EUC Practical Skills Course

[Jonathan Tolhurst]

Does anyone have any thoughts about what kind of material/manoeuvres could be included in a very basic EUC practical test to demonstrate basic rider competency?

I was having a look at: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycling-in-london/cycle-skills and I understand Project 42 occasionally run "Academy" days in London.

@Hunka Hunka Burning Love started a thread on a basic theory test: 

In the future, if riders are able to demonstrate a basic set of skills/competencies (by completing some kind of certified course) then it may facilitate acceptance of EUCs by the insurance industry*? * In the UK, the main barrier to this is the legal situation.

Maybe the community could come up with a half day programme that could be easily adapted to run anywhere in the world (with a set of cones in a park/basketball court)?

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I think a major difficulty would be to find a proper organizatoin who would be able to conduct the test/course as the numbers of EUC riders likely isn't very high except in places like China and France in some cities.  For motorcycles, I think usually the motor associations like AAA have programs and certifications that they have in addition to their regular car driving instruction programs.  EUC are not quite mainstream so I think that is a barrier to the adoption of education and certification programs for them.  You would also need an experienced rider to conduct the course and skill test.  Maybe if experienced riders were to volunteer their time as instructors that would work, but what is the process to get a program into place even if we had a well defined set of course goals, instructional material, exams, etc?

It's not a problem to put these together certainly as there are many smart people on the board.  I think it would be difficult though to convince a certifying body to adopt a program unless there are proven numbers to justify the costs involved in doing so.  Even if we could get a program going, if government bodies simply declare them illegal to ride unless on private property, I don't know whether being insured and skill certified will make a big difference to them.  It seems like a catch 22 where if it's illegal, how can you certify them with a course and insurance?

[Jonathan Tolhurst]

@Hunka Hunka Burning Love I agree with your comments - unless riding is legal, a certified course would be immaterial and you will (logically) be unable to get insurance for riding. What I'm trying to do is write an options paper to facilitate lobbying for a change in the law, (primarily aimed at the UK). At the moment I'm trying to go though all of the barriers and enablers, one of which could be some kind of course/test/certification to allow a rider to demonstrate competency in the skills required for safe and considerate riding. 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

13 hours ago, Jonathan Tolhurst said:

Does anyone have any thoughts about what kind of material/manoeuvres could be included in a very basic EUC practical test to demonstrate basic rider competency?

In that case, more theory would be beneficial I think as the concepts of maximum speed, reserve speed and safe cruising speed might be unclear to some.  People see a manufacturer specification and often think that speed claim applies to anyone who rides the wheel without taking into consideration rider weight, surface incline, motor variation, battery state, wind conditions, ambient temperature, acceleration demand, etc.  They often think tiltback will save them, or they set it inappropriately if at all.

Emergency braking without MOSFET damage and obstacle avoidance should be covered in a practical test.  Riding in a straight line, maybe have an instructor roll a soccer ball suddenly into the pathway.  On grass or if a gym mat is available teach some basics about how to fall off and roll.  Basic safety equipment and its importance should be covered.  Show photos of the various injuries here on the forum.  I can't recall exactly, but I think @Jurgen almost lost his leg in an EUC accident riding a generic wheel.

Sharp right angle turns should be covered between various sized sidewalk sizes.  Launches and dismounts on flat surfaces as well as inclined hills in both directions and at various angles to the hill need to be practiced hands free.  Proper pedestrian passing and ettiquette should be reviewed.  Wind gust and umbrella riding manage might be touched upon in the theory portion.

Riding over bumps or irregular terrain should be covered as well as using the legs as shock absorbers might be a good idea to check.  I found riding up sloped curbs practice comes in handy.  I used to scrape pedals, but now I can tackle most sloped curbs at various approach angles easily.  

Super slow speed riding practice could be tested.  A student should be able to ride behind an instructor walking at a regular pace.  Also coming to a complete stop without dismounting for a second and going might be a good practice to try.

[Rehab1]

16 hours ago, Jonathan Tolhurst said:

Does anyone have any thoughts about what kind of material/manoeuvres could be included in a very basic EUC practical test to demonstrate basic rider competency?

I was having a look at: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycling-in-london/cycle-skills and I understand Project 42 occasionally run "Academy" days in London.

@Hunka Hunka Burning Love started a thread on a basic theory test: 

In the future, if riders are able to demonstrate a basic set of skills/competencies (by completing some kind of certified course) then it may facilitate acceptance of EUCs by the insurance industry*? * In the UK, the main barrier to this is the legal situation.

