Kingsong KS 14 hard on my ankle bones ( newbee opinion)

[Smoother]

I'm new to EUC, Just unboxed ks14c (340wh, 800w).

In my preparation  for this moment I have watched countless YouTube vids and read loads of stuff, here and elsewhere.  My "studies" have lead me to a personal opinion that allowing the top of the unit to wobble from side to side looks like a detriment to learning.  Experienced riders seem to use the wobble to their advantage, as I'm sure most of you do.  But It looked like beginners were being hampered by it and that's why I didn't pull the trigger on a nine bot e+ from Ian? At Speedywheels because it just looked too slim at the top (lovely looking machine though, and great guy). So, for the extra width ( and other reasons) I opted for the 14c.

So I'm standing on it for the first time, trying to get my calves close enough to press against the pads, to stop the unit wobbling left to right, and my ankle bones are dug into the side of the unit, causing pain.  Tried different shoes; no difference.  Tried placing feet further out but now I have an exaggerated knock kneed stance which I am not going out in public with (looks like I need the toilet).  Grabbed some pairs of  thickish socks and placed them between calves and factory pads, AHHHH! So much better.  So here's a question, does anybody at the factory ACTUALLY test their designs before mass producing them?  My ankle bones hit the case exactly where the case becomes wide.  So wearing lifted shoes would not help, and even in socks the contact point is still there.  And no, I don't have unusually proportioned feet or ankles. I thought the "ubiquitous box with a wheel" look, shared by so many EUC's, including 14c looked ridiculously wide, but OMG! Now I'm standing on one, I need it to be 2 to 3 inches wider! ( at the top at least, or 2 inches slimmer around the ankle area)

I've read about and seen people using knee pads in this area, although the reason given was pain relief, not wobble resistance.  Can I be the only person who has crushed their ankle bones into the unit in order to get a grip on the top?

When you buy a bike. You can adjust the seat, and control levers and the handle bars, and if buying from a performance manufacturer, you can  select from various frame sizes to suit your body. How come nothing about the physical EUC unit is adjustable? ( software settings, and tire pressure excluded).  Would adjustable calf pads be too much to ask?

now, as a temporary fix, I'll go waste money on some thick knee pads and wear them on my calves like a dork, but I'm seeking a more permanent solution.  And one just came to me.

im thinking, to preserve the look of the machine, I could peel off the factory calf pads, place additional pads (origin yet to be determined) in their place and glue the factory pads back over the top to give a near factory look.

QUESTIONS:

Has anyone else compensated for width and what did you do? Did it work?

 

 

 

[Cloud]

Ask @fearedbliss he has resolved this issue by getting some kind of padded brace for his feet

 ow, what i can tell you is two fold. I went thru this same problem for the first 2-3 week and my ankles were bleeding at the bone. I co tinued as i loved riding so much that this almost didnt matter. But i was uoset with the situation just like you are.

on the good side, after 3 weeks i grew callouses on the bone and the bleeding/ pain stopped. So it will stop soon and you wont have a problem any more. Doesnt mean you have to suffer for 3 weeks. Contact @fearedbliss

[MaxLinux]

29 minutes ago, Cloud said:

I went thru this same problem for the first 2-3 week and my ankles were bleeding at the bone.

I had this problem on the IPS Lhotz. Interestingly, unlike Smoother's problem with the "box with a wheel" style, I never had this problem on the 14-inch TG wheels or 16-inch IPS 121. However, on the IPS 191 (Lhotz), my ankles pressed against the body of the wheel in a very hard, uncomfortable place. My ankles never bled at the bone like Cloud's, but the skin would be scraped up, right through my socks. I actually had forgotten about it until reading this thread, because it no longer bothers me. I don't know how long ago it stopped bothering me, but long enough ago that I had forgotten about it. So I have a feeling that your ankles will get used to it after a while too.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Ble... bleeding at the bone? 

Man you guys are riding hardcore.  Pad that EUC up with some foam pieces!  It's like heaven for your legs.  I hardly touch the sides of my Ninebot any more while riding except for a little contact with the inner upper calves.  Sure I'll grip on going over bumps, but usually in cruising mode there's a little bit of space in between there.

