A strong suggestion for Msuper V3 owners

[Cloud]

My new Msuper V3s gave out under me a few days ago. Thank god i was going slow , jumped off and didnt get hurt. After that the wheel would turn on but didnt balance.

To my great surprise, when i opened the side cover i discovered that 2 out of 3 wires going to the motor were disconnected. There is a type of a bullet wire connector ( 1 per each wire)  in between the control board and the motor. The ends of the wire are soldered to the connector on both sides of it. The wires disconnected at the spot where they are supposed to be soldered. The connector itself stayed closed. ( see picture) . To me this was mind blowing as the motor wires virtually dont move around inside at all and there is nothing pulling on them. Besides, how could 2 wires break the connection? As soon as the first wire would, the wheel would stop, the only conclusion i can come to is that the soldering was poorly done or not soldered at all and the wires simply held together in contact thru friction for the first 200km that the wheel worked. Other owners could have the same condition ( withh poor or no soldering at connector - a time bomb waiting to explode)

This is a very dangerous condition and can cost someone a serious injury. What i am planning to do ( and suggest others do too) is to replace all 3 connectors with similar bullet connectors ( purchased online or at automotive stores) rated for 14 gauge or thicker wires. I failed to re-solder the wire to the connector, as its not so easy, one needs a special soldering iron and its tough to get inside the cilyndrical connector, as it is small, so i suggest replacing with bullet connectors one can crimp the wire in as opposed to soldering.

the wires going to the motor are labeled 14 awg ( at least for msuper v3s 1600wh 84v). Below are some similar bullet connectors found on ebay ( rated for 14-16 awg and 10-12 awg)

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/112029374430?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/112037734486?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

[FreeRide]

Whoo!  that's crazy.  That would not pass any serous electrical standard without properly crimped connectors.  Really good thing it happened when you were going slow.  Was anything shifted in the unit to put stress on the wires and cause the solder joints to break?

 

[Cloud]

3 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

Whoo!  that's crazy.  That would not pass any serous electrical standard without properly crimped connectors.  Really good thing it happened when you were going slow.  Was anything shifted in the unit to put stress on the wires and cause the solder joints to break?

 

Nothing was shifted in the unit - there is basically nothing that could shift. All 3  wires were neatly sitting next to the CB behind a plastic divider between the CB and the battery compartment. There is not way these wires would be pulled on, this means the soldering points were holding by a thread if anything. 

[FreeRide]

I'm sure you will be opening the remaining wire, a few pictures of that might be interesting, if you are able to slice open than insulation carefully and see how that one is holding together. 

[Cloud]

5 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

I'm sure you will be opening the remaining wire, a few pictures of that might be interesting, if you are able to slice open than insulation carefully and see how that one is holding together. 

The remaining 3rd wire is still holding when i gently pull on it. The other side of both disconnected wires seems to be holding too but i didnt pull on that that hard. I can definitely take pics to show how they are connected

[Cerbera]

Thanks for the heads-up. Let's hope your connection fail was the result of a one-off lapse in concentration by whoever was wiring motors that day. If you look at Ian from SpeedyFeet's control board replacement video, his motor wires seem rock solid, so at least we know it's not all of them !

Dammit - I only just put a load of bumper strip all over mine covering all the screw holes.

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Cloud said:

The remaining 3rd wire is still holding when i gently pull on it. The other side of both disconnected wires seems to be holding too but i didnt pull on that that hard. I can definitely take pics to show how they are connected

Glad your OK! I don't own an Msuper V3 but what happened to you could easily happen to any of us! Let's face it we are all test pilots for the entire EUC industry! If you become injured  there are extremely limited legal avenues for filing a malpractice suit in a foreign country!

Regarding the bullet connectors, are you able to slide shrink wrap over the entire connector and portion of the wire?  Both the bullet connector and crimp are termed soft connections and can easily come apart! After building 2 helicopters that endured substantial ranges of vibratory frequencies throughout hours of rotor balancing I have seen bullet and especially crimp connectors disconnect! Be safe man!

[Cloud]

13 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Glad your OK! I don't own an Msuper V3 but what happened to you could easily happen to any of us! Let's face it we are all test pilots for the entire EUC industry! If you become injured  there are extremely limited legal avenues for filing a malpractice suit in a foreign country!

