: I will just do like you mentioned in you post/photo!

Thanx a lot for your advice/help!

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, zlymex said:

Yes. 
XT60 is better, Gotway use that for battery. However, because of the down-PWM, the motor current is much larger than the battery current. Gotway limit the motor current to be 120A, I actually achieve that in one of my test, and 80A to 100A is quite normal, any kind of connector is good for that except very strong ones?
Top left is XT60, 0.3mR, safe for 25A continious
Top right is the one used by KAABO
Bottom left is the Amass EC5, not good either
Bottom right is very good, but huge and expensive.
There is one not on the photo, XT90, 0.25mR, not good.
There is another one XT150, or Amass 6mm, similar to those used by EUC Extreme, 0.09mR, this is good.

Even if you use connectors, you have to solder both ends.
I've updated the last post for how to solder.

As somebody who has a lot of experience with deans connectors, and XT60s, I would recommend them both - these are the preferred sort of connectors for battery packs and power wiring in UAV's - where the connection not coming undone in flight is, if possible, EVEN MORE essential that if your machine is on the ground.

The drawback of Deans for flying machines is that they are stupid hard to get apart, but that of course a good thing in the case of EUCs. But beware of cheap imitations of Deans connectors - they melt at worryingly low temperatures, and deform when you solder them. 

But if there's room in the case I like those big blue bullet connectors - very nicely isolated, and easy grip removal but very firm seating. Why do you say the EC5's are no good ?

[yourtoys7]

As much as I absolutely love EUC this type workman shift is horrible and unacceptable, Im starting to look at different type of scooter due cut out issues. I fell once and dont wont to do again. Gotway charging good money for their products, please change your practice or you will loose customers (its just a matter of time).

[Scully]

Thanks for the heads up, I'm not loving the idea of messing with it - might cause issues with the warranty.
 

[US69]

when i think about what Amperages Gotway is pushing here...i also get some other thoughts...

If they really need 120 Amps to get the wheel going ...they really should have invest some more into batteries!

For an 820wh version with 16s4p=4 paralell rows....means each set has to handle 30Amps.

for the type of batterie(10amp continuous) which is used...that is definitely to much.

they should have at least implemented the samsung 30q(official 15 Amps...capable of 20)...better the LG HG2(continious 20 amp rating)....

the used batteries in our v3(sanyo or pana 3500mah) are really not meant to be pushed such high....i really know that of Vaping!

 

Even for the bigger v3 versions with 8p(1640/67v) or 6p(1600/84v) an amperage of 120 Amps is on the razorblade for the now used batterie type....yeah ...you could argument that the 10A rating is conttinuous...but believe me...THIS batterie is not good for 20-30Amps on one pack...even not for a short moment....

thats also why we see such an enormous sag when pushing the wheel.....

[FreeRide]

7 hours ago, zlymex said:

Stronger? Probably not.
Less resistance? Absolutely not.
I've tested the resistance of crimped connection to be 1.3 milli-Ohm, and became 0.03 milli-Ohm when soldered.
 

Absolutely true on both.  You need a good crimper, the right connector, and correct technique.  Only crimped connectors are allowed on critical equipment where safety is involved or the highest performance is required, such as aircraft.  

[FreeRide]

I think you guys might be moving in the wrong direction.  If the wires are over heating and melting the insulators (and/or solder) you need to be looking at moving to 12ga wire for the entire harness.  You may end up burning a motor though if they are being pushed out of spec.  Looks like they need to look at this again in the lab.  Do all the other wheels use 14ga wire?

[Cloud]

@zlymex

i appreciate all the info. 

This whole thing kinda gets scarier by the minute and tuning into a project.,I have a few questions: 

1. You are suggesting soldering the wires together which makes sense, but how then to replace the tube or tire? The wheel would need to be removed and soldering done again after tube replaced. I dont think having a removable good quality connector would be a problem, as i dont see how the connector could ever come apart from vibration. Nothing should be pulling on these wires inside the wheel.

2. I understand the concern with the high amperage. Perhps the connectors i bought are not rated to withstand the amps, i need a different type, but is the wire itself rated for the amp? 14 guage shouldnt be able to transmit 100a? 

3. You mentioned the gotway connectors were crimped and not soldered..i could be wrong but mine that broke appear to hav been soldered at least on the motor side

4. So which type of connector is best to use? XT150? They appear to be 6 mm, wouldnt that be too large for the 14 awg wire? Is the wire to be crimped or welded to this connector?

5. Insukation on gotway wires says 200C.  This should be sufficient to not melt right? Not sure what plastic / shrink wrap over the connector is rated for.

6. Does it matter what kind of flux to use? Mine just doesnt stick to this thick wire. I do have to get a stronger soldering iron though....

thanks!

[RideTheGlide]

Yikes! That is completely unacceptable. Very glad that you were riding slow and were not hurt when this happened to you. Falling off a wheel at any kind of speed is not fun. We will from now on being checking all internal connections in the Gotways when we install the batteries before we ship them out to our customers.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience, stay safe.

[zlymex]

36 minutes ago, Cloud said:

@zlymex

i appreciate all the info. 

This whole thing kinda gets scarier by the minute and tuning into a project.,I have a few questions: 

1. You are suggesting soldering the wires together which makes sense, but how then to replace the tube or tire? The wheel would need to be removed and soldering done again after tube replaced. I dont think having a removable good quality connector would be a problem, as i dont see how the connector could ever come apart from vibration. Nothing should be pulling on these wires inside the wheel.