[16bitSprite]

I do remember getting sore ankles and calves when I first started riding too. Never to the point of bleeding. Just bruising. Even after padding it still hurt. (I remember doing the thick sock thing as well). I think it disappears when you get more confident on the wheel. You hardly wobble or touch the sides at all over time. Just keep at it. The pain will stop eventually as your skills increase.

[Raptor]

4 hours ago, Smoother said:

I'm new to EUC, Just unboxed ks14c (340wh, 800w).

In my preparation  for this moment I have watched countless YouTube vids and read loads of stuff, here and elsewhere.  My "studies" have lead me to a personal opinion that allowing the top of the unit to wobble from side to side looks like a detriment to learning.  Experienced riders seem to use the wobble to their advantage, as I'm sure most of you do.  But It looked like beginners were being hampered by it and that's why I didn't pull the trigger on a nine bot e+ from Ian? At Speedywheels because it just looked too slim at the top (lovely looking machine though, and great guy). So, for the extra width ( and other reasons) I opted for the 14c.

So I'm standing on it for the first time, trying to get my calves close enough to press against the pads, to stop the unit wobbling left to right, and my ankle bones are dug into the side of the unit, causing pain.  Tried different shoes; no difference.  Tried placing feet further out but now I have an exaggerated knock kneed stance which I am not going out in public with (looks like I need the toilet).  Grabbed some pairs of  thickish socks and placed them between calves and factory pads, AHHHH! So much better.  So here's a question, does anybody at the factory ACTUALLY test their designs before mass producing them?  My ankle bones hit the case exactly where the case becomes wide.  So wearing lifted shoes would not help, and even in socks the contact point is still there.  And no, I don't have unusually proportioned feet or ankles. I thought the "ubiquitous box with a wheel" look, shared by so many EUC's, including 14c looked ridiculously wide, but OMG! Now I'm standing on one, I need it to be 2 to 3 inches wider! ( at the top at least, or 2 inches slimmer around the ankle area)

I've read about and seen people using knee pads in this area, although the reason given was pain relief, not wobble resistance.  Can I be the only person who has crushed their ankle bones into the unit in order to get a grip on the top?

When you buy a bike. You can adjust the seat, and control levers and the handle bars, and if buying from a performance manufacturer, you can  select from various frame sizes to suit your body. How come nothing about the physical EUC unit is adjustable? ( software settings, and tire pressure excluded).  Would adjustable calf pads be too much to ask?

now, as a temporary fix, I'll go waste money on some thick knee pads and wear them on my calves like a dork, but I'm seeking a more permanent solution.  And one just came to me.

im thinking, to preserve the look of the machine, I could peel off the factory calf pads, place additional pads (origin yet to be determined) in their place and glue the factory pads back over the top to give a near factory look.

QUESTIONS:

Has anyone else compensated for width and what did you do? Did it work?

 

 

 

Later, when the driving ability is clear, all the feet do not touch the wheel housing . Therefore, the shape of the housing is not essential at all .
Top of the unit to wobble from side to side get the for your body wrong tilt position ! You really should not rely on a lot of toes and your body would need more bent front.
At the moment you drive like a very upright because you do not dare to be sloping forward .This, unfortunately, is normal reaction, is the first for all so !~
The result is like being on a motorcycle wrongly designed/adjusted caster for front wheel ! The problem disappears for all wheels, than you dare to tilt forward and do not push the toes ! 
Then you will discover in addition to not have to hold on to the housing !Low housing and sharp edge a little of pain only can be a on one leg ride and jumping for it, if you start driving .

[Keith]

@Smoother, my first EUC was a KS-14C exactly a year ago and, yes it hurt my ankles when I first used it. I simply wore walking boots to protect them and continued to use boots for some months. Now a year later, it doesn't matter what I wear, anything is comfortable. Personally, I think you are misunderstanding "allowing the top to wobble". That is not the case as such. As your skill improves, your ability to put your weight evenly on both feet also improves and there is no need to grip the sides of the wheel at all. Additionally, you can also turn faster if you allow the wheel to lean more than you are which, of course, can only be done if you don't grip the sides. This "more relaxed" style also allows the wheel to handle bumps without upsetting your balance i.e. your legs become part of the suspension system.