Regarding the bullet connectors, are you able to slide shrink wrap over the entire connector and portion of the wire?  Both the bullet connector and crimp are termed soft connections and can easily come apart! After building 2 helicopters that endured substantial ranges of vibratory frequencies throughout hours of rotor balancing I have seen bullet and especially crimp connectors disconnect! Be safe man!

Yes in the connectors i am planning to use the shrink wrap will cover the exposed wire. In the original gotway connector the wire/soldering point was also covered. Woukd you say that the crimped connection is weaker than soldered? Should i have someone solder it instead?

[Cloud]

45 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Thanks for the heads-up. Let's hope your connection fail was the result of a one-off lapse in concentration by whoever was wiring motors that day. If you look at Ian from SpeedyFeet's control board replacement video, his motor wires seem rock solid, so at least we know it's not all of them !

Dammit - I only just put a load of bumper strip all over mine covering all the screw holes.

I hope so too, but by the same token, its hard to solder inside that connector and its quite possible there are other defficient connections out there. I hope this was the only time, but how many wheels/ connections did that guy solder that day? If i were you id remove those bumper strip and check inside. Besides its good practive to open your wheel at least once to  check if everything looks ok inside. I had found / avoided quite a few problems in the past by knowing whats inside.

 

[Cerbera]

Just now, Cloud said:

I hope so too, but by the same token, its hard to solder inside that connector and its quite possible that this could happen again. I hope this was the only time, but how many wheels/ connections did that guy solder that day? If i were you id remove those bumper strip and check inside. Besides its a good practice to open your wheel at least once to  check if everything looks ok inside. I had found / avoided quite a few problems in the past by knowing whats inside.

 

That is unquestionably good advice  I can imagine how rubbish I'd feel if the same thing happened to me, and I knew, and could have checked, but didn't...

[Donafello]

I hope and I'm sure you will inform Gotway.  It cool at all that something like that slipped through QC. It's unfortunate but that's the price we pay for being part of this hobby.  And these are $2,000 units were talking about. Sheesh. I'm going to deff check my 1640wh on saturday

[Cloud]

Ive informed gotway

[FreeRide]

A proper crimp should never come apart.  If a proper connector sized and designed for the right type of wire (strand vs. solid) is used with a proper crimp tool and proper technique, they are not going to separate (wire from connector) unless the wire breaks. 

It's posible that you may have another over heating problem, because if the wire was not attached solidly you would have had poor performance as the resistance in the wire would have dropped the voltage to the wheel or simple burned up very quickly.  It seems to me you may have had excessive heating of the wires due to excessive current and that may have melted the solder (solder connections though should never have been used).

[FreeRide]

1 hour ago, Cloud said:

... Woukd you say that the crimped connection is weaker than soldered? ...

Absolutely not.  Properly crimped connection is much stronger and less resistance.  In a properly crimped connection the force and heat generated by the crimp actually fuses the wire and the connector together like a weld.   Check it out. 

[Cloud]

8 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

A proper crimp should never come apart.  If a proper connector sized and designed for the right type of wire (strand vs. solid) is used with a proper crimp tool and proper technique, they are not going to separate (wire from connector) unless the wire breaks. 

It's posible that you may have another over heating problem, because if the wire was not attached solidly you would have had poor performance as the resistance in the wire would have dropped the voltage to the wheel or simple burned up very quickly.  It seems to me you may have had excessive heating of the wires due to excessive current and that may have melted the solder (solder connections though should never have been used).

hmmm, i woukd think that soldering connection should not deteriorate from overheating? I didnt push the wheel to the limit, and while i am 100kg, i never rode about 30kmh on it. I wss actually thinking the opposite, that maybe if the connection was poor, then the change in temperature ( from heat to cold, since its cold outside) could have made the metal more brittle and deteriore the already compromised connection? I guess hight temperature could have done the same for that matter...

yes i also think that ci moed connection wouldnt have failed. In any case even if the wires were to be pulled, if sokdering/ crimping done priperly, the connector should come apart first before the wire attachment to the connection will fail.

