Inmotion (with higher pedals) less stable?

[John Eucist]

While I appreciate the higher pedals for maneuverability (sharper lean angles) at lower speeds, on both my V8 and V5D (same thing as V5F) I feel less stable on it while going straight at higher speeds compared with my KS14C and KS16.  This makes me compensate by going a bit slower than I would on my King Songs.  Does anyone else feel this way?

EDIT: Also does anyone NOT feel this way?

[houseofjob]

The InMotion wheels naturally want to turn, so I would recommend always favoring one side, even when going straight.

[John Eucist]

2 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

The InMotion wheels naturally want to turn, so I would recommend always favoring one side, even when going straight.

What do you mean by "favoring one side"?

[Tilmann]

I don't feel any significant difference in stability when riding at 30km/h between V8, KS16 and ACM (w/ large pedals). Judging by the level of "dullness" of the shiny V8 side covers, I seem to maintain firm leg contact with the shell, especially on the right side ("strong leg"). Maybe that's the secret behind @houseofjob's suggestion?

[houseofjob]

I don't know if it's due to my ski background, but in skiing, going straight is often always in preparation to turn (ie. constant turning), with your weight balance favoring the outer inner leg initiating the turn (weight more on the right left leg for initiating left turns, and vice-versa).

Riding this way on both my V5 & V8, I never experience wobbles or instability. IMHO pedal height is not the factor here, it's the wheel's distinct turning-style drive/feel. 

 

edit: after writing this & riding, I realized that, on an EUC, it's the reverse of skiing: weight is favored over the inner leg of the turn, as corrected above.

 

FYI - @Pagsy mentioned a similar wobble/instability when he first got his V5. Maybe he can chime in here.

[Paddylaz]

Didn't notice any difference after a while (few hours), but I suppose at first it felt a little odd. Have you played around with the pedal tilt? Most are happy with -3 but it might be different for your unit. The 'wrong' setting can give a sensation that feels a lot like (to me anyway) tilt back and/or instability.

[abinder3]

I for one, wish that Inmotion offered different sizes of 'pedals' for the V8.  To me, it only makes sense that the lower the pedal is to the ground, the lower your center of gravity would be and the more stable the wheel would be.  Also, to me at least, an option to be able to get a lower riding pedal would make it easier for someone learning to ride.

Also, I'd like to see larger pedals.  Unless you want to be able to turn extremely sharp, a 'longer' pedal would make riding more 'comfortable' for those of us that don't have the 'typical' asian size feet. (I wear size 10-10.5 shoes and a longer pedal would be nice.)  Also, it seems like a longer pedal would make long distance riding more comfortable on the feet.

 

 

Allen

[Mono]

13 minutes ago, abinder3 said:

Also, I'd like to see larger pedals.

The Inmotion pedals are about 4.5cm longer and 2cm wider than the standard pedal size we had about a year ago. Still too small for you? For how long did you ride them?

[abinder3]

4 minutes ago, Mono said:

The Inmotion pedals are about 4.5cm longer and 2cm wider than the standard pedal size we had about a year ago. Still too small for you? For how long did you ride them?

I've just recently started riding the V8 and was riding a V3pro for about 2 months prior to that.

It just seems that a longer pedal option than what is on the V8 would be more comfortable along with a lower riding height.

 

 

Allen

[Paddylaz]

10 minutes ago, abinder3 said:

I've just recently started riding the V8 and was riding a V3pro for about 2 months prior to that.

It just seems that a longer pedal option than what is on the V8 would be more comfortable along with a lower riding height.

 

 

Allen

The lower (correction:higher) riding height enables sharper turns, and it really works. Im assuming it's intentional

[abinder3]

Just now, Paddylaz said:

The lower riding height enables sharper turns, and it really works. Im assuming it's intentional

Ummmmmmmmmm.............do you mean a higher riding height ????????
(higher would give you more clearance)

Starting out, sharper turns aren't what you're looking for.

 

 

Allen

[Paddylaz]

1 minute ago, abinder3 said:

Ummmmmmmmmm.............do you mean a higher riding height ????????
(higher would give you more clearance)

Starting out, sharper turns aren't what you're looking for.

 

 

Allen

Yeah sorry, long day. HIGHER.

