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KS14C Tilt Forward in rain


codersarepeople

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Final word all: I met with a friend who had ridden it before and he told me it's all in my head; I guess the PTSD from the crash is getting me worried.  Some vicious grip tape arrived in the mail today, so tomorrow I'll add it to the pedals and hopefully feel safer!

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Yeah! Well it may all be in your head, pal, but it's definitely in my feet, I think ?  I'm still going to calibrate with a 1 or2 Deg. Back lean, and go run that rocky road again. 

And hey, if you feel your feet are leaning forward at an angle you don't like, whose to tell you otherwise?

Make it right for you.  That's the message I get from this board.  I've already got an idea for my ankle contact problem, stay tuned.

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14 hours ago, Smoother said:

All this tilt forward talk.  today I rode a very rough path and it really felt like my feet were tilted forward from horizontal. Speed varied form v. Slow to about 12kmh.  Any faster and the constant pounding was vibrating my feet forward off the pedals, because of the constant forward lean.  And no, this didn't result in the forward lean, otherwise I'd be going faster and faster, and we all know where that leads.. FP.

I'm beginning to suspect there is an element of "drift" when it comes to "level calibration". Tomorrow I'm going to follow my own recalibration instructions and start with a tiny rearward tilt.  I'll report my findings.

If the KS14 behaves like the KS16 some forward tilt at some situations (don't really recall - got too used to it inbetween imho) with "medium" speed is a "normal" firmware behaviour. @Blunzncalibrated his imho a bit tilting back to prevent this...

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So I did calibrate with a -2* lean.  I even made a video.  It appears that before the calibration, it was leaning forward at 1*. I'm not sure when that started, it'slost in undocumented history. 

Not ridden it yet, I'm on the eighth floor and any unusual behaviour might result in the MOAFP.  Mother of all face plants.  Not to be confused with MOAB, but ironically, slightly similar effect.

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So I went for a ride with my -2* lean and although it felt a bit strange, it was ok. But when I got to the rough, cobbled surface, where it tipped forward yesterday, it definitely felt like my toes were pointing down again.  Then when I rode a smoother path, immediately after, they pointed up again.  I suspect that the constant jarring of the cobblestones made the wheel think something was up.  Exactly what? I don't know.  Maybe, it knew that on rough surfaces the rider will bend his knees more than usual, to allow for absorbing the bumps, and that with enough knee bend one tends to put more force on the balls of ones feet and ones  heels get light.  By tipping the pedals down in the front, an allowance is made for this forward bias of foot pressure without actually speeding up? Maybe? I don't know.  Your guess is as good as mine.

about DRIFT of the calibration setting:. I left the house this morning with a -2* pedal lean.  When I got home the angle was -4* !!!

Drift suspicion confirmed.

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1 hour ago, Smoother said:

So I went for a ride with my -2* lean and although it felt a bit strange, it was ok. But when I got to the rough, cobbled surface, where it tipped forward yesterday, it definitely felt like my toes were pointing down again.  Then when I rode a smoother path, immediately after, they pointed up again.  I suspect that the constant jarring of the cobblestones made the wheel think something was up.  Exactly what? I don't know.  Maybe, it knew that on rough surfaces the rider will bend his knees more than usual, to allow for absorbing the bumps, and that with enough knee bend one tends to put more force on the balls of ones feet and ones  heels get light.  By tipping the pedals down in the front, an allowance is made for this forward bias of foot pressure without actually speeding up? Maybe? I don't know.  Your guess is as good as mine.

about DRIFT of the calibration setting:. I left the house this morning with a -2* pedal lean.  When I got home the angle was -4* !!!

Drift suspicion confirmed.

I've ridden very rough conditions with my 14C and never an issue. See this video  

Very hard to remote diagnose a problem, but maybe you do have failure in the works.

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11 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I've ridden very rough conditions with my 14C and never an issue. See this video  

Very hard to remote diagnose a problem, but maybe you do have failure in the works.

Oh, I DO " have failure in the works"....but enough about me. ?

I've seen your video, and yes that was impressive, except when you drove Into a gully the same radius as your tire and you stopped dead.  I laughed, I'm sorry. Was that wrong??