[Cloud]

9 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

Absolutely not.  Properly crimped connection is much stronger and less resistance.  In a properly crimped connection the force and heat generated by the crimp actually fuses the wire and the connector together like a weld.   Check it out. 

Cool. So im going in the right direction with the crimped connections. Bought the connectors on ebay today and waiting for them to arrive

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I'm no connectorologist, but I wonder if the Gotway worker didn't properly heat up the metal when they were soldering or perhaps there was some sort of residue interfering with the bond.  I don't know what connectors you have, but with some computer connectors you usually solder to the pins, crimp over little retaining arms over the wires, and then push them into the plastic housing where the little side wings on the pin clip them in.

If your Gotway ones use similar pins and housings you would have to get the metal pin out before being able to reconnect it most likely if they are removable.  Some require special tools.  I once made a custom tool to remove power pins from PC power supply connectors.  Maybe a connector that is soldered and crimped would be the best of both worlds with chemical and mechanical retention.

Even on the control board, maybe having physical locking points to avoid wrie dislodgement would be more reassuring just in case temperatures get so hot that the solder melts.

[Cloud]

13 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I'm no connectorologist, but I wonder if the Gotway worker didn't properly heat up the metal when they were soldering or perhaps there was some sort of residue interfering with the bond.  I don't know what connectors you have, but with some computer connectors you usually solder to the pins, crimp over little retaining arms over the wires, and then push them into the plastic housing where the little side wings on the pin clip them in.

If your Gotway ones use similar pins and housings you would have to get the metal pin out before being able to reconnect it most likely if they are removeable.  Some require special tools.  I once made a custom tool to remove power pins from PC power supply connectors.  Maybe a connector that is soldered and crimped would be the best of both worlds with chemical and mechanical retention.

Even on the control board, maybe having physical locking points to avoid wrie dislodgement would be more reassuring just in case temperatures get so hot that the solder melts.

If would be great to both crimp and solder but i dont think the connectors im planning to get will allow that. Besides i cant get the metal to stick to the wire using my regular soldering iron. Gotway uses connectors you can solder to but not crimp. It doesnt look like you can easily take the metail piece out, solder and then put plastic over, but perhaps it is possible with a special tool.

below are a couple of pics of the gotways connector with the blue wire soldered and holding.

There are connectors on the CB that gotway may be soldering themselves, and tons of other so,dered connections ( connectors between batteries and between batteries and CB, but i believe those came to gotway with the wires already soldered.  The motor connectors may virtually be the only ones gotways solders themselves ( besides the electronics on the CB) and if they have to solder inside the plastic cylinder, its a tough spot to get to and i feel this may be the potentially compromised location for this reason

 

[nomad]

There is no excuse, we are talking a 40 km/h vehicle that will drop the rider if it malfunctions! Even a secondary redundant backup CB won't save you if motor wires come loose, pedals break off or the wheel axle cracks... Talking to you Gotway and Kingsong!!!

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Those Gotway connectors appear to be non-serviceable so they likely insert permanently into their housings.  @esaj did some nice connector work with his battery packs.  Maybe he can recommend something.  I did find these:

http://www.andersonpower.com/us/en/products/sb-sb-boots/sb-50.aspx

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/crimp-solder.htm

 

 

 

[jer]

I would use a micro blow torch for that soldering. Also  would need to make some kind of jig to support the connector in  whilst doing it, plus a bit of fire blanket, plus a few spare connectors to practice.  You can get triple  XT60 connectors which should do the trick.  That's my first thoughts on doing this. 

Gotway should comment as to whether or not  this is potentially systemic or  a very rare occurrence.

Jer

[Smoother]

6 hours ago, Cloud said:

one can crimp the wire in as opposed to soldering.

DIY crimping is NEVER. Better than soldering, especially in these small wire gauges.  Crimps are just two metal surfaces pushed tightly together, at best. But corrosion can slowly build up on one or both of the surfaces and break or severely reduce the contact area, or the crimped pieces can work apart over time, or both. If your life is at stake, solder, or crimp and solder, NEVER just crimp.  How do I know? Firstly its the advice of every good mechanic I've ever known, and my own personal experience of years flying Paramotors, in a large paramotor community.  A 9,000 rpm, one cylinder engine, keeping you in the air, is only one bad connection away from becoming a sky anchor.  Oh yeah, I'm also an electrician ( certified)

if you want to install a time bomb in your EUC , crimp away.

heres a thought. Get a stanly knife, strip back that plastic, clean the wires, prepare some shrink wrap, and solder them together.  From what I think you said, that's not a connector that's designed to pull apart, right?