[Keith]

@Paddylaz and I both tried out the V5F+ on the same day (thanks to @Jason McNeil) I felt a wobbling when I first got on it, straight off of my KS-14C which I had ridden to Jason's depot and could also see that same wobbling when Paddy first rode. However for both of us it seemed to only last a minute or two before we were comfortably doing much tighter turns than on my KS-14. Paddy was also getting it up to a good speed given the limits of the size of the car park we were in. I honestly was quite surprised at how the higher peddles really didn't seem to have any negative impact whilst making it a joy to turn tightly on.

Admittedly, neither of us did actually push it to its top speed that day, and Paddy likes it so much he promptly bought one! (I'm still toying with buying the V8 as I'm happy with my KS as a 14"wheel.)

[Mono]

1 hour ago, abinder3 said:

It just seems that a longer pedal option than what is on the V8 would be more comfortable along with a lower riding height.

I find the most serious disadvantage of low pedals not in tight turns, but that they get more easily caught by whatever sticks out of a not completely flat and clean ground. Getting a pedal caught is one of the few causes for multiple tumbles I had. I don't know the precise height of the Inmotion pedals, but I would take 13cm over 11cm any time.

[abinder3]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

I find the most serious disadvantage of low pedals not in tight turns, but that they get more easily caught by whatever sticks out of a not completely flat and clean ground. Getting a pedal caught is one of the few causes for multiple tumbles I had. I don't know the precise height of the Inmotion pedals, but I would take 13cm over 11cm any time.

Sure that makes sense when you are an accomplished rider, but more beginners would be able to learn how to ride with lower and longer pedals. 

 

When you were first learning to ride, were you worried about not being able to turn sharp enough without scraping your pedals ?

(probably not.)

[Mono]

19 hours ago, abinder3 said:

When you were first learning to ride, were you worried about not being able to turn sharp enough without scraping your pedals ?

I was not worried to scrape pedals in sharp turns and I am still not. In fact, I scrape rather shoes than pedals in this case and sharp turns are low speed maneuvers with which I never had an unexpected wheel-throws-me-off experience. 

I would agree that larger pedals are helpful for learning, I don't think though that low pedals help. In my limited experience, fitting the pedals higher doesn't seem to make the wheel any more difficult to ride. As we all learn only once, this is of course very much a guessing game only.

[abinder3]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

I was not worried to scrape pedals in sharp turns and I am still not. In fact, I scrape rather shoes than pedals in this case and sharp turns are low speed maneuvers with which I never had an unexpected wheel-throws-me-off experience. 

I would agree that larger pedals are helpful for learning, I don't think though that low pedals help. In my limited experience, fitting the pedals higher doesn't seem to make the wheel any more difficult to ride. As we all learn only once, this is of course very much a guessing game only.

Not to 'burst your bubble', but anything that has a lower center of gravity will be more stable.

[Bram]

I got my inmotion V8 yesterday. Since it's my first EUC I can't compare it to others, I can however let you know that within an hour of practicing I was able to drive circles continuously and after that I was confident enough to drive around my neighborhood a bit. For sure I'm not a pro yet but so far I'm quite content with the learning curve on this machine (I've seen some other video's where it takes multiple hours to actually stay on the wheel for longer).

 

I do have some issues with wobbling though. Please check out the video below, maybe you can let me know if it's my stance or why this happens. I'm really hoping it's me and not the machine. I thought it might be the tire pressure but I can't check that yet because I don't have the pump for this valve (looking to buy one today) but the tires feels hard enough when I try to push it in.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[US69]

40 minutes ago, Bram said:

I do have some issues with wobbling though. Please check out the video below, maybe you can let me know if it's my stance or why this happens. I'm really hoping it's me and not the machine. I thought it might be the tire pressure but I can't check that yet because I don't have the pump for this valve (looking to buy one today) but the tires feels hard enough when I try to push it in.

Wobbling is a typically starter Problem...especially when you try to ride a bit faster...a lot People suggest a "wheel roundness" Problem then, but in 99% this is not the case!

It is just that your muscles and Feelings are yet not build good enough, so:

 

Dont worry....you will loose it over the time....it will just disapear, but might Need some time!

[Bram]

2 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Wobbling is a typically starter Problem...especially when you try to ride a bit faster...a lot People suggest a "wheel roundness" Problem then, but in 99% this is not the case!

It is just that your muscles and Feelings are yet not build good enough, so:

 

Dont worry....you will loose it over the time....it will just disapear, but might Need some time!

Thanks man! Exactly what I was hoping for (better me than the wheel

[Mono]

19 hours ago, abinder3 said:

Not to 'burst your bubble', but anything that has a lower center of gravity will be more stable.

