Cerbera Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 5 hours ago, ImpulseZeo9201 said: If my accident has told me anything than its that if I go for a ride Its Imperative to protect your ankles as they're the first to touch the ground Even with your horrible injuries, I am not sure that is a reasonable deduction to make. In all the times I have fallen off, for example, my ankles have never touched the ground, or been hurt or scraped at all (I've always been wearing flimsy canvas baseball boots and thermal socks). Whereas wrists and knees got it every time... I'm just saying that we can't really accurately assess which bits of us get more damaged than others as a result of any single crash. I suspect we need padding everywhere if we're going faster than 25 kph if we want to be able to get up and walk (or better still ride) away. Yet, unless I am doing difficult off-road stuff, I still don't wear a helmet, because I am largely convinced, via the same flawed experiential mechanisms, that because my head has also never been injured in a EUC fall, that maybe I don't need one ! Whilst I haven't been proved wrong yet, I am dimly aware that only luck (and a bit of careful riding) has preserved my head so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpulseZeo9201 Posted November 15, 2016 Author Share Posted November 15, 2016 Fair enough. I probably can just relate to my own crash. I do think though that if your feet are about 5inches from the ground, any failure on the mechanical part will mean contact with the closest body part and ground. Wearing a full set may not be so sexy but being in the hospital isn't either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetpapi Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 17 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: With hilly cities, I wonder if it is prudent to have a tether to help bring the wheel to a stop. I can imagine a 50 pound out of control toppling wheel gaining speed on a downhill towards a group of school children or mothers with babies in strollers crossing the road... Sorry about your fall bro. I wish you a fast recovery. Also like Hunka Hunka said, it may be a good idea to tether the EUC to your waist or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 it depends quite a bit on how you fall off. I've never had a technical failure, or any fail that caused me to fall backwards. All my spills have been caused by in-path obstacles my machine couldn't circumvent, so I took forward dives every time. And in those types of fall, I can pretty much guarantee your hands will come out, and go down first, and your knees will follow shortly afterwards. Of course, having no experience of the backwards fall, I can only guess that you might most dangerously land on your coccyx, and your head could easily flick back to hit concrete. Hmmm. Its all scary thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 21 hours ago, ImpulseZeo9201 said: I'm just recovering from a major fall. I broke my leg and ankle in three places, tore all my ligaments off my foot, going down a somewhat steep hill in SF. I am 240 lbs/ 105kg and I assume the thing couldn't handle me. I was on a GW V3 and my motor just cut out and there goes my leg.. I was not going fast a steady 6mph breaking on a maybe 10-12 degree slope when all of the sudden it cut out and yeah.. I found out that there are not only limits to how fast but also on how much breaking or voltage or whatever you can draw from those machines. I highly recommend wearing boots, motorcycle or very solid ankle protecting boots like the once worn by EMS personal to avoid having to deal with the ligament damage not to mention fractures.. Will I ride again? Probably but avoid those hills Really sorry to learn about the severities of your injuries. I think there's a bit of bad luck involved too, as every accident has different repercussions. I injured myself (only scrapes and bruises) with a 0mph fall, yet have face planted at over 10mph with no injuries. No offense meant, but I wonder if the severity of your injuries could have been caused by your weight. Mass plus speed equals force applied toward ligaments and bones. I think maybe one important lesson for heavier people is the need for extra caution and maybe extra padding/support? Hope your recovery is on the quick side, and don't give up on the EUC (doesn't look like you were going to). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpulseZeo9201 Posted November 15, 2016 Author Share Posted November 15, 2016 I never give up. Im pretty tall too, Being 6'7" I have a long way to fall. Haha my coccyx luckily never got injured. At least not from EUCing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 9 hours ago, Cerbera said: I'm just saying that we can't really accurately assess which bits of us get more damaged than others as a result of any single crash. I suspect we need padding everywhere if we're going faster than 25 kph if we want to be able to get up and walk (or better still ride) away. Yet, unless I am doing difficult off-road stuff, I still don't wear a helmet, because I am largely convinced, via the same flawed experiential mechanisms, that because my head has also never been injured in a EUC fall, that maybe I don't need one ! Whilst I haven't been proved wrong yet, I am dimly aware that only luck (and a bit of careful riding) has preserved my head so far... Wear protection only over those areas you want not to be injured. I don't think anyone expects a bad accident or can predict how they are going to fall or what they are going to hit. 99 out of 100 times you might not get a head injury, but do you really want to risk that 1 out of 100? There could be a metal post or fire hydrant or bike rack that you crash head first into. The skull is pretty dense, but a little bit of extra protection can't hurt? A helmet isn't going to guarantee that you're safe, but I remember reading someone who worked in an emergency room (I think it was maybe @DS?) mention about what happens to people who go without helmets. Don't be a statistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noisycarlos Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 