Maybe the community could come up with a half day programme that could be easily adapted to run anywhere in the world (with a set of cones in a park/basketball court)?

 

You would be a perfect candidate to get the ball rolling in the UK. I think both a written and practical test would be helpful just like obtaining a license or permit for operating for a car, motorcycle, boat, jet ski, etc. As far as the practical side of the test we all know how important it is being able to ride very slow like @Hunka Hunka Burning Love mentioned while staying in complete control. Maybe a course layout featuring maneuverability cones and situational scenarios like approaching a crowd pedestrians and demonstrating the safe methods for allowing the right of way might be beneficial. 

[Frode]

Dont take the fun away from the EUCs. I believe that a mandatory course and/or test will mean the certain death for the interest in EUCs (except for a very few die hards, probably the ones that already have larned it without a course). Voluntary courses could be of interest for some, for more advanced skills, trics and such. In my opinion that is...

After all it's only a unicycle driven by a relatively small elecriv motor. Talking about the EUCs like they are as dangerous as motorcycles and cars (which they obviously are not!) will just add to the difficulties convincing legislators and politicians they should make them as legal as bicycles (or at least as legal as electric bicycles). Talk to them as if they are dangerous and they start to beleive they are dangerous. They are not!

[cloudust]

@Frode I think it's the other way round. Tests can promote riding safety. Dutch children have to pass cycle tests before they can ride on the road alone. 

Besides, once PLEV is in place in 2018, people can ride EUC (declared PLEV) legally on the bicycle lanes and pavement in EU.

[Frode]

42 minutes ago, cloudust said:

Dutch children have to pass cycle tests before they can ride on the road alone. 

Children yes, but grown up people? But children are not allowed to ride EUCs, at least not in my country. You have to be 16 years old. And they are not legally allowed to be able to exceed 20 km/h. Because EUCs are beleived to be too dangerous.

42 minutes ago, cloudust said:

people can ride EUC (declared PLEV) legally on the bicycle lanes and pavement in EU.

In my country they are obliged to use roads (and limited to roads with speed limit up to 60 km/h). They can however be riden on sidewalks if - and only if there are few people walking there. You are not allowed to ride on left side of road, on roads where motorised wehicles (for example cars) are not allowed, against traffic in one way roads, on trails in the woods...you can however go these places with bikes and e-bikes! EUCs are looked upon as dangerous machinery and in fact regulated by the same laws as steam-rolers, dumpers and excavators in traffic (which also do not need license plates) with some very few exceptions. The most ridiculos thing is that you actually by law have to mount a bicycle bell or a horn on it to be legal. I can yell louder than a bell.

And don't you dear to sniff on a beer before riding an EUC (a bike or e-bike is however OK). You might end up loosing your drivers license (for your car) and get a heavy penaty. There is already one verdict on exactely that, and it went all the way to prime court.

[Smoother]

@Frode there is no fun in EUCing if you aren't legally allowed to do it.  @Jonathan Tolhurst Is looking for a way to resuscitate UK EUCing, because right now it's dead on the operating table.  Any efforts to revive EUCing in the UK could be beneficial in other countries where EUCing is or will be In Danger.

i propose an international organisation to standardise testing, and license issuing, similar to licensing in sports like hang gliding and paragliding. An international body would have many more members that individual country organisations, and acceptance of the testing and licensing would be easier in country X if country Y and Z were already onboard.  The danger of individual country based organisations is also similar to the problems in hang gliding and paragliding, were those with a specific country license sometimes have to get a second conversation license or international license to fly in another country, as the criteria are different from country to country.  

[Frode]

9 minutes ago, Smoother said:

@Frode there is no fun in EUCing if you aren't legally allowed to do it.  @Jonathan Tolhurst Is looking for a way to resuscitate UK EUCing, because right now it's dead on the operating table.  Any efforts to revive EUCing in the UK could be beneficial in other countries where EUCing is or will be In Danger.

i propose an international organisation to standardise testing, and license issuing, similar to licensing in sports like hang gliding and paragliding. An international body would have many more members that individual country organisations, and acceptance of the testing and licensing would be easier in country X if country Y and Z were already onboard.  The danger of individual country based organisations is also similar to the problems in hang gliding and paragliding, were those with a specific country license sometimes have to get a second conversation license or international license to fly in another country, as the criteria are different from country to country.  

I know, understand and support the legalizing of EUCs. I don't however think it is vice to look at EUCs from the perspective of them being in need for regulation because they are dangerous. They need to follow rules to be predictable to other traffic. I look at EUCs as being much less dangerous than bicycles. I would rather prefer being overrun by rider on an EUC hiting me at 30 km/h than the same rider with a bicycle hiting me at the same speed (and 30 km/h is not very fast on a bicycle).