I am not at all sure. I am sure though that not everything which has a lower center of gravity is easier to control. That's because there is a simple counter example: balancing an inverted pendulum is easier when the center of gravity is higher. Funnily enough, the example is pretty close to how unicycles work. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to suggest that for this reason wheels with higher pedals are invariably easier to control. IMHO the variation in pedal size height we talk about (about 20-30%) doesn't lead to a practically relevant variation of the COG (about 2-3%).

[Paddylaz]

Stability/control discussions aside,

The higher pedal height of the v5f+ etc is most definitely superior. Am yet to encounter any experienced rider (if there are any here, let me know though) who prefer a lower height once they've sampled it.

And that's exactly the way these wheels should be designed.....engineered for what's best ONCE you're good. The learning curve for these machines will always be steep. But so what. That's half the fun, the achievement.

[Mono]

2 minutes ago, Paddylaz said:

Stability/control discussions aside,

The higher pedal height of the v5f+ etc is most definitely superior. Am yet to encounter any experienced rider (if there are any here, let me know though) who prefer a lower height once they've sampled it.

And that's exactly the way these wheels should be designed.....engineered for what's best ONCE you're good. The learning curve for these machines will always be steep. But so what. That's half the fun, the achievement.

Agreed, though the above vid let me indeed wonder whether a well designed wheel (which the V8 apparently is) makes this learning curve much less difficult to climb.

[houseofjob]

FYI made a correction on my post above.

 

On 12/7/2016 at 4:40 PM, abinder3 said:

It just seems that a longer pedal option than what is on the V8 would be more comfortable along with a lower riding height.

Longer pedals, yes, but I respectfully disagree with lower height comment. High pedal height is one of the best attributes of the InMotion wheels: the ability to turn so sharply you can 180 in on a dime without pedal scrape.

Plus, for riding stability, the unit's overall height was elongated (ie. not a perfect circle, but a bulging, oblique one at the top) by the higher scoping casing / handle arch, to counter-balance the rider pedals being higher and appropriately adjust the center of gravity.

 

9 hours ago, Bram said:

maybe you can let me know if it's my stance or why this happens.

Yes, like @KingSong69 is saying, wobbling is a typical beginner problem, but can be compounded by the InMotion ride style.

 

Some general tips (couldn't really tell from the vid exactly how you were riding):

• Leg lock: I had an issue with this when first learning to ride. While you can ride with legs locked, the issue here is you should always be able to limber up and stay loose hips/waist down as well (my issue was that both my legs would tensing and freeze up). EUC riding is about balance; tense and locked legs don't allow you to freely adjust the weight balance relation of your torso to your legs+wheel.

• Foot-to-shin lean / wedge: This is a pretty important fundamental to EUC riding. While in the beginning, many of us squeeze the wheel to death by the ankles, with our legs parallel up against the wheel casing, the better way to ride IMHO is to situate your feet on the pedals slightly away from the EUC case, then lean the shin of whichever side your weight is favoring, up against the shin pad (kind of like a ladder leaning up against a wall). During the ride, as you maneuver and favor each leg, only one shin will be leaning on a pad at a time (almost like your shins are playing catch with the EUC inbetween them), or sometimes, as in the case of going straight, no shin-to-pad leaning at all. This helps in all aspects, esp. first mounting the wheel sans support and one-leg riding / tricks.

 

35 minutes ago, Mono said:

Agreed, though the above vid let me indeed wonder whether a well designed wheel (which the V8 apparently is) makes this learning curve much less difficult to climb.

A key feature of the InMotion wheels that fosters easier learning (brought up to me by @logos122) is the higher situated shin cushions that make it easier to rest on.

As a beginner, the concept of the shins leaning on the pad is a difficult one. This is compounded by shorter 14" wheels or wheels with no padding, as either the shin pad doesn't hit your leg so high and comfortably as other bigger wheels, or the lack of padding is not comfortable. 

[abinder3]

6 hours ago, Mono said:

I am not at all sure. I am sure though that not everything which has a lower center of gravity is easier to control. That's because there is a simple counter example: balancing an inverted pendulum is easier when the center of gravity is higher. Funnily enough, the example is pretty close to how unicycles work. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to suggest that for this reason wheels with higher pedals are invariably easier to control. IMHO the variation in pedal size we talk about (about 20-30%) doesn't lead to a practically relevant variation of the COG (about 2-3%).

I didn't say anything about pedal size affecting the center of gravity.  I said have an option for a lower pedal to make it easier to learn on.