PTrider Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I was shocked when I saw this video! The motherboard sits on top of a hole without any separation from the tyre... I guess thats good for cooling it but as the weel spins water may freely be splashed onto the motherbard, same I guess with any pebbles. Water may shortcircuit the motherboard even if its not raining and we just happen to ride pass a little pudle of water! Can someone please tell me that Im wrong?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 I think there is a rectangular sticky rubber gasket that maybe seals the wheel side from the aluminum cooling plate? I don't own one of these, but even if it wasn't sealed there I think water would have a hard time moving up and around that metal plate to get to the control board. I think they usually coat the control boards with some sort of silicone covering as well so that likely helps. It would be nicer to have it all waterproof as people are bound to go through puddles, oceans (looking at you @Marty Backe), etc so yeah I'm all for weatherproofing against the elements especially since our safety relies critically on the electronics! Maybe some silicone sealer along the seams would be a good idea too. Too bad these boards aren't encapsulated in an aluminum waterproof box like IPS boards are. You really should be able to immerse the entire wheel in water for X number of hours, and it should still function fine. That's my thinking at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 4 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I think there is a rectangular sticky rubber gasket that maybe seals the wheel side from the aluminum cooling plate? I don't own one of these, but even if it wasn't sealed there I think water would have a hard time moving up and around that metal plate to get to the control board. I think they usually coat the control boards with some sort of silicone covering as well so that likely helps. It would be nicer to have it all waterproof as people are bound to go through puddles, oceans (looking at you @Marty Backe), etc so yeah I'm all for weatherproofing against the elements especially since our safety relies critically on the electronics! Maybe some silicone sealer along the seams would be a good idea too. Too bad these boards aren't encapsulated in an aluminum waterproof box like IPS boards are. You really should be able to immerse the entire wheel in water for X number of hours, and it should still function fine. That's my thinking at least. I saw a video by Ian (Speedyfeet) where he installed a new control board in the MSuper. There is a gasket that presses against the heat sink, just as you describe, so that's why I felt comfortable taking my MSuper into the ocean. I look forward to more ocean rides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I saw a video by Ian (Speedyfeet) where he installed a new control board in the MSuper. There is a gasket that presses against the heat sink, just as you describe, so that's why I felt comfortable taking my MSuper into the ocean. I look forward to more ocean rides Say what you want... We know you are just a restless rebel, living the dream that we are too scared to dream about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 5 hours ago, Marty Backe said: I saw a video by Ian (Speedyfeet) where he installed a new control board in the MSuper. There is a gasket that presses against the heat sink, just as you describe, so that's why I felt comfortable taking my MSuper into the ocean. I look forward to more ocean rides Frankly - more than water / moist itself I'd be worried about the salt. It's pain now in winter with all the salted street / roads here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1RadWerkstatt Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 One feedback from me: i have never a KS16 with a Water issue or problem... One dirver lost control and ks16 fall complete in water result: motor 100ml full with water battery packs wet (we have repair with new BMS) and the mainboard is acutally now running...i was self amazed...with water in motor can also drive all is isolated good enough.... Motor Bearings are dead an horrible noise...we have also changed bearings This KS16 is now fine an all works perfect Chris 1RadWerkstatt We have now discount on all KS16 and can ship everywhere check www.1RadWerkstatt.de Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HermanTheGerman Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 10 hours ago, PTrider said: Water may shortcircuit the motherboard even if its not raining and we just happen to ride pass a little pudle of water! Can someone please tell me that Im wrong?!! You are wrong! You don't need to cross a puddle, but a river, then it will be o.k. ! Proof here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeJveOOAgzA&t=0m40s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 12 hours ago, PTrider said: I was shocked when I saw this video! The motherboard sits on top of a hole without any separation from the tyre... I guess thats good for cooling it but as the weel spins water may freely be splashed onto the motherbard, same I guess with any pebbles. Water may shortcircuit the motherboard even if its not raining and we just happen to ride pass a little pudle of water! Can someone please tell me that Im wrong?!! This is the normal way the boards are mounted in the wheels. It's the same system used for the ninebot one e+ and imho also for gotways. it is just the aluminium plate (heatsink) which is exposed to the exteriour, and not the PCB. between the casing and the aluminium plate is (should be) some sealing tape to prevent water/dust from coming in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 15 hours ago, PTrider said: I was