However, every wheel is different, last month I hired an IPS LHotz for a day and rode it over very rough terrain which forced me to grip the sides harder. By the end of the two hour ride my calves were in agony because the LHotz has a hard curved pad near the top of the wheel which pressed into a different area of my leg. 

Bottom line is that it is often only a case of getting used to a wheel, there is not, and never has been, any extra padding on my KS-14 and I very much doubt I would have had to do anything about the IPS LHOTZ if I had ridden it for a few more days. 

Once you fit padding, that is what you will get used to and it will become, and remain, a necessity.

[Smoother]

Ok guys, lots of good input here.  I'll take it all on board.  You guys know what you are talking about so as your student I'll listen.  I won't modify my unit.  The hiking boots idea sounds appealing, almost as much as bleeding to the bone doesn't ?  I observed that wobble room looks like agood thing once skill level improves.  So that's what I'll do, wobble wobble wobble....skill skill skill

[Mono]

For the first week I was wearing football (hard plastic) shin guards turned inwards to make the contact point to the wheel. Then I fitted the shin guards in the same position on the wheel for a couple of months (the straps of the shin guards worked perfectly well to fix them to the wheel). Now, over a year and +300h later, I still have additional soft padding on the wheel, because I find the original padding just not sufficiently comfortable (not a KS14 though). As I don't care for the looks, additional padding is simple to fit with duct tape.

[Obly]

Hi @Smoother, sounds like we're in similar places--I picked up a KS-14C as my first (and so far only) wheel a few months ago and have been steadily learning how to ride. I had a similar experience as you--when first learning, you can't help but try to grip the wheel tightly with your calves, and that led to very painful ankle bone contact (and generally sore legs to boot). I tried a bunch of different hacks in an attempt to get relief; at one point I took to wearing heavy, padded snow boots with towels wrapped around my calves--very comfy, but a real pain to put on and take off, and it got me some strange comments from onlookers during the summertime.

What finally worked best for me, FWIW, was to start wearing padded shin guards turned inwards. Not the hard, football-style kind, but the soft, martial arts-style that are held on with Velcro straps. They fit discreetly under any straight-cut or boot-cut pants, and made riding so much more comfortable that I still wear them now, even though I probably don't need them. With these, I can wear whatever kind of shoes I want, and it doesn't change the sleek shape of the wheel like extra padding would (which, BTW, I suspect is a main reason why the factory padding isn't bigger and bulkier).

Here's the kind that I bought, but nothing magical about these in particular; anything similar would do: https://www.amazon.com/whistlekick-Karate-Sparring-Guards-Medium/dp/B00WXHIQOA/ref=lp_12581118011_1_5?srs=12581118011&ie=UTF8&qid=1477581112

Also, others have said this, but as a recent new learner, I'll jump on the bandwagon: Don't focus so much on trying to put an iron grip on the wobbling, which is just a side effect of your developing balance and learner speed. As your balance becomes more sure and symmetrical, and you get up a little speed, the wheel will naturally resist wobbling and you won't even think about it anymore. I found that finding a comfortable, secure foot position--where I felt "locked in" to the wheel and able to accelerate and stop mostly with my feet--was way more key to early learning than anything else. Again FWIW, that ended up being much farther forward than I initially expected it would be, with the balls of my feet on the front edges of the pedals. Of course that could be a side effect of largish feet (U.S. 12) and the tiny KS pedals.

Good luck in your learning! It's worth it!

[The Fat Unicyclist]

22 hours ago, Keith said:

However, every wheel is different, last month I hired an IPS LHotz for a day...

Two questions...