2. I understand the concern with the high amperage. Perhps the connectors i bought are not rated to withstand the amps, i need a different type, but is the wire itself rated for the amp? 14 guage shouldnt be able to transmit 100a? 

3. You mentioned the gotway connectors were crimped and soldered..i could be wrong but mine that broke appear to hav been soldered. Unless i am missing something and there is a piece inside thats crimped. 

4. So which type of connector is best to use? XT150?

5. Insukation on gotway wires says 200C.  This should be sufficient to not melt right? Not sure what plastic / shrink wrap over the connector is rated for.

6. Does it matter what kind of flux to use? Mine just doesnt stick to this thick wire. I do have to get a stronger soldering iron though....

thanks!

1. I've just replace the tire and tube after the soldering of those wires. Just open the left side cover(with the battery pack) and let it flip over, the entire motor/tire will be exposed. No touching of the right side at all where those soldering happened.

2. The wire of 14AWG is Ok for 100A, but will be in a very high temperature. The insulation on the motor side is Teflon, and silicone on the board side, which are all withstand 200 degree C or more. If you've ever opened an 195A rated MOSFET(the one used by Gotway in old V3) to see how thin the wire inside, you will know how large the 14AWG will carry.

3. It is soldered on the broke side, but mine are crimped on the board side. The crimped connection can only be seen by destroying the silicone insulation.

4. XT150 is good, I think EUC EXTREME use it. As can be seen from the handwritting that the resistance is 0.09mR.

5. Yes, and Teflon rated more. Shrink wrap rated less but I do not know the exact temperature. Plastic used by Gotway rated the lowest.

6. Any flux will do as copper is easy to solder, Just make sure the soldering temperature should be higher than normal because thick wire dissipate heat a lot when soldering.

[Cloud]

Thank you @zlymex 

Its great that the tire can be changed without resoldering. Not sure if the CB changing should be factored in or not.

the xt150 - is the wire to be soldered to it? Or soldered and crimped? The connector seems to be 6mm.  Isnt that too large for the 14 gauge wire? Maybe doesnt matter for soldering?

thanks!

[zlymex]

14 minutes ago, Cloud said:

Thank you @zlymex 

Its great that the tire can be changed without resoldering. Not sure if the CB changing should be factored in or not.

the xt150 - is the wire to be soldered to it? Or soldered and crimped? The connector seems to be 6mm.  Isnt that too large for the 14 gauge wire? Maybe doesnt matter for soldering?

thanks!

Solder only for those connectors. It is 6mm for XT150, need some skill to solder which IMO harder than wire soldering directly.

[Cloud]

2 minutes ago, zlymex said:

Solder only for those connectors. It is 6mm for XT150, need some skill to solder which IMO harder than wire soldering directly.

Thank you.

Are they to be soldered when the metal part of connector is inside the plastic cover? Or solder to the metal and then slip cover over? any other connectors i could crimo and solder just in case?

sorry for so many questions.

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I don't want to bash Gotway as they have some leading edge products out there, but they really need to step up their game in terms of safety.  These connectors and components need to be properly rated, over-engineered, assembled and inspected better as riding on one wheel is quite hazardous as it is.  We don't need injury causing accidents due to equipment failure.  

If temperatures are getting high enough to possibly melt solder/connectors/etc or weaken them (solder melts at about 190 C I read), they need to incorporate better components to reduce the points of failure.  One can't simply coast to a safe stop on an EUC when it breaks down.  Imagine riding in traffic at 35 kph, and suddenly the wheel cuts out while you're approaching a red light where there is cross traffic or picture going down a steep hill next to a deep gorge somewhere... We need aircraft level safety standards where failure isn't an option.  Connectors need to be able to withstand high temperatures and stay functioning through vibration and crashes.

I think the smart thing would be to consult @EUC Extreme to see what he uses and go with that as I don't think anyone stress tests their wheels as much as him.  Why don't they just have a waterproof, anchored connector port on the controller board and just have extra long motor wires that connect and lock directly to that port?  That would get rid of the extra connector and reduce one point of possible failure?

[zlymex]

3 hours ago, FreeRide said:

Absolutely true on both.  You need a good crimper, the right connector, and correct technique.  Only crimped connectors are allowed on critical equipment where safety is involved or the highest performance is required, such as aircraft.  

It is true that crimped connection is more reliable, because it can be done automatically in a production line. However, when comes to the EUC situations where amps is very large and need small resistance, soldering is much better.

[zlymex]

4 minutes ago, Cloud said:

Thank you.

Are they to be soldered when the metal part of connector is inside the plastic cover? Or solder to the metal and then slip cover over? any other connectors i could crimo and solder just in case?

sorry for so many questions.

 

Solder to the meta firstl and then slip cover over. All the connectors I bought need soldering.

3 hours ago, FreeRide said:

I think you guys might be moving in the wrong direction.  If the wires are over heating and melting the insulators (and/or solder) you need to be looking at moving to 12ga wire for the entire harness.  You may end up burning a motor though if they are being pushed out of spec.  Looks like they need to look at this again in the lab.  Do all the other wheels use 14ga wire?

The wires are overheating and melting the insulators, just because the connector and crimped connection. Sure 12ga is better but no one can do it except EUC Extreme. All the other wheels use 14ga wire or less.