Comparing falling off an EUC to falling down with a hang-glider or para-glider is just exactly what I don't want to be done. I can stumble and fall under the wheels of a trailer. It doesn't mean I need a lisence to walk with shoes.

[Frode]

I could also mention that in my country (Norway) the needed courses to drive a moped (max 50cc, max 50km/h) cost you about €750 if you don't have any drivers license from another vehicle already. If you have a license (for example for a car), you don't need any course. Why would I need one for EUC? I just played with it on a safe place for about 3 hours before I went on a 1 km trip. No need to throw away €500+ for that...and a heavier course with an exam would cost a lot more...(for someone to actually make a living from such courses - there won't be too many of us wanting one...)

[Smoother]

Bicycles, cars, motorcycles, aeroplanes, alcohol, and tobacco can all kill you.  Even walking, as you pointed out.  But all these things share four things in common. 1. They have all been around for over 100 years. 2. They are depended on by billions of people. 3. They have big money lobbyists behind them. 4. They employ hundreds of thousands of people around the world.  Alcohol is worse for you than marijuana but alcohol creates thousands of jobs, billions of krone ( thought you'd like that) of business and billions in taxes.  That's why alcohol is still legal almost everywhere.  Same for cigarettes.  Cars and motorcycles are dangerous to the user and others.  That's why one needs proof that one can operate them safely.  Prove that, and someone will insure you.  Keep out of trouble long enough and they will charge you less to insure you.  Get in too many wrecks, or drink and drive ( see, I said alcohol was dangerous) and you have proved that you aren't safe after all.  They take away your license, increase you insurance or even deny renewal of coverage altogether.

now. Enter the EUC.  No lobbyists, no friends in government, don't employ many people and 99.9% of them in "another country" .  Don't generat significant tax revenue, fall over if stationary, fly away if rider falls off, travel very fast, especially on side walk where bikes aren't even allowed, no actual brakes., no visible way to steer, not certified road worthy, uninsurable, no way of knowing if the rider is an idiot or a master eucer. There's not much there we can change, but if we can show law enforcement that we have passed a test and have proved ability and knowledge of rights of way, and avoiding accidents.  Then how is that a bad thing?  I have a car licenses, and I still enjoy driving.  I have a motorcycle license and I still enjoy riding, heck I even had a shooting license ( when I lived I. Texas) and I still enjoyed shooting.  Having a license does not take the fun out of things.

and to answer your question about moped riding on a car license. The answer is simple, if you have a car license you have already proved that you know the rules of the road and how to control a large heavy, fast, dangerous device safety around other people.. After that riding a moped is easy. And besides, it's only 50cc.  Notice that if it bigger, and faster, then they want to make sure you are safe there too, by getting a motorcycle license. But riding a EUC, there's no precedent for that, you may know the rules of the road, but can you ride a EUC safely.  A license would answer that question to anyone in authority who asks. Phew. ?

[Flash]

2 hours ago, Smoother said:

Bicycles, cars, motorcycles, aeroplanes, alcohol, and tobacco can all kill you.  Even walking, as you pointed out.  But all these things share four things in common. 1. They have all been around for over 100 years. 2. They are depended on by billions of people. 3. They have big money lobbyists behind them. 4. They employ hundreds of thousands of people around the world.  Alcohol is worse for you than marijuana but alcohol creates thousands of jobs, billions of krone ( thought you'd like that) of business and billions in taxes.  That's why alcohol is still legal almost everywhere.  Same for cigarettes.  Cars and motorcycles are dangerous to the user and others.  That's why one needs proof that one can operate them safely.  Prove that, and someone will insure you.  Keep out of trouble long enough and they will charge you less to insure you.  Get in too many wrecks, or drink and drive ( see, I said alcohol was dangerous) and you have proved that you aren't safe after all.  They take away your license, increase you insurance or even deny renewal of coverage altogether.

now. Enter the EUC.  No lobbyists, no friends in government, don't employ many people and 99.9% of them in "another country" .  Don't generat significant tax revenue, fall over if stationary, fly away if rider falls off, travel very fast, especially on side walk where bikes aren't even allowed, no actual brakes., no visible way to steer, not certified road worthy, uninsurable, no way of knowing if the rider is an idiot or a master eucer. There's not much there we can change, but if we can show law enforcement that we have passed a test and have proved ability and knowledge of rights of way, and avoiding accidents.  Then how is that a bad thing?  I have a car licenses, and I still enjoy driving.  I have a motorcycle license and I still enjoy riding, heck I even had a shooting license ( when I lived I. Texas) and I still enjoyed shooting.  Having a license does not take the fun out of things.