shocked when I saw this video! The motherboard sits on top of a hole without any separation from the tyre... I guess thats good for cooling it but as the weel spins water may freely be splashed onto the motherbard, same I guess with any pebbles. Water may shortcircuit the motherboard even if its not raining and we just happen to ride pass a little pudle of water! Can someone please tell me that Im wrong?!! Better take a look in the following Video...there you can see that there is a Silicon band/tape, so this is just for cooling of the heat plate like an all wheels: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 @1RadWerkstatt if the battery packs don't require venting, why don't manufacturers seal them up so they are completely waterproof? I notice that Ninebot One's have battery packs where they have sealed up the seams of the shrink wrap with silicone to help prevent water ingress. It's a bit sloppy looking, but at least it's something. There must be a better way to completely seal all packs and use waterproof connectors. Think motorcycles. They have electric starters, electronics, batteries, motors, but they are perfectly fine riding through rainstorms. I know it might increase manufacturer costs and ultimately costs to consumers, but wouldn't the bragging rights and safety benefits of having a weatherproof EUC be worth it? People could then ride without fear outdoors if it rains or if their wheel falls into a large puddle or the ocean (@Marty Backe stop doing that you're givng me a heart attack!). They could go offroading (or beach riding) in muddy and wet conditions and then hose off their ride without any concerns. Although these EUCs aren't intended for in-water riding, with the larger and larger battery packs coming out, a little solid, purposeful waterproofing would be great insurance against an electrical short and potential explosion for these expensive toys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLinux Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 On 11/17/2016 at 7:14 PM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Too bad these boards aren't encapsulated in an aluminum waterproof box like IPS boards are. Thank you, IPS, for your attention to quality! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 9 minutes ago, MaxLinux said: Thank you, IPS, for your attention to quality! I agree ... IPS is one step ahead of the competition in integrating BMS with Control Systems and sealing it all against the elements. This requires more complex engineering, but assures better control over operation problems and shutdowns that separate control and BMS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1RadWerkstatt Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 we make self Batterys for all EUC´s and not make a sealing...to many problems: - it is only a attempt to seal not sure that this try works - later one hole and you have both water can not good in and out without seal you can drive at rain no water can go into battery..nerver seen only when you pull the wheel in river.... When you go with wheel to bathroom and shower with him :-) yes that can kill board or battery´s With normal using no water problems.. in past time only 2 killed Airwheel X3´s here with water kill... one a kid drive over a ground fountain other second i can not say.... @ IPS bad design - same problems when BMS detect a problem...controler switch off...no benefits - 17 cabel to BMS in this aluminium case only more wirerring... more problems: 6 or 12 MosFet´s connected to the thin case...the case is in most/all IPS wheel´s complete isolated from fresh air... no additional cooling for low power Wheels only a good solution >> IPS T260 T350 low speeds require low power over the time off power on conclusion: no manufacture make a good setup (all brands) - Ninebot, GotWay, Airwheel, IPS, KS, Inmotion (old style problem...battery safety stands over riders safety) No brand going to right way...all make more Speed...more lights...better design....but no more safety...short view production 1RadWerkstatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 On 27.11.2016 at 6:36 PM, Chris Westland said: I agree ... IPS is one step ahead of the competition in integrating BMS with Control Systems and sealing it all against the elements. This requires more complex engineering, but assures better control over operation problems and shutdowns that separate control and BMS. Sorry, but the IPS way of doing it is really the worst (and oldest) in history....so in real it are more a few steps back than ahead... For every small Batterie a cable is needed from Batterie to this box (17 here)....worst Batterie/BMS design ever. Like 1Radwerkstatt wrote, a BMS/cable fault, and your wheel shut down... Also no cooling/venting in this box....but as IPS only has low power wheels, perhaps enough..... You really want to tell us that this is "modern" and "a step ahead"?: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Points taken @1RadWerkstattand @KingSong69 though I think you overstate the problems with the batteries and sealed casing for the electronics. The batteries are just spread out, but the connections are not any different than in a sealed pack. They all start with ~3.7v lithium cells and these have to be individually connected, so there are no more fault points in the IPS design. Splitting the BMS electronics from control electronics, and leaving the boards open I suspect creates other problems ... electronics can dry faster, but they get wet faster, and there really isn't airflow on any of the EUC battery configurations since they are all inside the case (and individual cells are inside a plastic bag). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 On 11/29/2016 at 7:54 AM, KingSong69 said: You really want to tell us that this is "modern" and "a step ahead"?: ... an additional point (and I'm not sure how IPS might be doing this) but you'd ideally like balance charging for the cells, and I assume you are going to need wiring for both individual cells and series wired to monitor a proper balance charge. So you will have similar wiring whether you shrink wrap the cells into a brick, or lay them out like this. What I'm curious about is why they use metal clad cells rather than LiPo, such as are used in R/C drones, planes, etc. With 16 cells there would be a weight savings. Perhaps it is the high current draw of the EUC motor, and a need for cooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 13 minutes ago, Chris Westland said: ... an additional point (and I'm not sure how IPS might be doing this) but you'd ideally like balance charging for the cells, and I assume you are going to need wiring for both individual cells and series wired to monitor a proper balance charge. So you will have similar wiring whether you shrink wrap the cells into a brick, or lay them out like this. What I'm curious about is why they use metal clad cells rather than LiPo, such as are used in R/C drones, planes, etc. With 16 cells there would be a weight savings. Perhaps it is the high current draw of the EUC motor, and a need for cooling. Nope, in the Batterie "brick" packs the cells are not wired, they are all professional machine soldered to the BMS-Board directly.... For the metal clads(18650)in fact it is the other way around These used 18650 cells have the highest energy density on all industrial cells available...so in fact using Lipos would not make the EUC's smaller or lighter...But: LiPos would be better for high draws as they can stand up to 50-200Amps, while our used 18650 metal cells only are able to 10-20Amps Someone here has changed his MCM4 (which was able to hold 820wh with those 64 cylindrical cells) to use with LiPos now... And he packed it as much as goes in there....in the End he got about 580wh.... btw.: 1Radwerkstatt (=OneWheelWorkShop) is not a normal user...He is a professionall for selling -and more important here- repairing EUCs off all Kind since about 4 years, producing own Batterie packs for his customers...etc etc To bring it to the Point: He knows what he is talking about :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 4 hours ago, KingSong69 said: Nope, in the Batterie "brick" packs the cells are not wired, they are all professional machine soldered to the BMS-Board directly.... For the metal clads(18650)in fact it is the other way around These used 18650 cells have the highest energy density on all industrial cells available...so in fact using Lipos would not make the EUC's smaller or lighter...But: LiPos would be better for high draws as they can stand up to 50-200Amps, while our used 18650 metal cells only are able to 10-20Amps Someone here has changed his MCM4 (which was able to hold 820wh with those 64 cylindrical cells) to use with LiPos now... And he packed it as much as goes in there....in the End he got about 580wh.... btw.: 1Radwerkstatt (=OneWheelWorkShop) is not a normal user...He is a professionall for selling -and more important here- repairing EUCs off all Kind since about 4 years, producing own Batterie packs for his customers...etc etc To bring it to the Point: He knows what he is talking about :-) I find all this very interesting. I'm curious why LiPos can stand such high draws? The chemistry is the same isn't it? And there can't be that much difference in the heat transfer. I've looked at 1Radwerkstatt's site and his products look impeccable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, Chris Westland said: I find all this very interesting. I'm curious why LiPos can stand such high draws? The chemistry is the same isn't it? And there can't be that much difference in the heat transfer. I've looked at 1Radwerkstatt's site and his products look impeccable. he -really- has a fantastic knowledge of all kind of Euc's and there insides...i bought a batterie pack 340wh from him with fantastic build quality, and just now he is doing a custom pack for my Msuper V3(+)! The Lipo question i cant answer...but its a well known fact with their high draw capabiltiy....so i guess its a total different chemmistry in the end.... they have some other disadvantages , also! You have to balance each cell...they are more difficult to charge...and more dangerous in handling.....and have a shorter lifetime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 4 hours ago, KingSong69 said: he -really- has a fantastic knowledge of all kind of Euc's and there insides...i bought a batterie pack 340wh from him with fantastic build quality, and just now he is doing a custom pack for my Msuper V3(+)! The Lipo question i cant answer...but its a well known fact with their high draw capability....so i guess its a total different chemmistry in the end.... they have some other disadvantages , also! You have to balance each cell...they are more difficult to charge...and more dangerous in handling.....and have a shorter lifetime... I have used LiPos in my drones (I've had several of the DJI drones) and they do seem to have fewer charge cycles than the metal can batteries. And they definitely have to be balanced; if you try to fully charge the entire pack without balancing, they will either puff up, or catch fire. And DJI has special battery packs that are physically squeezed into a plastic frame, and have all of the electronics for balancing enclosed. They are able to deliver a lot of peak power (needed for flight) but they also are good for only about 50-100 charges max (and ~$100-$150 each). Drones get expensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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