Actually, all nit picking aside, I'm tremendously impressed with the ks 14c's capabilities.  It goes like stink, climbs very steep grades like a raped ape, and descends the same hills  like a mountain goat.  It really is a great all-round FPV.  I can put up with it's idiosyncrasies like I would a favourite vintage motorcycle. I'm happy to recalibrate it from time to time. It only takes 30 seconds.

 

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Today I had a chance to play with the different modes. Definitely, either of the two 'soft' modes does result in a downward tilt of the pedals during acceleration and at high speed. The 3rd mode has no tilt.

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5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Today I had a chance to play with the different modes. Definitely, either of the two 'soft' modes does result in a downward tilt of the pedals during acceleration and at high speed. The 3rd mode has no tilt.

That's interesting, because mine has never been out of hard mode, except momentarily, when testing.  Then it's returned to hard mode immediately.  I don't see the point in the other modes.  Does anyone ride in them?

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4 minutes ago, Smoother said:

That's interesting, because mine has never been out of hard mode, except momentarily, when testing.  Then it's returned to hard mode immediately.  I don't see the point in the other modes.  Does anyone ride in them?

@codersarepeople is, I believe, running in one of the non-hard modes, which is contributing to the downward tilt of his pedals, the focus of this thread.

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I was reading the specs. of the Freeman wheel on @MaxLinux link referring to @Sidestreet Reny new wheel.  And there was a line in there that got me thinking.  

It says something like this; low power protection, pedals tip forward until speed is reduced. So I was thinking, why would you want to tip the pedals forward if a low power situation had developed? Wouldn't that make the wheel go faster? Ans. No, not if it is the control board tipping the wheel forward and not the rider.  Because if the control board is doing the tipping, in this case, it is also limiting the power, not increasing it.  And what must a rider do if he finds his feet tipped forward unnaturally with no speed gain? Lean back a bit, otherwise he's either going to scrape his toes, slide off the pedals or do a FP, or all three.  

Im not sure what happened to the OP I wasn't there, but on my cobbled street, maybe the constant jarring and the accompanying surges of power, needed to keep the system in equilibrium, and my relatively low 340wh battery capacity, combined with my motors ability to produce up to 3000w ( in theory), warned the control board of a potential lack of power, and tilted the pedals forward to inhibit my ability to accelerate (thus reducing my safety margin) , which it did BTW. 

Again, maybe I'm totally off base, but like @MaxLinux seemingly un connected link led me to theorise about my situation, maybe my theories will help you figure out a situation you find yourself in.

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2 hours ago, Smoother said:

I was reading the specs. of the Freeman wheel on @MaxLinux link referring to @Sidestreet Reny new wheel.  And there was a line in there that got me thinking.  

It says something like this; low power protection, pedals tip forward until speed is reduced. So I was thinking, why would you want to tip the pedals forward if a low power situation had developed? Wouldn't that make the wheel go faster? Ans. No, not if it is the control board tipping the wheel forward and not the rider.  Because if the control board is doing the tipping, in this case, it is also limiting the power, not increasing it.  And what must a rider do if he finds his feet tipped forward unnaturally with no speed gain? Lean back a bit, otherwise he's either going to scrape his toes, slide off the pedals or do a FP, or all three.  

Im not sure what happened to the OP I wasn't there, but on my cobbled street, maybe the constant jarring and the accompanying surges of power, needed to keep the system in equilibrium, and my relatively low 340wh battery capacity, combined with my motors ability to produce up to 3000w ( in theory), warned the control board of a potential lack of power, and tilted the pedals forward to inhibit my ability to accelerate (thus reducing my safety margin) , which it did BTW. 

Again, maybe I'm totally off base, but like @MaxLinux seemingly un connected link led me to theorise about my situation, maybe my theories will help you figure out a situation you find yourself in.

@Smoother there was some discussion a few months ago about Ninebot tipping further and further forward when going down a series of small drop offs like those walkways that drop down 2 or 3 inches every 10 feet or so, the consensus seemed to be that is was in fact firmware related, appearing in the latest firmware.

I think you may be right about it being some kind of safety feature to protect the electronics.

