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Wheels getting bigger and bigger...and heavier and heavier

And the central main rod, where all the weigth/chassis/shell/pedals/driver is on..is still staying the same......Just a 1 cm rod.....

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2 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Wheels getting bigger and bigger...and heavier and heavier

And the central main rod, where all the weigth/chassis/shell/pedals/driver is on..is still staying the same......Just a 1 cm rod.....

That's a good point. And with the axles cracking problems reported on some wheels, where the axle is machined flat to mate with the pedal arms, you're right to be concerned.  Btw. Why do they machine it thinner and weaker, just wher it needs full strength.  Surely a way has been invented to connect a bar to a rod that didn't require weakening the rod.  Probably 200years ago, if my recollection of the industrial revolution serves me well.

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Because also motor staying the same... Look at that tiny motor!

(If governments could stop being lazy and have these faster wheels lab tested for torque, how hard can it be really? Then they could ban specific products like this one. But instead it causes banning of all EUCs)

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2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Wheels getting bigger and bigger...and heavier and heavier

And the central main rod, where all the weigth/chassis/shell/pedals/driver is on..is still staying the same......Just a 1 cm rod.....

so......

SAME motor?

SAME central main rod?

you gotta be kidding... if anyone here thinks GotWay is interested in making their wheels safer and longer-lasting.... HMMMMMMMMM (as you can see from my signature.... I LOVE GOTWAY....)

someone @Linnea Lin Gotway tell me i'm wrong, please

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4 hours ago, zlymex said:

It may just like I've guessed that the motor is the same as those in V3, only the rim is larger.

Why I've guessed that? If I were the designer of this 22 inch, I'll do the same.

that motor is FAR TOO WEAK to power a 22" wheel... There have been so many failures when it is being used for an 18 inch wheel. If any one of us believe there would ever be regulations for companies regarding safety you can forget about it after this. I love GotWay , but if it is true that there is the same small axle and small motor that they use on the 18 inch wheel. All they are doing is trying to flood the market with something nobody else has, without any consideration for who might be buying it or whether they will live long enough to buy another wheel, sadly

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12 hours ago, Greg Spalding said:

that motor is FAR TOO WEAK to power a 22" wheel... There have been so many failures when it is being used for an 18 inch wheel. If any one of us believe there would ever be regulations for companies regarding safety you can forget about it after this. I love GotWay , but if it is true that there is the same small axle and small motor that they use on the 18 inch wheel. All they are doing is trying to flood the market with something nobody else has, without any consideration for who might be buying it or whether they will live long enough to buy another wheel, sadly

I understand the concern. They said the axle and wires of the motor will be enlarged for this 22 inch, but there is no photo of the other side. Although the EUC is getting heavier, the total weight(plus the rider) has not changed much, and the axle and pedal arms are designed to support the total weight.

From my point of view, the failures of 18 inch is mainly due to the mainboard rather than the motor.

There is no need for an 22 inch to increase the torque, because the pedal size is unchanged. Although it seems to be the max. torque required for the motor is proportional to the wheel size, but the max. torque the rider can apply to the EUC is reverse proportional to the wheel size, given the pedal size is unchanged.

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4 hours ago, zlymex said:

I understand the concern. They said the axle and wires of the motor will be enlarged for this 22 inch, but there is no photo of the other side. Although the EUC is getting heavier, the total weight(plus the rider) has not changed much, and the axle and pedal arms are designed to support the total weight.

From my point of view, the failures of 18 inch is mainly due to the mainboard rather than the motor.

There is no need for an 22 inch to increase the torque, because the pedal size is unchanged. Although it seems to be the max. torque required for the motor is proportional to the wheel size, but the max. torque the rider can apply to the EUC is reverse proportional to the wheel size, given the pedal size is unchanged.

Increasing torque is one of the most requested and important features for EUCs. But I'm not even asking for an increase, just at least keep the level of torque we had before.. These vehicles are getting banned for too long braking distances and downhill they're worse.

With higher mounted pedals and longer pedals you can apply more tilt. Also higher tilt sensitivity, a more responsive ride mode tweaked for the pedal position and wheel size. And because of the size of the shell you can squeeze it with your knees so even a lighter rider can tilt with more force. By the way, for a heavy rider hard mode is already like soft mode for a light rider.. So pressure can definitely be applied!