[esaj]

6 hours ago, Cloud said:

I hope so too, but by the same token, its hard to solder inside that connector and its quite possible there are other defficient connections out there. I hope this was the only time, but how many wheels/ connections did that guy solder that day? If i were you id remove those bumper strip and check inside. Besides its good practive to open your wheel at least once to  check if everything looks ok inside. I had found / avoided quite a few problems in the past by knowing whats inside.

 

Pace has a good video on how to properly solder cup terminals (like the ones in many bullets, XT60's and MT60's):

 

Although I don't follow their procedure to the letter (I usually also heat from inside the connector with a suitable tip).

 

3 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I'm no connectorologist, but I wonder if the Gotway worker didn't properly heat up the metal when they were soldering or perhaps there was some sort of residue interfering with the bond.  I don't know what connectors you have, but with some computer connectors you usually solder to the pins, crimp over little retaining arms over the wires, and then push them into the plastic housing where the little side wings on the pin clip them in.

If your Gotway ones use similar pins and housings you would have to get the metal pin out before being able to reconnect it most likely if they are removable.  Some require special tools.  I once made a custom tool to remove power pins from PC power supply connectors.  Maybe a connector that is soldered and crimped would be the best of both worlds with chemical and mechanical retention.

Even on the control board, maybe having physical locking points to avoid wrie dislodgement would be more reassuring just in case temperatures get so hot that the solder melts.

For small connectors (like DuPont, KF2510's and such), I usually first crimp them and then solder the remaining part of the wire to the connector... maybe overkill since most of my devices are never moved around a lot   As for the solder melting, most non-lead-free soldering tins require >180 degrees Celsius to melt (>355 Fahrenheit), and lead-free -mixtures need something like 220-240 (430-460 Fahrenheit), so the connector would need to become VERY hot. That said, if the connection is constantly heating and cooling, I guess it could wear the connection over time, even if it doesn't move otherwise

 

2 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Those Gotway connectors appear to be non-serviceable so they likely insert permanently into their housings.  @esaj did some nice connector work with his battery packs.  Maybe he can recommend something.  I did find these:

http://www.andersonpower.com/us/en/products/sb-sb-boots/sb-50.aspx

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/crimp-solder.htm

I think the "single wire"-Anderson Powerpoles I've used are available up to 75A. EC5 also should be good up to 120A. I've also used Deans (T-connectors), XT60's, MT60's, EC5's and EC3's in the past for heavier amperage:

 

 

 

Get at least one spare, and keep both ends of the connectors on during soldering (well, for EC3's and EC5's the bullets that go inside the plastic housing can be separate) to prevent the heating from melting the plastic. Takes a bit of practice but really isn't that hard.

 

.

[Rehab1]

7 hours ago, Cloud said:

Yes in the connectors i am planning to use the shrink wrap will cover the exposed wire. In the original gotway connector the wire/soldering point was also covered. Woukd you say that the crimped connection is weaker than soldered? Should i have someone solder it instead?

Sorry for the late reply. I just wke up.

Yes a solid connection is always superior to a soft one! My concern is the tight working area where the wires are located. If you believe the area is to confined to use a scolding gun I would think it would be equally as difficult to use a crimping tool. If do crimp using bullet connectors pull firmly on the wires first to make sure the connect is secure before heating the shrink wrap.

I use this tool regularly to both solder the connection and apply adequate heat for the shrink wrap. It is small enough to fit into tight repair areas. There are other less expensive versions out there as well. Good luck!

https://www.amazon.com/Zico-Zi-2130-Pen-Type-Powered-Soldering/dp/B00M658GDU/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1481278257&sr=8-6&keywords=Solder+gun+gas

[Smoother]

I'm off to YouTube now to watch the whole " basic soldering lesson " series.  Not as gripping as Breaking Bad, but I know I'll learn something.