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Yeah, thanks, @steve454 . I'm not sure of anything.  Just came back from a ride, and at times I wasn't sure if I was riding the wheel, or the wheel was riding me; so much pedal movement coming back from the wheel to my feet.  Tip back, tip forward, sometimes both in the  space of a 1m  turn. I know it's trying to tell me something, but I wish it would shut up and ride.  Like I said x posts ago; it used to just stay flat and change speed in relation to my foot pressure.  Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed my ride, there was just a bit too much hitch in my get along today.

no. My pedals aren't loose

no. My pedal struts aren't loose either 

no. I'm not riding in a soft ride mode

no. My battery wasn't low

no. I'm not running an outdated firmware

no. I'm not too heavy. (85kg)

no. I wasn't climbing big hills, I was at the beach

no. I wasn't riding it backwards 

no. I wasn't wearing flip flops

no. The streets weren't wet

no. My tire wasn't flat.

no. my feet weren't too far forward or backward 

yes. I still like my 14c.

different ship different day.  Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Smoother said:

Like I said x posts ago; it used to just stay flat and change speed in relation to my foot pressure.  Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed my ride, there was just a bit too much hitch in my get along today.

no. My pedals aren't loose

no. My pedal struts aren't loose either 

no. I'm not riding in a soft ride mode

no. My battery wasn't low

no. I'm not running an outdated firmware

no. I'm not too heavy. (85kg)

no. I wasn't climbing big hills, I was at the beach

no. I wasn't riding it backwards 

no. I wasn't wearing flip flops

no. The streets weren't wet

no. My tire wasn't flat.

no. my feet weren't too far forward or backward 

yes. I still like my 14c.

different ship different day.  Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

To me the pedal behavior you have been experiencing would be too distracting and annoying to continue riding the wheel.

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On 1 December 2016 at 5:25 PM, codersarepeople said:

I'm usually pushing 20 mph the whole trip

On a ks14!!! Really? Mine tries to throw me off at a gps indicated 26/27 kph,  on a well charged battery.   that's 16.7 mph if I did my sums right.  20 mph would be 32.4kmh!!.  That would  awesome.  But seriously, how did you measure your speed? , because I'd really like 20 mph too.

On 2 December 2016 at 0:07 AM, codersarepeople said:

So I've been riding around today and I'm convinced it's not mental, my pedals are tilted down. A level app on my phone is showing me  that the ks is staying level when I'm not on it.

Is there a typo in there somewhere? " I'm convinced it's not mental" " my pedals are tilted down" ... "The ks is staying level when I'm not on it" so is it level when your not on its not mental because it tilts down when your on it? I'm confused. ?

One more question: wha type of road surface were you on? Smooth or bumpy?

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@Smoother

did this behavior been the hole time?

or did it start after a certain point, crash, whatsoever?

i would inspect the board and check if the 2 big capacitors are still connected to the board...or if one of the legs of them is disconnected or broken...

the behaviour you are experiencing is definitely not normal! Ks14 was my first wheel and it does as well as all other KS, beside that its a smaller wheel!

check with your seller otherwise!

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I have read some of your other threads and wheel behaviors here on the forum...

can be two things with your wheel:

-you got a technical problem, perhaps with the capacitors, these  normally work in a way that you all time have power reserve and all times the same energy for the board is there. If they are not working....your wheel/pedals gets mushy...

- second thing can be that you are always pushing to hard and have  in you mind you are on a 40kmh 1600wh machine...when I read how you are "surprised" of harsh tiltback...that's only if you are way to fast accelerating into the titlback speed....

So I am not quit sure what it is ;-)

 

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4 hours ago, Smoother said:

On a ks14!!! Really? Mine tries to throw me off at a gps indicated 26/27 kph,  on a well charged battery.   that's 16.7 mph if I did my sums right.  20 mph would be 32.4kmh!!.  That would  awesome.  But seriously, how did you measure your speed? , because I'd really like 20 mph too.

<snip>

My KS14C (840wh) goes about 19mph but I usually don't ride it full-out like that because it doesn't feel like the most stable of wheels at high speed. The specifications do say that its max speed is 19mph. Maybe your max speed set via the app isn't set correct? My tilt-back speed is set to 30kph (~19mph).

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On 4 December 2016 at 7:18 PM, MaxLinux said:

To me the pedal behavior you have been experiencing would be too distracting and annoying to continue riding the wheel.