When only the ACM was out people were already concerned with the long braking distance.. Then the Msuper v3 comes with even longer braking distance.. And now this 22" when this Monster is up and rolling it will not stop easily...

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I think it's also possible to program a differential braking behavior for any wheel. The forward tilting works as normal, so when riding you can keep pressure forward as usual. But the backward tilting is handled with higher sensitivity for a stronger response. If this feels more or less natural for balance I don't know, but it should work if the pedals are grippy and you don't ride the wheel in the wrong direction? Another way to say it is a combo ride mode: soft forward + hard backward.

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1 hour ago, nomad said:

Increasing torque is one of the most requested and important features for EUCs. But I'm not even asking for an increase, just at least keep the level of torque we had before.. These vehicles are getting banned for too long braking distances and downhill they're worse.

With higher mounted pedals and longer pedals you can apply more tilt. Also higher tilt sensitivity, a more responsive ride mode tweaked for the pedal position and wheel size. And because of the size of the shell you can squeeze it with your knees so even a lighter rider can tilt with more force. By the way, for a heavy rider hard mode is already like soft mode for a light rider.. So pressure can definitely be applied!

When only the ACM was out people were already concerned with the long braking distance.. Then the Msuper v3 comes with even longer braking distance.. And now this 22" when this Monster is up and rolling it will not stop easily...

Undeniably, braking distance is one of the most important factor of EUCs.

However, braking distance is much more dependent on speed than the torque. For instance, if the braking distance from 20kph to 0 is 5 meters, then the braking distance from 40kph to 20kph is much more, owing to the energy is 3 times, and the available torque may be less than half.

A faster EUC does not mean it can ride fast at any circumstance. The rider is responsible for choosing the right place for fast ride and avoid emergency brake.

I don't know the regulations of other places, but in China, EUC like vehicles is limited to 20kph, that's why the max speed of IPS T260 was  specified as 19.9kph to keep within the allowable limit. In another word, all EUC Gotway produced are government stoppable.

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24 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Given that it's quite hard to push an MS3 up a hill with any sort of commitment (without pedal extensions), surely it will be even harder to do it with the 22 inch if the pedal length is the same, no ?

yep....

ridiculous.....

where is @Linnea Lin Gotway to answer our concerns

these things are going to shut off ALL THE TIME if they aren't BEEFED up.... period

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3 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

these things are going to shut off ALL THE TIME if they aren't BEEFED up.... period

I assume that now they are in production, with things like axle size and pedal length it is too late to do anything about it in this run ?

Or maybe they will surprise us all, and have already thought of and addressed all our points ! :)

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2 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

I assume that now they are in production, with things like axle size and pedal length it is too late to do anything about it in this run ?

Or maybe they will surprise us all, and have already thought of and addressed all our points ! :)

i hope so... otherwise.... i'm NOT impressed with their desire to be in business for THE LONG TERM

and.... as my signature says.. I LOVE GOTWAY

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In a way, I don't mind it when a company like GW reach for the sky and build a slightly dodgy machine - they are on the cutting edge after all, and somebody has to push the limits, and try dangerous new things first :) And I am so overwhelmingly grateful to them for enabling me to go whizzing round the countryside, most of the time without problems, that I can forgive them the odd mistake along the way...

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18 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

In a way, I don't mind it when a company like GW reach for the sky and build a slightly dodgy machine - they are on the cutting edge after all, and somebody has to push the limits, and try dangerous new things first :) And I am so overwhelmingly grateful to them for enabling me to go whizzing round the countryside, most of the time without problems, that I can forgive them the odd mistake along the way...

That odd mistake could be your life though

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There's nothing cutting edge here really.. Making this properly is maybe out of range for Gotway. It's not as easy as jamming in a bigger motor with a new rim/tire.. They need to develop a much beefier control board with heavy duty components and bigger heatsinks, it probably would not fit the plastic shell mold they now have for this. Basically that's what they did here, make a 22" plastic shell and call it Monster. If this sells or not doesn't really matter, they clearly did not put much effort in after all. The most expensive parts are interchangeable for their smaller wheels if needed to keep cost down. It looks almost like they're just milking old ACM parts for 22" bragging rights...

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I applaud GW for willing to put their resources to try something new. There is always more risks in pushing the limit. But that is how progresses are made. There are always 2 sides of the same story. If GW uses the same parts for 18" on a 22" wheel, that gives me more confidence in my MSV3. 