1. What did you think of the Lhotz?
2. Where did you rent it from? 

[Smoother]

Right.  So I bought a set of rollerblading pads and a basic bike helmet, because basically I had none , and didn't want to be THAT GUY who breaks an arm and cracks his skull because he thought he knew better.  Martial art shin pads? Have to go back to store and look for them.  Sounds better than wearing hard shelled knee pads on my calves as I did last night.  Practice has been slow due to other commitments and lack of space. I've been practising in a tiny room, holding a low sideboard.  I  have about 5 feet of linear space. May get it out into the open today where wobble doesn't mean gouging up a sideboard or face planting into the dining table. I'll let it wobble away and rely on my practice strap to prevent excessive damage.  Anyone have a cheapo generic that passes around for newbies to learn on? Actually I'm only half joking.  I'm a member of a motorcycle forum where special tools are needed to remove the swing arm.  Someone bought the tools a while ago  and after using them, passes them on to the next member who needs them.  Of course $40 of tools is not the same as $300 of EUC.  But I guess that's what deposits are for.  Just rambling now. So I'll shut up.

oh yeah. I did find that my feet have to be a long way forward for correct balance, but the balance point tells you that naturally, or you just sail off backwards I guess.

[16bitSprite]

Usually a good place to practice is is a big open area with a wall to hang on to. You could try a car park and push a shopping trolley or pram (preferably without a baby in it)  around while you get your balance.

[SeabirdHH]

@Smoother ... for your ankle bones I recommend this: foam rubber 26 x 12 x 2 cm ... no more pain!

[Smoother]

Thanks @SeabirdHH.  I got an actual photo reply, my first.  That looks good, ankle protection AND calf support.  Hidden under trousers, no one would even know.

Didn't make it to sporting goods store to look for @Obly 's martial arts shin pads (one town over and not on the cards today). Did discover a single tennis wrist sweat band in a cupboard. Doubled and placed above an ankle bone it went a long way to alleviate the contact. Folded sock stood in on the other side. I think @SeabirdHH foam pads would work nicely and cost a fraction of more specialty stuff.  Just have to figure out where to get some. I know, a couple of large sponges, or just one carefully cut in half.

 

went out and found a nice basketball court surrounded by a elbow high fence.  Perfect . Full sun, no wind,  full pad and helmet, no clue what I was doing.  Man did I work up a sweat.  After about 90 minutes I could roll the length of the court, sometimes. Other times I couldn't make it 5 feet. Sometimes found I couldn't maintain forward progress and ground to a halt. Lower back was killing me.  Ankles? Not bad.  Calves? No problem ( wearing my knee pads inside again)  towards the end I was sharing the court with some kids playing football (soccer) which was cool, because they asked first.  Dodging a few wayward balls made it a little more interesting ( that sounded a little dirty didn't It! )

BTW. Any other newbies out there.  Don't listen when someone on YouTube says throw away the learning strap. It's there to stop you throwing you new shiny expensive toy down the road and making a mess of it. My strap prevented several runaway mishaps on that rough hard surface. 

[Keith]

3 hours ago, Smoother said:

BTW. Any other newbies out there.  Don't listen when someone on YouTube says throw away the learning strap. It's there to stop you throwing you new shiny expensive toy down the road and making a mess of it. My strap prevented several runaway mishaps on that rough hard surface. 

Well said, as this has been a bone of contention to me as well. The reason for the advice is people used it like reigns to help balance themselves, that is VERY counterproductive and will actually prevent you progressing. If held loosely it doesn't interfere with balancing but absolutely prevents the wheel turning into a projectile and damaging itself or someone/thing else.

[Mono]

14 minutes ago, Keith said:

to help balance themselves, that is VERY counterproductive

Do you have actual evidence that this is the case? 

[Smoother]

11 minutes ago, MoNo said:

Do you have actual evidence that this is the case? 

Actually I think I do.  On my second training session today I noticed that I was pulling up on the strap as I rode.  Because the strap tends to be towards the front of the handle when riding (or falling, in my case) I think I was pulling back on the reigns so to speak. Towards the end I remembered to relax the reign, and things seemed to go better. 

Strap still keeping the shiny side up.

I can glide up to 70 meters now, sometimes, 2 meters some other times. Baby steps, baby steps.  No pain or blood ? from ankles since padding my socks.  

[Obly]

25 minutes ago, MoNo said:

Do you have actual evidence that this is the case? 

Well, anecdotal evidence of N=1 -- this was definitely true for me. I found that even holding the strap loosely was impeding my progress; I was slumping my shoulders forward (bad posture) and had only one free arm to help balance myself. So, in an attempt to help protect the wheel, I eventually started clipping the strap to my belt instead of holding it. After that I could keep my shoulders back, head up, and balance with both arms -- made a world of difference in accelerating my progress.