Yes it is distracting. And, I Just discovered something new I think.  I was coming down a long hill that turned left and right through 180* as it descended. On a few corners, the pedals would smoothly tilt forward, but my speed remained the same.  So imagine descending and turning with forward tilted pedals but not accelerating.  Weird huh? Of course I leant back a bit more because I didn't want my feet to slide off the pedals.  That did reduce the speed, which was about 15 kph est.

 

22 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

 

@Smoother

did this behavior been the hole time?

or did it start after a certain point, crash, whatsoever?

 

 

No. For the first few weeks the pedals never moved at all. Speed up, slow down, cruise, turn left turn right, turn on a slope; nothing made the pedals move.  It was strictly a one way communication channel; I applied pressure and the wheel responded.  Nothing EVER came back from the pedals, and I liked it. I knew where I stood, literally.

then I overcharged it.  Not my fault, factory charger, following the instructions.  When it came back on it would tilt slowly backwards, stop at about 14* then tip all the way forwards to about 10* as well. It does this over and over, but if you jump on when it's levelish and ride ( not down hill) it will settle down.( later someone pointed out it was an overcharging problem and it would be alright once the battery level had reduced)  Somewhere in the process of figuring it out, I  activated the level recalibration process, and about the same time it started behaving normally.....except now the pedals start feeding me information in the form of tilts; forward, back,etc.  The other day I actually had to dismount in a slow tight turn because as I entered, it tilted forward, and 2feet later it tilted back.  My ankles and rapidly changing CG  in a tight turn couldn't cope so I stepped off.

22 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

you got a technical problem, perhaps with the capacitors, these  normally work in a way that you all time have power reserve and all times the same energy for the board is there. If they are not working....your wheel/pedals gets mushy.

That's worth checking out.  Although I wouldn't say my pedals are mushy.  There is definitely some logic to what they do, I just don't know what it is.  They move in a very deliberate way.  It's not like they are randomly taking certain positions, they move with authority, like they have a purpose for every move.

 

22 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

- second thing can be that you are always pushing to hard and have  in you mind you are on a 40kmh 1600wh machine...when I read how you are "surprised" of harsh tiltback...that's only if you are way to fast accelerating into the titlback speed.

No.  It was only recently I even removed the factory speed limiter.  Up until then 20 kph was my limit, well under the wheels max speed.Sometimes I do push for speed, and when I get bitten I know why, ( both time low tier). it's only recently I have been bumping against the full speed limit, and even when I did i did it gently, it still almost threw me off and that was gps 26/27 kph, not accelerating. I have 2 minutes of film showing my cruise on almost flat road with gps speed in the corner of the picture,,then beep beep beep wham! I do agree that when I hit fast tilt back I was accelerating but it was low battery spike that got me both times, not overall speed.  I would say no more than 20kph both times, in fact I think the first time was before I removed the factory speed limiter, so that had to be under 20 kph.

I understand when and how sudden tilt back catches me out.  I take full responsibility, and say so in my reports, don't I?

  But all the other pedal movement occur many times during every trip and I ride two or three times a day, but I've only had 3 or 4 violent tilts. Just for the record, I was coming down a hill the other day, and regenerative braking filled my battery.  I got beep beep, beep beep and a linear but quite rapid tilt back.  It wasn't violent but it happened maybe 2 seconds after the first beep.  I barely had time to figure out what the beeping was for before I was forced to clumsily step off or fall off. Speed, about 12 kph.  I have that on gps video too.

19 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

My KS14C (840wh) goes about 19mph but I usually don't ride it full-out like that because it doesn't feel like the most stable of wheels at high speed. The specifications do say that its max speed is 19mph. Maybe your max speed set via the app isn't set correct? My tilt-back speed is set to 30kph (~19mph).

What are you using to measure those speeds? I've heard the app is 1.25 optimistic. 19mph is about 30.78kph so it sounds like you are using the app to measure.  When I first tried to set the max, I tried to set it to 35 but it kept defaulting to 30.  So that's when I realised that 30k was the max, even though I read somewhere that it was 40 (marketing bullshit probably) so I confirmed 30 in the app, and I set alarm 3 at 29.  29/1.25 ( exaggeration factor reported by others)= 23.2 so I expected an actual speed of around 23kph and then beeps.  So when I used a dash cam app with gps speed superimposed on video, I expected 3beeps at 22kph.  I was pleasantly surprised to see the GPs speed climb to 26/27 a few times.  So I was cruising around that speed, no beeps,  then suddenly 3 beeps and a simultaneous wham! Violent tilt back and almos butt planted on a public road. Now 26 actual kph is 16 actual mph. So I'd still like to know how  you and @codersarepeople are getting or even maintaining 19 and 20 mph, and how you measure it.?