and to answer your question about moped riding on a car license. The answer is simple, if you have a car license you have already proved that you know the rules of the road and how to control a large heavy, fast, dangerous device safety around other people.. After that riding a moped is easy. And besides, it's only 50cc.  Notice that if it bigger, and faster, then they want to make sure you are safe there too, by getting a motorcycle license. But riding a EUC, there's no precedent for that, you may know the rules of the road, but can you ride a EUC safely.  A license would answer that question to anyone in authority who asks. Phew. ?

Hold your horses

It's the opposite

EUC is good for the enviroment , for every user that take euc instead of a car suv bus will prevent smog pollution in the citys and the world it also comply with all the global warming problems , it's a huge improvement to go from fossile fuel car to electric euc.

Licence for euc ? , no why ?   there is no licence for bicycles with or without electric engine , it's the low speed that sets the laws rules
People don't die going on euc and they dont kill other people , even if an drunk idiot drive euc , this discussion is a storm in a waterglass , compared with a bicycle you must learn before you go on an euc or it will be painful , fear of falling into georges private bush will make everyone the best euc driver , this works better than expensive regulations

[Frode]

Soon, everything will be defined as dangerous, except to lie in bed. It is not because we are doing more and more dangerous things, but because the level of what is percepted as dangerous is getting lower and lower. The most dangerous thing you can do is to live, because from that you are doomed to die. So you therefore need a license to live...or not?

[Flash]

It's okej to spread nuclear waste from nuclear powerplants but its not legal to take a shit in the forrest even if it is the best for nature and plants

They talk , brainwash people every day about smog pollution and global warming , okej then , give us some proof that it is not just another lie ,
let us use our EUCs and save the world  

The police chases motocross drivers going in the mountain having fun , they say they scare everyone and destroy , meanwhile our government want's to help
isis murderers extremists coming back to sweden from insane religious war with jobs apartments money , ofcourse real swedes are upset and angry about this ,
so how can our political leaders be so f.. stupid all the time ?  how is it possible ?
My idea is that all the clever intelligent people will have a job right after school and the rest , all the idiots become politicians and they are so incredible stupid so they are dangerous for country and people.

But still the police have not stopped me on my KingSong , probably because I know what im doing and I can speak for myself and its so slow speed , maybe the police to want's to save our world ?

And after all , it is legal and have the same rights as bicycles  =  max 25 kmh

EUC is also a wonderful vehicle for enslaved discriminated muslim woman in Saudi Arabia and other female hating countries where females are not
allowed to drive cars and dancing listening to music , now they can dance away on an euc in burka and travel everywere in the world



 

[Jurgen]

On 11/13/2016 at 8:20 PM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

In that case, more theory would be beneficial I think as the concepts of maximum speed, reserve speed and safe cruising speed might be unclear to some.  People see a manufacturer specification and often think that speed claim applies to anyone who rides the wheel without taking into consideration rider weight, surface incline, motor variation, battery state, wind conditions, ambient temperature, acceleration demand, etc.  They often think tiltback will save them, or they set it inappropriately if at all.

Emergency braking without MOSFET damage and obstacle avoidance should be covered in a practical test.  Riding in a straight line, maybe have an instructor roll a soccer ball suddenly into the pathway.  On grass or if a gym mat is available teach some basics about how to fall off and roll.  Basic safety equipment and its importance should be covered.  Show photos of the various injuries here on the forum.  I can't recall exactly, but I think @Jurgen almost lost his leg in an EUC accident riding a generic wheel.

Sharp right angle turns should be covered between various sized sidewalk sizes.  Launches and dismounts on flat surfaces as well as inclined hills in both directions and at various angles to the hill need to be practiced hands free.  Proper pedestrian passing and ettiquette should be reviewed.  Wind gust and umbrella riding manage might be touched upon in the theory portion.

Riding over bumps or irregular terrain should be covered as well as using the legs as shock absorbers might be a good idea to check.  I found riding up sloped curbs practice comes in handy.  I used to scrape pedals, but now I can tackle most sloped curbs at various approach angles easily.  

Super slow speed riding practice could be tested.  A student should be able to ride behind an instructor walking at a regular pace.  Also coming to a complete stop without dismounting for a second and going might be a good practice to try.

Nope, I don't do 'generics' stuf, because it equals to cheap, nasty, and risky

So, nothing wrong with me legs (don't remember who it was).