I wish you a speedy recovery! I believe zig-zagging would help reduce the strain on the motor by increasing the distance the wheel has to travel (thus reducing the steepness). I've never tried it downhill, just going up. And it certainly has helped me go up some steep hills that my Ninebot was having trouble with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 8 minutes ago, noisycarlos said: zig-zagging would help reduce the strain on the motor by increasing the distance the wheel has to travel (thus reducing the steepness) @noisycarlos that makes a lot of sense, I've had to do that on a steep uphill too, otherwise the ninebot could not do it. I weigh about 200 pounds with gear, I am sure the lighter the weight the less strain on the batteries and motor. I am actually more afraid to go down a steep hill than up, because a cutout going down will shoot the wheel in front of you and you fall backwards. A forward cutout sends you forward and it's more natural to fall forward where you can at least see what's ahead of you. I had a hoverboard shoot out from under me once and fell backwards, it happened very fast, even though I was going very slow I still hurt my finger breaking my fall. Anyone seen the Mike Tyson hoverboard fall? He had no time to react. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 I pondered that very same question about which direction does a rider fall when their wheel cuts out going downhill while braking to maintain a constant speed. I think the general concensus was that the rider falls forwards due to forward momentum. I would have thought that if the wheel stops functioning, it might let loose and stop braking forces so the rider would fall backwards as the wheel speeds up. Maybe @ImpulseZeo9201 can tell us in which direction was his fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 1 minute ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I think the general concensus was that the rider falls forwards due to forward momentum. Really ? You're leaning backwards when braking, so if power to the wheel suddenly cuts, it's gonna shoot out ahead of you and drop you on your tail isn't it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 That's what I thought, but maybe if you've got a forward lean and are speeding up your centre of gravity is slightly ahead of the wheel. The wheel then is driving forwards to prevent your fall forwards. When it power is cut you fall forwards. I think more people tend to overspeed downhill and crash so falling forwards might be more common. But if you are going at say 25 kph downhill and then lean back to brake, you might fall backwards if your centre of gravity is behind the wheel's centre point? I don't know. Can we get some volunteers to shut down their wheels as they ride downhill in different situations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
who_the Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 2 hours ago, Cerbera said: Really ? You're leaning backwards when braking, so if power to the wheel suddenly cuts, it's gonna shoot out ahead of you and drop you on your tail isn't it ? Not really. Momentum is still carrying your entire body forward. So when your feet/lower body decelerate rapidly, your upper body will continue forward (thanks Sir Isaac) faster than your feet (which have suffered deceleration) and yes, you will fall forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 1 minute ago, who_the said: Not really. Momentum is still carrying your entire body forward. So when your feet/lower body decelerate rapidly, your upper body will continue forward (thanks Sir Isaac) faster than your feet (which have suffered deceleration) and yes, you will fall forward. OK, I shall defer to the logic of that Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jer Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Hi Sounds bad, wishing you a speedy recovery. Still not clear was this at the start of your ride? When the battery is full, the ability to brake will be limited as the recovered energy will have no where to go. Seems a little odd that gentle breaking at 6 mph would cause this. It would be useful if the app was not quite so erratic and gave power output/input. :-) (Mr Gotway please) I would recommend using a charge doctor to help extend the life of the battery and also limit the charge, so the battery is not completely charged, unless you need the full range there is no point in charging to 100%. Jer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik's Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 On 15.11.2016 at 2:24 AM, ImpulseZeo9201 said: I'm just recovering from a major fall. ... Will I ride again? Probably but avoid those hills Wish you a quick recovery! That's the spirit! That sounds like a bad fall and thinking about the slow speed you had downhill - it could easily be, as a few other people mentioned, an overcharging problem caused by regenerative braking... Overcharging protection that cuts the power is evil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bram Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Sorry to hear about your fall, I hope you recover quickly mate! In stead of zig zagging down a steep hill maybe going down backwards would be an option? That way if the wheel gives out because of to much breaking you you will fall forwards. I Don't own a wheel yet but from that's what I thought when reading the comment, so maybe it doesn't make practical sense :P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 These wheels need some sort of built-in data logger to track the last five minutes of readings so a forensic analysis can be done after the fact. I know @steve454 has mention that the Ninebot has some sort of Blackbox feature in the app that can send some data home. I haven't seen it in the app, but I do recall seeing some data files that someone posted. I would be curious to find out what exactly happened with @ImpulseZeo9201's accident. Was it an overcharge situation, over current BMS shutdown, or too much weight causing magnetic slip to occur? What happens when the