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2 hours ago, Smoother said:

So I'd still like to know how  you and @codersarepeople are getting or even maintaining 19 and 20 mph, and how you measure it.

To be honest, I am surprised to hear you had this tiltback issue.  My 3rd alarm and tiltback are both set to 30kmph, but I only hear the beeps, I've never actually experienced tiltback.  Luckily, I'm <60 kg, so I am not too worried about unexpected shutoffs, and I always deccellerate as soon as I hear the beeps.

As for your discussion of the shaking pedals, I also get this, especially when hitting bumps at high speeds.  I usually just decellerate and it fixes the problem.  It never happens to me on roads, because they're so smooth, but it's very annoying on sidewalks that have tree roots ruining them.

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5 hours ago, Smoother said:

What are you using to measure those speeds? I've heard the app is 1.25 optimistic.

Nope...the app is not to optimistic on speed...km/h is absolute ok!

Speed is very correct! its just to optimistic. for range...the miles you have done...travelled!

 

check your board ...when i say mushy for misfunctioning capacitor....its just an easy discription!

something seams to be wrong then on your wheel....i have had all KS wheels...none had done such things!

and ks14 goes 30kmh easily...while i would  not recommend that on  a 340wh under 50-60%!!!

 

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I also get quite strong forward tilt and temporary super-soft forward-backward-swing-mode when riding on cobble stone with a Gotway 14" MCM2s. It's on the limit to be (not) ridable. I believe I also got it once at high speed, but haven't reproduced this event since, I guess you know why. I have considered these as some sort of overload warnings as I guess that cobble stone at low to medium speed (before to get float over the stone tips) is quite energy consuming.

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7 hours ago, Smoother said:

<snip>

What are you using to measure those speeds? I've heard the app is 1.25 optimistic. 19mph is about 30.78kph so it sounds like you are using the app to measure.  When I first tried to set the max, I tried to set it to 35 but it kept defaulting to 30.  So that's when I realised that 30k was the max, even though I read somewhere that it was 40 (marketing bullshit probably) so I confirmed 30 in the app, and I set alarm 3 at 29.  29/1.25 ( exaggeration factor reported by others)= 23.2 so I expected an actual speed of around 23kph and then beeps.  So when I used a dash cam app with gps speed superimposed on video, I expected 3beeps at 22kph.  I was pleasantly surprised to see the GPs speed climb to 26/27 a few times.  So I was cruising around that speed, no beeps,  then suddenly 3 beeps and a simultaneous wham! Violent tilt back and almos butt planted on a public road. Now 26 actual kph is 16 actual mph. So I'd still like to know how  you and @codersarepeople are getting or even maintaining 19 and 20 mph, and how you measure it.?

I'm using the app. And I now have a pretty good sense of speeds just by the road noise, etc.  1st and 2nd alarms are off and tilt-back is set to 30.  I've never experience tilt-back on the KS14C, just the warning beeps when I'm running at the topend speed. I think the sweet spot for this wheel is 15-18 mph. Anything more feels uncomfortable - I'll keep the 20+ mph speeds to my Gotway's.

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Thanks all, for your replies and insight. Unfortunately I have no other ks14 to compare it to, or other rider to try it out. Anyone near Denia, Spain, this month, or Cabo Roig Jan, or Feb is welcome to come ride the beast, and see for yourself.

ill check my app speed against a gps speed now that @KingSong69 has pointed out that it's mostly accurate.  However that still doesn't explain why I got violent tilt back at 26/27 flattish ground, not accelerating.  I'm a bit gun shy now, and don't want to get near that tilt, it really is frightening.  It's like someone suddenly tugs it right out from in front of you, and not knowing when it's coming is the worst part.

 All the pedal tilting, I can live with, although I'd rather not.

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