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, Obly said:

Well, anecdotal evidence of N=1 -- this was definitely true for me. I found that even holding the strap loosely was impeding my progress; I was slumping my shoulders forward (bad posture) and had only one free arm to help balance myself. So, in an attempt to help protect the wheel, I eventually started clipping the strap to my belt instead of holding it. After that I could keep my shoulders back, head up, and balance with both arms -- made a world of difference in accelerating my progress.

Yes I recognise the slumped shoulders issue but at full length I could stand straight. Having only one balance arm, true too but I observe that all experienced riders don't t wave their arms around, so I strive not to do it too much.  On my better runs, my arms are mostly by my side, and this is only day one for me, excluding 20 minutes or so trying not to damage the sideboard in a tiny room.  I can't imagine having nearly 40lbs strapped to my middle when trying to run it off, but I'm glad it worked for you. 

[Mono]

8 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Actually I think I do.  On my second training session today I noticed that I was pulling up on the strap as I rode.  Because the strap tends to be towards the front of the handle when riding (or falling, in my case) I think I was pulling back on the reigns so to speak. Towards the end I remembered to relax the reign, and things seemed to go better. 

It seems difficult to say whether this affected your learning curve and if so in what direction. Playing the devils advocate, things going better afterwards could also be interpreted in that you learned something quickly.

[Mono]

On 10/28/2016 at 10:17 PM, Smoother said:

Yes I recognise the slumped shoulders issue but at full length I could stand straight. Having only one balance arm, true too but I observe that all experienced riders don't t wave their arms around, so I strive not to do it too much.  On my better runs, my arms are mostly by my side,

yes, I can imagine it is even an advantage to be forced to use only one arm, because it encourages or even forces the rider to find a different, more effective way to keep the balance (namely steering). 

Quote

and this is only day one for me, excluding 20 minutes or so trying not to damage the sideboard in a tiny room.  I can't imagine having nearly 40lbs strapped to my middle when trying to run it off, but I'm glad it worked for you. 

I once fell because I stumbled over the leash attached to my belt and the wheel. No serious injuries, but it wasn't too pleasant either. Since then I only looped the leash under my belt such that it could easily slip away, which does not always prevent a runaway (not sure if I had any). By now, 1+ year in the game, finally I trust the catching instincts of my feet.

[Smoother]

I had actually thought about attaching the strap to my belt before you brought up the subject.  After my last post I thought more about the whole issue.  I imagined a strap extension ( thin piece of rope that I held in my mouth, to allow 2 free arms and no danger of slumping.  Theory being; starting to fall, grab the easily accessible strap.  Not sure if I'll ever try it.  Just thinking outside the box ( with the wheel poking out of the bottom.

fyi. I found, for some reason I preferred the strap in my left hand. So when taking off with a railing assist from the left, I held the strap in my right hand and then transferred it once rolling.  Once, I dropped it and was afraid I would run over it, catapulting me into the air. Needless to say I jumped off quickly. But even then I noticed who difficult it was to capture the wheel without a strap. 

[Mono]

Right, I didn't use the original strap, but a 2m x 1cm packing strap, the one you can get in outdoor shops. 

[Obly]

Everyone learns a little differently, so right, do what works for you. I don't hold out my arms now, but at the time it was helpful in accomplishing what was, for me, the most important learning task, which was attuning my autonomic balance system (inner ear) to this new kind of equilibrium. I did try to follow advice about using steering for balance (i.e., deliberately steer in the direction you're falling), and it didn't help me progress at all. But once I had a sense of equilibrium, I made movements like that automatically.

The strap was always a bit of a pain. If I wanted to protect the wheel completely (no tip-overs at all), I had to keep it short, but then it was too short to ride comfortably, keep good posture, etc. So I had to keep it long, and the only real use was to stop the wheel from careening away completely--and for that, clipped to the belt worked fine. During the couple or so bad run-offs I had, the wheel tipped over and skidded to a halt quickly, so it never pulled me much. I might have gotten lucky though; I can see under the right (wrong?) circumstances getting tripped up. I don't use the strap at all anymore.