electromagnetic coils are over powered by too much weight? Is it like when @Cloud got his wheel stuck under a bar chair resulting in blown mosfets? In Impulse's case he mentioned the wheel was still spinning and beeping so burnt MOSFETS shouldn't be the case? The motor would be resistant to spinning wouldn't it if the MOSFETs were damaged. I wonder how the firmware responds to a weight overload situation in a case like this. Wouldn't a BMS cutoff require the wheel's power to be cycled to reactivate it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 18 minutes ago, Bram said: Sorry to hear about your fall, I hope you recover quickly mate! In stead of zig zagging down a steep hill maybe going down backwards would be an option? That way if the wheel gives out because of to much breaking you you will fall forwards. I Don't own a wheel yet but from that's what I thought when reading the comment, so maybe it doesn't make practical sense :P. That's funny, backwards. I think that's the hardest skill to learn. Going down a public street backwards without being able to see where you're going. Good one. Hurry up and get your wheel so you can join in the fun. ankle supports .. I like that. I'll be looking for some for myself. helmets, yes, it just takes that one " oh shit" accident to make you wish you had worn a simple bike helmet, if you still have a functioning brain to wish with. which part hits the ground first? Depends on the accident. Protect what you don't want to break. I like my ankles , knees, elbows, head and wrists, I use them all regularly. eucs don't have to roll in balance mode, to shoot off down hill. They can tumble like rocks in a Star Trek episode. One bad bounce and they're off, gathering deadly momentum. Or slide on their sides mowing people down as they go. It's hard to argue with a 50lb projectile, ask any musketeer. Mr. OP. So sorry to hear of you extensive injuries. It sound like you were doing the right thing, slow and steady, and all that. How would you know it would shut down on you like that. I too, didn't find this forum until after I bought my ks14c. Since I have been reading the threads, I have learned a lot. overcurent protection: in other systems where overcurent is a problem, a " dump" is often provided. It is sometimes a simple high resistance heating element that will take literally kilowatts of energy continuously, and turn it into heat. Can one of you EUC electrical geniuses (genie?) design something like this as an add on? Maybe put it near the riders calf so he knows he's in overcharge mode ( ouch) Or build in a kettle to brew up a cup of tea? That last one was a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: the Ninebot has some sort of Blackbox feature in the app that can send some data home. That feature didn't appear until until about two app upgrades ago and I am on firmware 1.4.0. Maybe it only works with the latest firmware update, I know you said you keep yours on the original firmware because it works well for you. If @ImpulseZeo9201 has it it is in the device settings screen right under riding settings. That is on an android phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomad Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Usually you fall forward because the air resistance makes you lean forward or the wheel hits something. But it's hard to say in this case.. Look at what happens when overleaning to the side through a turn, it looses grip and slides out from under you, you don't fly over it. When the wheel cuts off it does not stop the motor in any way, if anyone didn't know that, try standing on your EUC when it's turned off you get the picture! When braking initially your body mass moves backward, or the wheel moves forward, in relation to each other (it's the same movement as backward acceleration). In this first part you would just keep falling if the wheel can't push back enough. But then as you ease off the braking and approach your lower desired speed the reverse movement happens. In this last part, if you get that far, you can fall forward, maybe... Low steady speed downhill braking, if that's what happened here, is different because not much leaning goes on? If air resistance is low and speed is not changing you can fall either way. But as you press with your heels downhill likely the pedals will rotate backwards if it cuts off. It seems the power draw was prolonged and not changing much, there was no overpower or overheat warning alarm, so I also think it likely was the overcharge protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 11 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: A helmet isn't going to guarantee that you're safe, but I remember reading someone who worked in an emergency room (I think it was maybe @DS?) mention about what happens to people who go without helmets. No Hunka, it was not me. I also read that post but unfortunately can't remember who wrote it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 25 minutes ago, DS said: No Hunka, it was not me. I also read that post but unfortunately can't remember who wrote it. The only thing to make euc safe for everyone is if euc factories stop bragging about max speed and instead invent stronger engines motherboards , larger battery packs with higher C values and use this strengt to improve safety instead of max speed with cut outs and broken bones , this should be like 1+1=2 but it isnt right now , its more like 1+1=5 , I suggest max speed should be 35-40 kmh with this new improvements larger strengt , its about how to make euc as an serious safe vehicle in traffic for everyone instead of a toy to use in the backyard for kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 11 hours ago, steve454 said: Anyone seen the Mike Tyson hoverboard fall? He had no time to react. I will give a rep to anyone that can post a gif of that. It was priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 1 minute ago, Donafello said: I will give a rep to anyone that can post a gif of that. It was priceless Tyson on wheels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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