 

About the braking distance: Consider 2 EUCs, with radius r1<r2. Since Power = force*speed, the  backward force you can get at the same speed is independent of wheel radius, provided the power at that speed is also the same. The problem is that the max power of a motor occurs at the 1/2 of no-load speed v1Max < v2Max (meter/second). If you brake the smaller EUC at the speed v1Max/2, the braking force is more than the bigger EUC, r2 traveling at the same speed. Conclusion: If the motor for the bigger EUC has the same no-load speed and hence a lower max rpm, then their braking performance should be the same.

Thus, to increase the braking performance, 1. increase the board capability and battery size to handle bigger regenerating current. 2. Use a higher torque motor. 3. increase the motor power.

I suspect that the bottleneck is the board and battery size is not enough to handle the braking current. So, GW increases battery size, and possibly strengthen the board on the Monster.

 

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1 hour ago, Donafello said:

That odd mistake could be your life though

Well yeah, but not so much if you're kitted up properly, and recognize the risk you are about to take when you get on one of these things and go fast...

I've just done a downhill BMX track on my MS3 (incredibly didn't crash) but I was wearing pretty much full-on moto armour and full head MC helmet in case I did.

I'd be happy to try out and test the Monster, even with all its perceived flaws, but I am lacking the requisite funds, and only just got a new one, so I will have to leave the honour / risk to you guys :) 

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I must be a very defensive rider because breaking distance hasn't been a consideration with me. I don't know if I'm going to buy an Monster, but I'm certainly thinking about it. Unlike my MSuper, I'm going to wait to see some reviews based on first hand experience before I pull the trigger.

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1 hour ago, EUCMania said:

I applaud GW for willing to put their resources to try something new. There is always more risks in pushing the limit. But that is how progresses are made. There are always 2 sides of the same story. If GW uses the same parts for 18" on a 22" wheel, that gives me more confidence in my MSV3. 

 

About the braking distance: Consider 2 EUCs, with radius r1<r2. Since Power = force*speed, the  backward force you can get at the same speed is independent of wheel radius, provided the power at that speed is also the same. The problem is that the max power of a motor occurs at the 1/2 of no-load speed v1Max < v2Max (meter/second). If you brake the smaller EUC at the speed v1Max/2, the braking force is more than the bigger EUC, r2 traveling at the same speed. Conclusion: If the motor for the bigger EUC has the same no-load speed and hence a lower max rpm, then their braking performance should be the same.

Thus, to increase the braking performance, 1. increase the board capability and battery size to handle bigger regenerating current. 2. Use a higher torque motor. 3. increase the motor power.

I suspect that the bottleneck is the board and battery size is not enough to handle the braking current. So, GW increases battery size, and possibly strengthen the board on the Monster.

 

In this case the mechanical proportions are not the same at all. The job of the motor windings, where the torque is generated, is to pull the leverage between the center axle and the ground contact point. With the ACM 16" tire the motor windings are much closer to the rim making the job much easier for this motor. Think using a big wrench to tighten a bolt, gripping the wrench closer to the bolt will be much harder compared to grabbing the end of the handle.

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I must be a very defensive rider because breaking distance hasn't been a consideration with me. I don't know if I'm going to buy an Monster, but I'm certainly thinking about it. Unlike my MSuper, I'm going to wait to see some reviews based on first hand experience before I pull the trigger.

I agree with you, of course but one day you were going to have to brake quickly probably because something is in your path you can't see until you are right in front of it for some child is going to walk out in front of you even when you are only going 10... That is not the time to find out your board will fail in that situation and you will topple forwards

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1 hour ago, nomad said:

In this case the mechanical proportions are not the same at all. The job of the motor windings, where the torque is generated, is to pull the leverage between the center axle and the ground contact point. With the ACM 16" tire the motor windings are much closer to the rim making the job much easier for this motor. Think using a big wrench to tighten a bolt, gripping the wrench closer to the bolt will be much harder compared to grabbing the end of the handle.

But bigger wheel traveling at the same speed rotates slower, outputing more torque, which may cancel the effect of a larger radius. After all the formula is P=Fv. The key is the efficiency of the motor at certain speed range. The bigger radius move the most efficient speed up, lowering the efficiency at the lower speed range.

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